Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Trimeresurus
Topic Author
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:06 pm

What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:10 pm

What is the pilot expected to do if after he touches down and slows down to a speed that's below what'd allow a safe re-rotation and go around(maybe 120 kts or less) and another aircraft/ground vehicle/person/animal whatever enters the runway and is on the aircraft's path? Do you just accept your fate and brace for impact?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:21 pm

It is unlikely to happen, but assuming the worst case scenario, he can apply extra braking force on the wheels and apply full reverse power. They could also swerve slightly off to one side of the runway to avoid whatever is there. Obviously not something you would do in a full 777, but smaller types could do that. Absolutely worst case if you somehow out of the blue find a plane blocking your path and stopping or going around is not an option, turning into the grass would probably be preferable.

Really, the protection against this scenario lies with ATC.
 
Flow2706
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:46 pm

There was an incident in Munich a couple of years ago where a departing crew misunderstood a conditional lineup clearance and taxied onto the runway while an other flight was on short final. The landing crew (IIRC the landing aircraft was a 737 classic) had to use the tiller at high speed to avoid the collision.
There is no real procedure for this event (which shouldn't happen at all in first place), but the reaction would probably depend on the exact circumstances. On most aircraft types a go around can not be initiated after the reversers are deployed (there is a chance that one reverser may not re-stow which could lead to loss of control), so that would definitely be a consideration but as I said it depends.
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:27 pm

In this incident, the FO recognized the aircraft was on the runway after touching down, and applied maximum braking, but obviously the plane couldn’t stop in time so the two aircraft collided

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angel ... y_disaster

USAir 1493 in 1991 if the link doesn’t work

The accident caused a change in verbology. Now when you’re cleared onto the runway the controller tells you aircraft on xx mile final. And when you’re told cleared to land, the controller tells you aircraft departing prior to arrival or holding on runway... etc...
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1932
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:59 pm

Here's a great story written by one of our pilot posters about his near miss..

viewtopic.php?p=12849555#p12849555

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4383
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:41 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Really, the protection against this scenario lies with ATC.


Correct, though there are times where a ground vehicle will for some unknown reason get confused and crosses an active runway without any ATC clearance which is one reason we'd constantly scan the runway visually and also with the use of ASDE-X (ground RADAR) for intruders when an aircraft is approaching the runway for departure or landing. Happens on taxiways as well, but not quite as bad a possible outcome.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20754
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:42 am

Trimeresurus wrote:
What is the pilot expected to do if after he touches down and slows down to a speed that's below what'd allow a safe re-rotation and go around(maybe 120 kts or less) and another aircraft/ground vehicle/person/animal whatever enters the runway and is on the aircraft's path? Do you just accept your fate and brace for impact?


As one of my first flight instructors told me, "Never, ever, give up." Forum member Slamclick famously expressed it thus: "If I die in the cockpit, I expect to die very busy".

If you're fast enough, the intrusion is a fair way down the runway, and you haven't cracked the reversers, you can attempt a "rejected landing". This is a go-around initiated after touchdown and is slightly different from a normal go around. (Not to be confused with a go-around initiated before touchdown but so low that there is with ground contact.)

Another option is to brake as hard as you can, then veer off to the side and try to at least take the impact on a wing instead of head on.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DualQual
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:47 am

I believe it was an old British aviation adage “Should a crash be inevitable, endeavor to hit the softest, cheapest thing you can as slowly as possible.”
There's no known cure for stupid
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20754
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:52 am

DualQual wrote:
I believe it was an old British aviation adage “Should a crash be inevitable, endeavor to hit the softest, cheapest thing you can as slowly as possible.”


I love it.

Another expression is that it is better to go off the end of the runway at 30 knots on landing than to crash into the ground at 130 knots.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8074
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:02 pm

I’ve done thousands of heavy jet touch and goes on runways from 7,000’ to 13,000’ long; I’d stop unless i was in the flare or just touched down and the intrusion was way down the runway. Otherwise, max effort to stop and go off the side, if collision was inevitable.
 
User avatar
rjsampson
Posts: 498
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:00 am

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:48 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
The landing crew (IIRC the landing aircraft was a 737 classic) had to use the tiller at high speed to avoid the collision.


I'm guessing it would vary by aircraft type (or perhaps I misunderstood something from a "steering" thread, and this isn't a thing at all):

Don't some types lock out tiller functionality above a certain speed?
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. Unfortunately, we're grounded :(
 
Flow2706
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:12 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
The landing crew (IIRC the landing aircraft was a 737 classic) had to use the tiller at high speed to avoid the collision.


I'm guessing it would vary by aircraft type (or perhaps I misunderstood something from a "steering" thread, and this isn't a thing at all):

Don't some types lock out tiller functionality above a certain speed?

Not sure about the 737, but on A320s tillers are not locked out at any speed from the systems point of view. However it is not allowed to use them above taxi speed as they are way too sensitive, but in an emergency situation like this it may safe your life.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20754
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: What's the procedure for runway incursion after the touchdown?

Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:44 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
The landing crew (IIRC the landing aircraft was a 737 classic) had to use the tiller at high speed to avoid the collision.


I'm guessing it would vary by aircraft type (or perhaps I misunderstood something from a "steering" thread, and this isn't a thing at all):

Don't some types lock out tiller functionality above a certain speed?


Yes they do. The A330 and A350 nosewheel steering decreases in sensitivity at higher speed. The tiller is completely locked out above 100 knots, while the pedals are locked out above 100 on landing and 150 on takeoff. You still have the rudder of course, and if you're doing over 100 knots it has more than enough authority.

Flow2706 wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
The landing crew (IIRC the landing aircraft was a 737 classic) had to use the tiller at high speed to avoid the collision.


I'm guessing it would vary by aircraft type (or perhaps I misunderstood something from a "steering" thread, and this isn't a thing at all):

Don't some types lock out tiller functionality above a certain speed?

Not sure about the 737, but on A320s tillers are not locked out at any speed from the systems point of view. However it is not allowed to use them above taxi speed as they are way too sensitive, but in an emergency situation like this it may safe your life.


AFAIK the A320 steering logic is much like the A330 and A350. Both pedals and tillers have a decreasing effect on steering at higher speed, and are locked out above a certain threshold. You can still move the actual controls above said speeds, but the nose gear won't move.

This isn't an "operational" A320 FCOM, but should do for the purpose. See page 25. http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/A320-Landing_Gear.pdf
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: acmx, Bing [Bot] and 14 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos