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x1234
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Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:16 pm

I keep hearing in the industry that the Boeing 777-300ER is a CARGO KING as it can hold lots of cargo. How does it compare in terms of LD3 positions to the B787-8/9/10 and the A350-900/1000?
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:13 pm

The info is all laid out in wiki for easy reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_load_device
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:25 pm

One other interesting observation from the link posted above. The A380 can only hold 38 LD3 containers, while the new 779 can hold 48 and the A350-1000 can hold 44.

So the 779 has about 25% more cargo capacity and is much cheaper to operate than the A380. Ditto the A350-1000 which has about 20% more cargo capacity and obviously is cheaper to operate. Even the 77W can carry 6 more LD3 containers than the A380.

Basically, unless the A380 is absolutely full with pax it cannot compete against the 779 or A350-1000 and would even struggle against the 77W. Not bashing, but it is no wonder the A380 is so rapidly disappearing from service.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:26 pm

The 35K is at 44, 779 at 48, 78X is 40 I think, the 359 is 36 or 38, and 789 around the same, In terms of carrying the cargo the farthest, the 359 will take 60+t past 6000nm, and the 35K will carry around 75t around the same distance.
 
IgorD
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:02 am

Cargo is usually carried on pallets, and not LD3. I wonder what are the normal loads for these aircraft, pre-covid I mean.

For example, many airlines publish traffic statustics, where they compute freight load factor, say a typical 60%. What is 100% in weight terms? Is it what is left after DOW + full house of pax and MZFW? So, for a 77w it will be something like 237 - 42 (pax) -170 (itl long haul DOW) = 25 tonnes?
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:49 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
So the 779 has about 25% more cargo capacity and is much cheaper to operate than the A380. Ditto the A350-1000 which has about 20% more cargo capacity and obviously is cheaper to operate. Even the 77W can carry 6 more LD3 containers than the A380.


These comments simply are not true, the number of LD3 positions does not determine the amount of cargo that can be carried, typically on long haul flights airline first hit their MTOW limit.

Very typical to see a 77W with empty positions in the cargo hold as they have run out of weight. The 779 is expected to carry less weight than the 77W due to its higher empty weight.

IgorD wrote:
For example, many airlines publish traffic statustics, where they compute freight load factor, say a typical 60%. What is 100% in weight terms? Is it what is left after DOW + full house of pax and MZFW? So, for a 77w it will be something like 237 - 42 (pax) -170 (itl long haul DOW) = 25 tonnes?


It will depend on the route after around 5000 nm a 77W will run into MTOW limit, so payload will need to be replaced by fuel to fly further, typically reducing payload by 7-8 tonnes per hour (the fuel burn at the end of a flight) after 5000 nm.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:58 pm

zeke wrote:
These comments simply are not true, the number of LD3 positions does not determine the amount of cargo that can be carried, typically on long haul flights airline first hit their MTOW limit.


This is a valuable real world comment.

Given the 77W's excellent lifting power, part of the "cargo king" reputation is it has not only big cargo bay, but the excess MTOW on mid-distance routes can carry impressive weights.

The A35k appears to outperform, but how many A35K are out there in active fleets compared to 77W, way fewer. 77W is what actually made a dent in the global dedicated freighter market. And that trend will surely continue long term with A350 and 787.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:12 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
The A35k appears to outperform, but how many A35K are out there in active fleets compared to 77W, way fewer. 77W is what actually made a dent in the global dedicated freighter market. And that trend will surely continue long term with A350 and 787.


The A35K will lift around 5 tonnes more payload weight than a 77W when MZFW limited, mainly due to the lower empty weight. As the cabin holds fewer passengers the A35K normally has more mass capacity available for cargo, and more volume as fewer passengers means fewer bags.

When MTOW limited, payload is offload for fuel, as the A35K has a lower fuel burn, the A35K need to offload less payload for each hour it flies.

Just as an observation, we have parked most of our 77Ws, where most of our A350s are flying.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:16 pm

zeke wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
The A35k appears to outperform, but how many A35K are out there in active fleets compared to 77W, way fewer. 77W is what actually made a dent in the global dedicated freighter market. And that trend will surely continue long term with A350 and 787.


The A35K will lift around 5 tonnes more payload weight than a 77W when MZFW limited, mainly due to the lower empty weight. As the cabin holds fewer passengers the A35K normally has more mass capacity available for cargo, and more volume as fewer passengers means fewer bags.

When MTOW limited, payload is offload for fuel, as the A35K has a lower fuel burn, the A35K need to offload less payload for each hour it flies.

Just as an observation, we have parked most of our 77Ws, where most of our A350s are flying.


Great info! not doubting the A35K can lift more. It is the true cargo king.

But the 77W fleet is not shabby, that fleet still has some flying to do, when the vaccine comes!
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:01 pm

zeke wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
So the 779 has about 25% more cargo capacity and is much cheaper to operate than the A380. Ditto the A350-1000 which has about 20% more cargo capacity and obviously is cheaper to operate. Even the 77W can carry 6 more LD3 containers than the A380.


These comments simply are not true, the number of LD3 positions does not determine the amount of cargo that can be carried, typically on long haul flights airline first hit their MTOW limit.

Very typical to see a 77W with empty positions in the cargo hold as they have run out of weight. The 779 is expected to carry less weight than the 77W due to its higher empty weight.

IgorD wrote:
For example, many airlines publish traffic statustics, where they compute freight load factor, say a typical 60%. What is 100% in weight terms? Is it what is left after DOW + full house of pax and MZFW? So, for a 77w it will be something like 237 - 42 (pax) -170 (itl long haul DOW) = 25 tonnes?


It will depend on the route after around 5000 nm a 77W will run into MTOW limit, so payload will need to be replaced by fuel to fly further, typically reducing payload by 7-8 tonnes per hour (the fuel burn at the end of a flight) after 5000 nm.



My specific comment was regarding the number of LD3' containers carried. And yes, both the 779 and A350-1000 can carry considerably more LD3 containers than an A380.

As for your statement that the 779 can carry less cargo than the 77W, I'd love to see a link with that information otherwise pure speculation.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:01 pm

zeke wrote:
Just as an observation, we have parked most of our 77Ws, where most of our A350s are flying.


Same goes for Singapore Airlines, whereas Qatar keeps most of its fleet of both types flying.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:15 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
zeke wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
So the 779 has about 25% more cargo capacity and is much cheaper to operate than the A380. Ditto the A350-1000 which has about 20% more cargo capacity and obviously is cheaper to operate. Even the 77W can carry 6 more LD3 containers than the A380.


These comments simply are not true, the number of LD3 positions does not determine the amount of cargo that can be carried, typically on long haul flights airline first hit their MTOW limit.

Very typical to see a 77W with empty positions in the cargo hold as they have run out of weight. The 779 is expected to carry less weight than the 77W due to its higher empty weight.

IgorD wrote:
For example, many airlines publish traffic statustics, where they compute freight load factor, say a typical 60%. What is 100% in weight terms? Is it what is left after DOW + full house of pax and MZFW? So, for a 77w it will be something like 237 - 42 (pax) -170 (itl long haul DOW) = 25 tonnes?


It will depend on the route after around 5000 nm a 77W will run into MTOW limit, so payload will need to be replaced by fuel to fly further, typically reducing payload by 7-8 tonnes per hour (the fuel burn at the end of a flight) after 5000 nm.



My specific comment was regarding the number of LD3' containers carried. And yes, both the 779 and A350-1000 can carry considerably more LD3 containers than an A380.

As for your statement that the 779 can carry less cargo than the 77W, I'd love to see a link with that information otherwise pure speculation.


Zeke is correct, the 779's OEW is higher and has the same MTOW, I recall (but didn't look up) the max payload is about 8 tons less. However, with a lower fuel burn the rate that payload is reduced to fly a specific range is less. fewer tons left off per hour flying. Somewhere around 8 hours is where the curves cross. The reason why Boeing has not jumped into a new 77F yet, the existing has better freighter performance on the normal freight stage of 5,000 miles or less. It is plain to see on the payload - range charts.
 
IgorD
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:32 am

zeke wrote:

IgorD wrote:
For example, many airlines publish traffic statustics, where they compute freight load factor, say a typical 60%. What is 100% in weight terms? Is it what is left after DOW + full house of pax and MZFW? So, for a 77w it will be something like 237 - 42 (pax) -170 (itl long haul DOW) = 25 tonnes?


It will depend on the route after around 5000 nm a 77W will run into MTOW limit, so payload will need to be replaced by fuel to fly further, typically reducing payload by 7-8 tonnes per hour (the fuel burn at the end of a flight) after 5000 nm.


Thanks, zeke, that makes sense. I was biased in a way that living in West Europe, there are not many routes of 12+ hours, where MTOW limits start to bite. Even HKG-AMS route is a 12 hour mission, so for this route you are rather limited by MZFW on a 77W. I can only think of Singapore that is a bit further.

I still do not fully understand how freight load factor is computed. It is a fraction of weight capacity utilized, where I struggle is how this capacity is computed. The latest is really interesting -- we would know how airlines assess the carrying capacity of their fleets (and aircraft types :)
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:40 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
My specific comment was regarding the number of LD3' containers carried. And yes, both the 779 and A350-1000 can carry considerably more LD3 containers than an A380.


Your claim erroneously stated that the number of LD3 positions is related to the cargo capacity ("779 has about 25% more cargo capacity"). In reality on long haul flights 777s often go with cargo positions empty in the cargo hold as there as one or more weight limits have been hit.

ElroyJetson wrote:
As for your statement that the 779 can carry less cargo than the 77W, I'd love to see a link with that information otherwise pure speculation.


The information can be derived easily from public information for example nominal passenger loads and ACAPs data.

Take the stated MZFW minus the DOW minus the number of passengers by 100 kg reveils the amount of payload available for cargo, the 77L can carry more cargo than the 77W and 779.

779 MZFW ( 254,918) minus DOW (185,000) minus passengers (426x100) = 27,318 kg
77W MZFW (237,683) minus DOW (170,000) minus passengers (396x100) = 28,083 kg
77L MZFW ( 209,106) minus DOW (145,000) minus passengers (317x100) = 32,406 kg
A35K MZFW (223,000) minus DOW (150,000) minus passengers (369x100) = 36,100 kg

Assuming that each LD3 carries 25 suitcases from the passengers, the number of pallet positions available for cargo would be

77L - 6
A35k - 7
77W - 8
779 - 9

However using 6 tonnes per pallet, the number of empty positions as the aircraft would hit MZFW limit would be

77L - 1 (5x6,000=30,000 kg, 27,318 kg available)
A35K - 1
77W - 3
779 - 4
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:14 am

IgorD wrote:
I still do not fully understand how freight load factor is computed. It is a fraction of weight capacity utilized, where I struggle is how this capacity is computed. The latest is really interesting -- we would know how airlines assess the carrying capacity of their fleets (and aircraft types :)


There is no standard, so the numbers seen are confusing. For passengers aircraft airlines will often convert passengers to "cargo" by multiplying them by 100. Some airlines will have a nominal cargo capacity for each type, that will be the cargo available after loading passengers on a nominal route, that will overstate the cargo on longer routes and understate it on shorter routes. Some airlines will do it by each route, some by each flight. It just depends on how deep they want to dive into the data. The annual report will usually outline the method used in the airline.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
AC320tech
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:57 am

IgorD wrote:
Cargo is usually carried on pallets, and not LD3. I wonder what are the normal loads for these aircraft, pre-covid I mean.


For passenger carriers, a considerable amount of cargo is shipped in cans.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:49 am

AC320tech wrote:
For passenger carriers, a considerable amount of cargo is shipped in cans.


Indeed, but compared to how much is carried on pallets it's negligible.

And please discontinue using the terms "cans". They are containers or, if you wish to be expertly pedantic, strutural ULDs. And pallets are not cookie sheets either, they're non-structural ULDs.

Measuring cargo carrying capacity based on LD3 positions displays a magnificent lack of knowledge.
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dennypayne
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:08 pm

B777LRF wrote:
AC320tech wrote:
For passenger carriers, a considerable amount of cargo is shipped in cans.


And please discontinue using the terms "cans". They are containers or, if you wish to be expertly pedantic, strutural ULDs. And pallets are not cookie sheets either, they're non-structural ULDs.


Am I really to believe that rampers out there are all saying "OK guys let's get loading those structural ULDs"
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dennypayne
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:08 pm

B777LRF wrote:
AC320tech wrote:
For passenger carriers, a considerable amount of cargo is shipped in cans.


And please discontinue using the terms "cans". They are containers or, if you wish to be expertly pedantic, strutural ULDs. And pallets are not cookie sheets either, they're non-structural ULDs.


Am I really to believe that rampers out there are all saying "OK guys let's get loading those structural ULDs"
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 ARJ AT6/7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 741/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR1/2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
F50/100 J31 L10 L4T M11/80/87/90 SF3 SU9 TU3/TU5 YK2
 
B777LRF
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:31 pm

dennypayne wrote:
Am I really to believe that rampers out there are all saying "OK guys let's get loading those structural ULDs"


Probably not, since ramp agents are not usually overtly pedantic. As such they refer to them as containers and pallets, anywhere outside the US that is.
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FGITD
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:36 pm

Funny, where I work even the upper cargo management will refer to them as cans. Personally I prefer just calling it by what's the on the side. I don't find them particularly useful for cargo unless you have something specific that needs seperating. DGs, pharma, ice, and so on. Too much wasted weight and space for not enough paying weight.

Agreed though...LD3 count is a fun way to compare hold sizes, maybe. But in terms of cargo...basically useless. Even using just pallets doesn't quite cut it. For example, an A333 will hold 11 pallets. But not 11 PMCs. (damn PAGs getting in the way)

I'm fond of the 77w as a cargo hauler because it simply gets the job done more often than not. It'll hold a lot of cargo, weight and balance is usually pretty straightforward, and it's a very easy aircraft to load. The routes I'm working usually aren't the 12+ hour flights, so we pretty much can load everything we want and it'll go.
 
IgorD
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Re: Boeing 777-300ER, cargo king, how does it compare to B787 and A350?

Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:05 pm

zeke wrote:
IgorD wrote:
I still do not fully understand how freight load factor is computed. It is a fraction of weight capacity utilized, where I struggle is how this capacity is computed. The latest is really interesting -- we would know how airlines assess the carrying capacity of their fleets (and aircraft types :)


There is no standard, so the numbers seen are confusing. For passengers aircraft airlines will often convert passengers to "cargo" by multiplying them by 100. Some airlines will have a nominal cargo capacity for each type, that will be the cargo available after loading passengers on a nominal route, that will overstate the cargo on longer routes and understate it on shorter routes. Some airlines will do it by each route, some by each flight. It just depends on how deep they want to dive into the data. The annual report will usually outline the method used in the airline.


Thank you zeke -- I am afraid you are right that each operator does it in their own way, let's hope consistently.

Do you know how CX compute freight utilization, specifically how they compute available tonne-kilometres (denominator)?

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