Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
LH707330 wrote:I'm curious to know why they have not adopted an industry-wide standard policy based on overall hours of PIC, SIC, turbine time, etc. Why should someone who's got 10k hours of experience get dinged if their carrier goes belly up? In most professions you can make lateral jumps if you've got the requisite experience, why not airlines?
TTailedTiger wrote:What happened with Delta and Pan Am as far as merging pilots? I read the book Sky Gods by Robert Gant and it said Delta only took the A310 pilots since that was the only fleet they were buying. How were the Pan Am pilots integrated once the A310 fleet was replaced with the 767? Did they go to the bottom or were they just given 767 spots?
Starlionblue wrote:Seniority lists become the only way to differentiate.
Starlionblue wrote:LH707330 wrote:I'm curious to know why they have not adopted an industry-wide standard policy based on overall hours of PIC, SIC, turbine time, etc. Why should someone who's got 10k hours of experience get dinged if their carrier goes belly up? In most professions you can make lateral jumps if you've got the requisite experience, why not airlines?
Because for an airline with 1000 first officers, we're all interchangeable or nearly so. If one guy has 10000 hours and has flown F-16s and another guy has 1000 hours and came from the cadet programme does not change rostering. FO is FO is FO.
Seniority lists become the only way to differentiate.
LCDFlight wrote:
Because ALPA style pilot groups are unionized, or quasi-unionized (Jetblue). Pilots do not want random people applying for the job they hold. So they make it very clear to their employer that they will not tolerate open market talent competition.
Even non-union workers get "dinged" when their employer goes belly-up. So the expectation otherwise is unrealistic.
acecrackshot wrote:LCDFlight wrote:
Because ALPA style pilot groups are unionized, or quasi-unionized (Jetblue). Pilots do not want random people applying for the job they hold. So they make it very clear to their employer that they will not tolerate open market talent competition.
Even non-union workers get "dinged" when their employer goes belly-up. So the expectation otherwise is unrealistic.
Just to update your data, JetBlue is an ALPA carrier, now.
Much of the drive to make seniority paramount is to depoliticize hiring/promotion and make safety decisions dispassionately to the facts, not to a particular managers whim.
The cartel theory of labor you suggest is both historically incorrect and functionally not true,
dstblj52 wrote:acecrackshot wrote:LCDFlight wrote:
Because ALPA style pilot groups are unionized, or quasi-unionized (Jetblue). Pilots do not want random people applying for the job they hold. So they make it very clear to their employer that they will not tolerate open market talent competition.
Even non-union workers get "dinged" when their employer goes belly-up. So the expectation otherwise is unrealistic.
Just to update your data, JetBlue is an ALPA carrier, now.
Much of the drive to make seniority paramount is to depoliticize hiring/promotion and make safety decisions dispassionately to the facts, not to a particular managers whim.
The cartel theory of labor you suggest is both historically incorrect and functionally not true,
Open market talent competitions for pilots result in less safe operations almost everywhere they exist
GalaxyFlyer wrote:dstblj52 wrote:acecrackshot wrote:
Just to update your data, JetBlue is an ALPA carrier, now.
Much of the drive to make seniority paramount is to depoliticize hiring/promotion and make safety decisions dispassionately to the facts, not to a particular managers whim.
The cartel theory of labor you suggest is both historically incorrect and functionally not true,
Open market talent competitions for pilots result in less safe operations almost everywhere they exist
Where do they exist and what have been the safety implications? You made the assertion, please back it up.
dstblj52 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:dstblj52 wrote:Open market talent competitions for pilots result in less safe operations almost everywhere they exist
Where do they exist and what have been the safety implications? You made the assertion, please back it up.
their common in the business jet world, and it tends to encourage limit pushing, flying over weight, moving through limits, ignoring mel's etc etc, are way more common on the bisjet side because the pilots pay packet is conditional on keeping the aircraft owner happy and he is the person demanding the push
GalaxyFlyer wrote:dstblj52 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Where do they exist and what have been the safety implications? You made the assertion, please back it up.
their common in the business jet world, and it tends to encourage limit pushing, flying over weight, moving through limits, ignoring mel's etc etc, are way more common on the bisjet side because the pilots pay packet is conditional on keeping the aircraft owner happy and he is the person demanding the push
Opinion, any facts, statistics, some other than your anecdotes? I spent a lot of time in corporate aviation and my experience is just the opposite—greater margins, less “bottom line” thinking. I’ve flown with a lot of operators in a prior career and I didn’t see it.
Look at the ASN records of in-production bizjets, Cessna 680 series and 750; Bomardier 300, 605/650 and Globals, Dassault 2000, 900 and 7X, Gulfstream G280, G550, G650–over 5,000 frames—3 fatal hull losses.