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Trimeresurus
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Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:37 pm

It seems like a common cause of airwreck, especially at night. Wikipedia defines it as "Spatial disorientation of an aviator is the inability to determine angle, altitude or speed. It is most critical at night or in poor weather, when there is no visible horizon, since vision is the dominant sense for orientation. " Angle, altitude and speed are all things that have had indicators in the cockpit since circa 1920?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlasjet_Flight_4203 This accident for example, lists spatial disorientation as the cause of controlled flight into terrain, even though the MD-83 was a capable enough aircraft to not to rely on the horizon recognition of the pilots during IFR flight. GPWS was apparently inop(I thought it was not a MEL item at night?) but on the mountains like that, I am not sure if it would have made a difference.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:09 am

Illusions can be very strong. Under stress, instinct is to believe the illusion.

The proper response is to take a breath and read the instruments. But it isn't always as easy as it sounds. I remember being in IMC in a light aircraft and my brain screaming at me that I was in a steep climb. It took some willpower to make myself believe the artificial horizon.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:10 am

Spend a few hours in cloud on the wing of the tanker, shuttling in for a refueling every 45-60 minutes. After awhile you’ll swear the tanker pilot is doing loops and rolls. Than, lose sight of the tanker on the boom, click off and try to remember to descend very carefully.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Spend a few hours in cloud on the wing of the tanker, shuttling in for a refueling every 45-60 minutes. After awhile you’ll swear the tanker pilot is doing loops and rolls. Than, lose sight of the tanker on the boom, click off and try to remember to descend very carefully.


Sounds rough... meanwhile, on the tanker we’re baking pizzas and cookies whilst plotting our next hang-out for wherever our destination holds :D
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VMCA787
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:20 am

Believe me, it is very easy! Years ago, I was number 2 on a F-4E cross country flight. We had one stop in ABQ and it was an early spring day with CBs in the vicinity. We had briefed "lost wingman procedures" in the departure briefing. As we descended into ABQ, the weather wasn't the best and we had to descend through a fairly thick undercast. As we made the descent, the natural tendency is to tuck it in so you don't lose sight of lead. At one point, I could have sworn we were ar 90 degrees of left bank and had a massive nose-up attitude. You really have to work to keep flying like that. I asked by GIB what we were doing and his only response was "just handing in there". That was probably the worst case of spatial disorientation I have ever experienced.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:38 am

It can be any combination of a few different things. Some illusions are absolutely crazy; you don't realize it until you actually experience them, and there's no way to really simulate some of them. The first time you actually can experience certain things properly is by being in the actual situation, at which point you'd hope your training kicks in but it obviously doesn't for everybody.

Training itself can be a variable; not every country or airline trains their pilots equally.

But it is very easy, even for me as a pilot but certainly for someone who isn't, to second-guess pilots who have actually experienced spatial disorientation. Air Disasters just ran an episode where the captain's IRU failed and showed the plane in a pitch up, so he immediately pushed the nose down trying to level off, but in actuality he was putting them in a dive. Meanwhile, the first officer was trying to do the opposite, as his IRU was working and his ADI showing the actual attitude, and both pilots ended up fighting each other all the way to the ground with neither of them even realizing it. It was dark and they apparently had the cockpit light on to do the approach brief, so they couldn't see the actual horizon. But their standby ADI was working the entire time.

It's easy to just look at that and say "why didn't *either* of them just look at their standby ADI??" And in this case, it was partly because they only had a very brief indication that there was an ADI mismatch before it went away in "declutter" mode. So sometimes there are problems with the design of the instruments themselves; if pilots are trained to look for something that points to the cause of an issue and it's not there, they're likely to rule that out as the cause of whatever problem they're having, even when that is exactly the problem they're having. They had no reason to think there was a problem with either of their ADI's, so no reason to look at the standby ADI. Both of them just kept trying to put in inputs that would fix what they were seeing in front of them.

As for the crash linked in the first post, I don't see from that summary how anyone came up with spatial disorientation as a cause. They had neither the CVR nor FDR, and there's nothing else at least in that summary that suggests spatial disorientation. But in addition to the CVR and FDR not working, neither was GPWS. So this plane had a *lot* of problems. Who knows what else was broken on it.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:01 am

Trimeresurus wrote:
It seems like a common cause of airwreck, especially at night. Wikipedia defines it as "Spatial disorientation of an aviator is the inability to determine angle, altitude or speed. It is most critical at night or in poor weather, when there is no visible horizon, since vision is the dominant sense for orientation. " Angle, altitude and speed are all things that have had indicators in the cockpit since circa 1920?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlasjet_Flight_4203 This accident for example, lists spatial disorientation as the cause of controlled flight into terrain, even though the MD-83 was a capable enough aircraft to not to rely on the horizon recognition of the pilots during IFR flight. GPWS was apparently inop(I thought it was not a MEL item at night?) but on the mountains like that, I am not sure if it would have made a difference.


Lots of good answers already.

What I like to add is, that the concept of spatial disorientation is very hard to grasp, if you haven't experienced it for yourself and in a real aircraft.
Before flying professionally, I couldn't understand as well how some of those accidents came about. For the amateur that I was it often sounds as "how can one be so stupid and/or negligent".

But especially in very dynamic situations like climbs and descents and within clouds and turbulence, in darkness, the landing lights flashingly illuminating clouds giving the impression of incredible speed and so on, you can be absolutely overwhelmed by sensory inputs your body is creating. And it is, in my opinion, one of the hardest things to ignore what your body tells you, but rather trust some pieces of colorful screens in front of you.

Had it once flying manually and raw data in IMC ouf of a field where the departure requires a steep climb due to mountains combined with a steep turn. However important to stay current on your manual skills, in hindsight it would have been wise to let the autopilot fly that portion of the flight rather than fighting your sensory impressions.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Spend a few hours in cloud on the wing of the tanker, shuttling in for a refueling every 45-60 minutes. After awhile you’ll swear the tanker pilot is doing loops and rolls. Than, lose sight of the tanker on the boom, click off and try to remember to descend very carefully.


Sounds rough... meanwhile, on the tanker we’re baking pizzas and cookies whilst plotting our next hang-out for wherever our destination holds :D


True dat!

OTOH, as a brand LT in the back seat of an F-100F, the front seater was a former KC-97 nav. We’re somewhere north of the Azores and his doing something with a chart and the ADF, soon pronounces were a good bit north of course, explaining the intricacies of CONSOLAN. The cell navs basically say, “shut up, we know what we’re doin’”. In awhile the STG VOR comes up and sure enough, the needle is about 20* to the right. They bought the beers in Madrid.

The flight I was thinking of was LPLA to home, a good 3 hours in cloud out of a 7.4 flight. Awful.

Depart Burke-Lakefront on a winter’s night. All city lights, quick climb to 2,000’ after a turn north into the void of a frozen Lake Erie. Not long ago a CJ plunged into the lake, killing all, on that departure, just stare at and become very trusting of the gauges.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:00 pm

During my flying training (admittedly only on bug smashers) I had a conversation about spatial awareness and for the next lesson we booked out an aircraft capable of all the IMC stuff and the instructor (who was about 80) asked me to look out the window whilst we flew through a cloud to see if I could feel the motion of the aircraft. He proceeded to do whatever maneuver it was which to me felt straight and level and we popped out the bottom of the cloud at what felt like about 60° nose down and going the other way. It was a powerful lesson in why VFR=VFR and IFR = IFR.

I was reading only last week about PVHD, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periphera ... on_display

This type of subliminal instrument seems incredibly powerful, I wonder if this type of thing could have benefits in civil aviation.

Fred
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:05 pm

Interesting on the A-10 PVHD, it was discussed but never installed in the fleet.we had a number of ground collisions when it appeared the pilot might have been looking over his shoulder just prior to crashing. Then GCAS was installed. The C-5 tried something similar with a barber pole on the glareshield, it moved and the pilot had to make it stop rolling.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:50 pm

Spatial d is a silent killer because it's the pilot's own body leading him/her down the primrose path. To survive a pilot must literally ignore his/her instincts/situational awareness and rely strictly on training - a process that isn't perfect due to differences in training and proficiency. Many moons ago, I had vertigo at night and in the weather in Afghanistan... Terrifying and I wasn't even in the driver's seat.

There's an approach into Al Dhafra Air Base, UAE, that has claimed 5 aircraft crashes since 1991 due to it's 'black hole' disorientation effects on aircrew and weird environmental aspects in the area. Last one was an American F-15E in 2012. And that's a jet with two crew members, outstanding situational awareness tools, as well as the power to get out of (most) bad situations. Front seater oriented off of power lines in the turn, not realizing the lines' orientation is exact opposite of his American 'normal' power lines and thought he was pulling towards the sky; back seater recognized, took control of the aircraft, and pulled something like 11 g's to recover but that one or two second hesitation was the difference between life and death. Back seater ended up punching both out after they hit the power line. Back seater went first and lived. Front seater went second and ejected into the ground.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
... They bought the beers in Madrid.


Sounds like he earned buying! Maybe he was the one baking?

flipdewaf wrote:
I was reading only last week about PVHD, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periphera ... on_display

This type of subliminal instrument seems incredibly powerful, I wonder if this type of thing could have benefits in civil aviation.

Fred


Cool device. Wiki is a bit wrong, though: the SR-71's PVD wasn't for air refueling as that's entirely visual, but rather for general orientation during night flying. Especially at high altitude cruise. The instrument panel lighting on that jet wasn't uniform and often times increasing one gauge would drown out others. Plus, all the nasty reflections off the window, helmet glass, etc, and reading the ADI could be dicey, especially whilst fighting an unstart. After a few crews got into severe attitudes at night, the 9th SRW asked Lockheed if there was a better way and the PVD is what they came up with. Amazingly elegant piece of kit. I agree with you that it could have good benefits in civil aviation.

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jetblueguy22
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:32 am

Will never forget getting cocky in my PPL training and telling my instructor I didn’t believe all the spatial disorientation stories.

He had me drop my head and close my eyes. He kept rotating the aircraft on all 3 axis. Finally he said “Guess how we’re positioned”

I said left bank, nose down. Looked up, we were right bank nose up.

He did it a second time. Same result, I wasn’t even close.

It’s one of those things that sounds absolutely insane until you experience it.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:48 am

Rotocraft pilots are more susceptible to SD primarily because of its full range of motions. Following is an excellent article that came out a few months after the crash that killed Kobe. Instrument instructors getting in trouble in just seconds.

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/he ... nt-safety/
 
Flow2706
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:48 am

Spatial disorientation is indeed more dangerous than most people think. One study concluded that the average time of survival if a VFR only rated pilot enters IMC is only 178 seconds. This study involved young military pilots/cadets in very good physical condition that hadn't received IFR training yet. There is even a video that tries to demonstrate this effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7t4IR-3mSo
But even seasoned airline or military pilots with a lot of IFR hours can be overwhelmed by spatial disorientation. One particularly dangerous illusion is the somatogravic illusion, which results in the pilot overestimating the angle of climb. It has been the cause of many accidents involving large passenger jets with experienced crews, f.e. Gulfair 72.
I experienced this illusion during my first ever go around on the Airbus outside of the Sim. We were flying a light (30 passengers or so) A319 into Copenhagen. The approach was performed in night VMC and we were not expecting anything unusual during the flight. However the B757 ahead of us slowed down earlier than expected so ATC was worried about wake turbulence separation and asked us to go around. When we put the thrust levers to TOGA I felt like the aircraft was in a vertical climb. I probably froze for a couple of seconds as my brain was trying to make sense of the conflicting inputs (PFD showing a 18° climb or so, while I could have sworn that we were in an at least 80° angle). Luckily I was flying with an experienced captain and the AP was still on.
Since my upgrade I often tell this story to new FOs, just to make them aware that spatial disorientation can be powerful and affect everyone.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:15 pm

Anyone who doubts SD and/or manual flight skills are important and not taught well should read this report.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/exp ... 72.article
 
flybaurlax
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:23 pm

Same thing as Jetblueguy22. My CFI had me put my head down under the hood and maneuvered the plane around. After a while he asked "what's our attitude?" I replied "steep turn". We were straight and level. WOW. Mind blown at that point, and from then on I've never questioned how spatial disorientation can occur.

I am not a pilot for my airline, but I do have jumpseat access. One time on descent into IMC at night we were passing through 10,000 with the landing lights on. As we went into the clouds, you could see precip coming at the windshield directly head on. Not being at the controls with the instruments right in front of me, I totally felt that we were just going straight down and had a free fall sensation. Of course we were doing only about 1500fpm descent. I really felt like I was squirming in my seat like I was on a roller coaster free fall. It took me about a minute to get my head back in the game that we were indeed flying appropriately.
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:19 pm

You don't need clouds to suffer Spatial D. Moonless nights with stars and sparse ground lighting can confuse the senses as to which way is sky vs which way is ground/ocean. Not sure if the Japanese Air Force F-35 pilot was in the clouds, but that was attributed to be the cause of his death and destruction of the F-35.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:13 am

Buddy Holly's death and RFK Jr's death both from this. Back in '72 I was flying a Be-18 on a mail run single pilot over east Tenn. I was in the clouds 95% of the time and suddenly I saw a light on the ground and a star above. Immediately I thought I was in a 90 deg bank. That was the most impressive exposure I remember seeing. Once in a 727 the strobes messed up my head while we were IFR night but turning them off ended that quickly.
 
Lrockeagle
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:21 am

flybaurlax wrote:
Same thing as Jetblueguy22. My CFI had me put my head down under the hood and maneuvered the plane around. After a while he asked "what's our attitude?" I replied "steep turn". We were straight and level. WOW. Mind blown at that point, and from then on I've never questioned how spatial disorientation can occur.

I am not a pilot for my airline, but I do have jumpseat access. One time on descent into IMC at night we were passing through 10,000 with the landing lights on. As we went into the clouds, you could see precip coming at the windshield directly head on. Not being at the controls with the instruments right in front of me, I totally felt that we were just going straight down and had a free fall sensation. Of course we were doing only about 1500fpm descent. I really felt like I was squirming in my seat like I was on a roller coaster free fall. It took me about a minute to get my head back in the game that we were indeed flying appropriately.

Same with me. My CFII made sure we flew in actual during my training and would have me shake my head all around. I couldn’t believe how strong the feeling is that you’re turning or not turning or climbing. It feels super weird to focus on the instruments and try to ignore it
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:07 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
Spatial disorientation is indeed more dangerous than most people think. One study concluded that the average time of survival if a VFR only rated pilot enters IMC is only 178 seconds. This study involved young military pilots/cadets in very good physical condition that hadn't received IFR training yet. There is even a video that tries to demonstrate this effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7t4IR-3mSo
But even seasoned airline or military pilots with a lot of IFR hours can be overwhelmed by spatial disorientation. One particularly dangerous illusion is the somatogravic illusion, which results in the pilot overestimating the angle of climb. It has been the cause of many accidents involving large passenger jets with experienced crews, f.e. Gulfair 72.
I experienced this illusion during my first ever go around on the Airbus outside of the Sim. We were flying a light (30 passengers or so) A319 into Copenhagen. The approach was performed in night VMC and we were not expecting anything unusual during the flight. However the B757 ahead of us slowed down earlier than expected so ATC was worried about wake turbulence separation and asked us to go around. When we put the thrust levers to TOGA I felt like the aircraft was in a vertical climb. I probably froze for a couple of seconds as my brain was trying to make sense of the conflicting inputs (PFD showing a 18° climb or so, while I could have sworn that we were in an at least 80° angle). Luckily I was flying with an experienced captain and the AP was still on.
Since my upgrade I often tell this story to new FOs, just to make them aware that spatial disorientation can be powerful and affect everyone.


Share your experience regarding my first "real life" go around outside of the sim. Pretty tough in full IMC to get the sensory illusions over what the instruments say. Super calm and professional CPT was all the help needed and after all it was uneventful, but still a teaching experience. Unfortunately my jet can't fly the GA on AP, would have helped tremendously for the first GA.
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tnair1974
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:14 am

flybaurlax wrote:
Same thing as Jetblueguy22. My CFI had me put my head down under the hood and maneuvered the plane around. After a while he asked "what's our attitude?" I replied "steep turn". We were straight and level. WOW. Mind blown at that point, and from then on I've never questioned how spatial disorientation can occur.

I'm not a licensed pilot, but I have numerous relatives that are/were private pilots. I've flown with them on several longer IFR flights and on a few occasions got to take the controls under their supervision. One thing I remember well from early on was with the autopilot off, I had to frequently resist my "gut feelings to level the plane" when in fact the instruments showed me rolling to the right. Even when I got the grasp of (properly) only looking at any one instrument for a short time to monitor other instruments like engine oil pressure, I to my dismay was already rolling right by the time I got back to the roll/attitude indicator. Despite my frequent self-correcting, it wasn't long before I was straying off the VOR radial, requiring more pronounced left turns to get back on course.

flybaurlax wrote:
I am not a pilot for my airline, but I do have jumpseat access. One time on descent into IMC at night we were passing through 10,000 with the landing lights on. As we went into the clouds, you could see precip coming at the windshield directly head on. Not being at the controls with the instruments right in front of me, I totally felt that we were just going straight down and had a free fall sensation. Of course we were doing only about 1500fpm descent. I really felt like I was squirming in my seat like I was on a roller coaster free fall. It took me about a minute to get my head back in the game that we were indeed flying appropriately.

On one occasion as darkness was setting in, we entered IFR conditions. To my surprise, the rotating beacon on top of the fuselage sent multiple "lighted red spots" zipping across our forward line of vision. My uncle turned off the beacon within about ten seconds, but even in that time I was already a little dizzy.

The earlier mentions of the Buddy Holly and JFK Jr tragedies hammer home that a disproportionately high number of IFR/marginal VFR accidents involve non-IFR rated pilots. I don't know how routine this is and what any requirements are, but several pilots I know got limited "hood" flying with an instructor prior to earning his/her private pilot ticket (before later going for IFR ratings). This limited hood time doesn't mean a non-IFR private pilot can purposely fly into IFR conditions....they're not suppose to. But if one unwittingly gets into IFR conditions, the limited IFR hood training is meant to enable a non-IFR pilot to safely get back into VFR conditions.
 
flybaurlax
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:18 pm

The earlier mentions of the Buddy Holly and JFK Jr tragedies hammer home that a disproportionately high number of IFR/marginal VFR accidents involve non-IFR rated pilots. I don't know how routine this is and what any requirements are, but several pilots I know got limited "hood" flying with an instructor prior to earning his/her private pilot ticket (before later going for IFR ratings). This limited hood time doesn't mean a non-IFR private pilot can purposely fly into IFR conditions....they're not suppose to. But if one unwittingly gets into IFR conditions, the limited IFR hood training is meant to enable a non-IFR pilot to safely get back into VFR conditions.


This right here - it is a minimum requirement for the PPL, however it really isn't sufficient at all to really save you if you inadvertently fly into IMC. Most private pilots without instrument ratings did not practice flying by reference to the instruments only. I was one of them until I started working on my IR. It's really no surprise to hear about accidents when pilots inadvertently go into IMC. As it's evident from the posts above, even experienced pilots occasionally have to fight the sensations and focus on the instruments. If one isn't used to doing this, or is not proficient on a good scan, bad things will happen.

One of my company's Regulatory Compliance directors used to say "Just because you are compliant, doesn't mean you are safe." I believe this to be true regarding the minimum requirements for simulated instrument time to get the PPL.
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tnair1974
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:31 pm

flybaurlax wrote:
The earlier mentions of the Buddy Holly and JFK Jr tragedies hammer home that a disproportionately high number of IFR/marginal VFR accidents involve non-IFR rated pilots. I don't know how routine this is and what any requirements are, but several pilots I know got limited "hood" flying with an instructor prior to earning his/her private pilot ticket (before later going for IFR ratings). This limited hood time doesn't mean a non-IFR private pilot can purposely fly into IFR conditions....they're not suppose to. But if one unwittingly gets into IFR conditions, the limited IFR hood training is meant to enable a non-IFR pilot to safely get back into VFR conditions.


This right here - it is a minimum requirement for the PPL, however it really isn't sufficient at all to really save you if you inadvertently fly into IMC. Most private pilots without instrument ratings did not practice flying by reference to the instruments only. I was one of them until I started working on my IR. It's really no surprise to hear about accidents when pilots inadvertently go into IMC. As it's evident from the posts above, even experienced pilots occasionally have to fight the sensations and focus on the instruments. If one isn't used to doing this, or is not proficient on a good scan, bad things will happen.

One of my company's Regulatory Compliance directors used to say "Just because you are compliant, doesn't mean you are safe." I believe this to be true regarding the minimum requirements for simulated instrument time to get the PPL.

Thanks for the info.

Reminds me of a conversation I overheard maybe twenty years ago. An instructor was explaining to her student about VFR requirements for certain airspace; one mile visibility and clear of clouds (I had to look it up, today this at least applies to Class G airspace). She mentioned that as long as the tip of your vertical stabilizer is not in a cloud, you are legal. She added this is even if it doesn't necessarily mean its the safest, smartest thing for a pilot to do...
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Spatial disorientation accidents, how do they happen with aircraft with (properly working) instruments?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:12 pm

Often people think they can do it. A tragic story from a few years ago, the pilot and his family of 4 were going on a 2 hour flight to visit friends. The airport viz was 1/16th mile with fog. The tops of the fog was only about 200' so he thought he could do it. He didn't.

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos