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dfwjim1
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Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:36 pm

I flew out of Charlotte yesterday on an AA 738 that took off from runway 36C. My flight sat in a long line behind a number of regional jets that departed from the very last intersection "F". Runway 36C is 10,000 feet long and the air temperature was mild at the time so I was wondering why all or some of the regional jets would not depart from intersections E3/4 in order to speed things up.

As a side my flight, which was fully loaded, lifted off about 2/3s down the runway. Thanks for any info.
 
SoCalPilot
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:11 pm

Departing from intersections doesn't change the amount of airplanes that need to take off or the separation required between departures, all it does is change the taxi time for an aircraft that's able to jump all the other aircraft in queue. It's going to take the same amount of time to get all of the aircraft off the ground no matter which intersections they're departing from. In fact, intersection departures could make things longer depending on the aircraft involved as there may be a need for increased separation due to wake turbulence.
 
e38
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:19 am

jim, efficient sequencing of aircraft on departure at busy airports is more readily facilitated by proper separation using varying Standard Instrument Departures, not intersection takeoffs. At most major airports, ground control will sequence taxiing aircraft--whenever possible--such that adjacent aircraft are on different SIDS.

In some cases, using intersection takeoffs can increase the workload of the local controller (tower), and is therefore, not frequently used. In fact, I don't know of very many airports in the U.S. that routinely use intersection departures. It just doesn't save much time and there can be additional risks involved.

Local procedures can always be more restrictive than what is normally allowed by the FAA.

Although this happened many years ago, take a look at the accident at LAX on February 1, 1991 involving USAir flight 1493 and Skywest flight 5569. Although not directly related to the question you are asking, air traffic control was contributory to the accident.

Finally, with regard to local procedures being more restrictive, I have departed from several airports in the U.S. where the "line up and wait" procedure is not used. At those airports, aircraft approaching the end of the runway are either directed to "hold short" or they are cleared for takeoff, not placed on the runway awaiting clearance. When I questioned the tower about this, I was told that not using the line up and wait procedure reduces risk as well. In most cases, the airports that do not use the "line up and wait" procedure are not what you would consider "major" airports, i.e., they do not have dedicated "departure" and "arrival" runways and they have a mix of airline and general aviation traffic.

e38
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:36 pm

e38 wrote:
Finally, with regard to local procedures being more restrictive, I have departed from several airports in the U.S. where the "line up and wait" procedure is not used. At those airports, aircraft approaching the end of the runway are either directed to "hold short" or they are cleared for takeoff, not placed on the runway awaiting clearance. When I questioned the tower about this, I was told that not using the line up and wait procedure reduces risk as well. In most cases, the airports that do not use the "line up and wait" procedure are not what you would consider "major" airports, i.e., they do not have dedicated "departure" and "arrival" runways and they have a mix of airline and general aviation traffic.e38


All excellent points. There are a ton of restrictions to use "line up and wait" that airports/FAA/ATC must follow and some airports as you mention not "major" simply do not use it for those reasons among possibly some others.

Here is some of the controller 7110.65 Order to look at as well so the OP may find some rationale behind CLT not using intersections as has been mentioned before.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_9.html
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andrej
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:08 am

e38 wrote:
In some cases, using intersection takeoffs can increase the workload of the local controller (tower), and is therefore, not frequently used. In fact, I don't know of very many airports in the U.S. that routinely use intersection departures. It just doesn't save much time and there can be additional risks involved.


All very interesting points.

I can remember that KEWR, used intersection departures for RWY22L @ W. Full length was used by a handful planes. Most likely it is still the case. But this is more likely related to the layout of KEWR 22's runways and possible issues with traffic on RWY 29.

Best!
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:55 pm

andrej wrote:
e38 wrote:
In some cases, using intersection takeoffs can increase the workload of the local controller (tower), and is therefore, not frequently used. In fact, I don't know of very many airports in the U.S. that routinely use intersection departures. It just doesn't save much time and there can be additional risks involved.


All very interesting points.

I can remember that KEWR, used intersection departures for RWY22L @ W. Full length was used by a handful planes. Most likely it is still the case. But this is more likely related to the layout of KEWR 22's runways and possible issues with traffic on RWY 29.

Best!


I think what E38 means is that it's realtively uncommon to have large numbers or aircraft simultaneously using full length and intersection departures. It's not at all uncommon or unsafe for certain runways to have nearly continuous intersection departures. 28 at BWI is a great example; aircraft almost always depart from the U1 intersection rather than pulling around on V to depart full-length. 9L at ATL is another good example; running departures from T permits aircraft that have landed on 9R and 10 to taxi across the threshhold of 9L and not have to await breaks in the departures.
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Woodreau
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:24 am

About the only time doing an intersection departure saves time is when there only one aircraft to take off.

When there is a line of aircraft queued for takeoff then everyone still has to wait their turn and doing an intersection takeoff doesn’t accomplish anything.
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andrej
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:50 am

Cubsrule wrote:
I think what E38 means is that it's realtively uncommon to have large numbers or aircraft simultaneously using full length and intersection departures.


I completely agree, just KEWR came to my mind as it used to be my home airport for some time. :) Maybe EGLL can fit such a description (where a couple of short-haul departures precede long-haul).
 
leader1
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:52 pm

andrej wrote:

I can remember that KEWR, used intersection departures for RWY22L @ W. Full length was used by a handful planes. Most likely it is still the case. But this is more likely related to the layout of KEWR 22's runways and possible issues with traffic on RWY 29.

Best!


EWR still has most takeoffs from Taxiway W, more to facilitate the use of Runway 11/29 for arrivals. There are occasions where aircraft use the full runway for takeoffs, but mostly flights to Asia, which EWR doesn't have a lot of.

CDG also has a lot of takeoffs from various intersections to save taxiing time.
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scbriml
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Re: Charlotte - KCLT - runway 36C operations

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:12 pm

andrej wrote:
Maybe EGLL can fit such a description (where a couple of short-haul departures precede long-haul).


On normal days (pre-Covid), Heathrow has lots of intersection departures.
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