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Trimeresurus
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Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:41 pm

The 787, while taking off, has gears tilted down like a 767, but prior to approach it seems like it's tilted up, just like a 757 or an A330. Does the angle of the gear change with the pitch of the airplane? If so, why is that?

Edit:never mind, it just becomes tilted down right before entering the wheel well, not after rotating. However, this raises another question, why wasn't it tilted down like the 767 in the first place, if that's the arrangement that how it fits into the well?
 
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77west
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:23 am

I think its just how it was designed in order to fit. I have heard the arrangement on the A330 / 777 etc makes for a smoother landing but not sure if thats anecdotal
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Dogbreath
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:18 pm

Trimeresurus, your observations of the different tilting angles of the 787 Main Gear Assembly (called a Truck) - is correct.

To enable the Main Gear Assembly to retract into the Main Wheel Well Bay it must tilt forwards. When the aircraft becomes airborne nothing happens to the Truck Assembly until after the Landing Gear Lever is selected to UP. When the Main Gear doors are within 4° of the fully open position, the Truck Assembly is hydraulically tilted by a Truck Tilt Actuator to the STOW position. It will tilt the Truck Assembly to 12° toes down (front wheels down). Once this sequence is completed and the Doors are fully open, the retract actuator will safely retract the gear.

During Landing Gear extension and when both Main Gear Truck Assemblies are within 11° of the Down position, the Truck Tilt Actuator will hydraulically position the Truck Assemblies to the TILT position which is 12° toes up (front wheels up). This positions the Main Gear so that the aft wheels touchdown first.

Hope that helps - DOG
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Trimeresurus
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:58 am

Dogbreath wrote:
Trimeresurus, your observations of the different tilting angles of the 787 Main Gear Assembly (called a Truck) - is correct.

To enable the Main Gear Assembly to retract into the Main Wheel Well Bay it must tilt forwards. When the aircraft becomes airborne nothing happens to the Truck Assembly until after the Landing Gear Lever is selected to UP. When the Main Gear doors are within 4° of the fully open position, the Truck Assembly is hydraulically tilted by a Truck Tilt Actuator to the STOW position. It will tilt the Truck Assembly to 12° toes down (front wheels down). Once this sequence is completed and the Doors are fully open, the retract actuator will safely retract the gear.

During Landing Gear extension and when both Main Gear Truck Assemblies are within 11° of the Down position, the Truck Tilt Actuator will hydraulically position the Truck Assemblies to the TILT position which is 12° toes up (front wheels up). This positions the Main Gear so that the aft wheels touchdown first.

Hope that helps - DOG


Why sgoukd the aft wheels touch first? In the 767, A380 and A350, forward wheels touch down first with a forward tilt without breaking anything.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:12 am

Trimeresurus wrote:
Dogbreath wrote:
Trimeresurus, your observations of the different tilting angles of the 787 Main Gear Assembly (called a Truck) - is correct.

To enable the Main Gear Assembly to retract into the Main Wheel Well Bay it must tilt forwards. When the aircraft becomes airborne nothing happens to the Truck Assembly until after the Landing Gear Lever is selected to UP. When the Main Gear doors are within 4° of the fully open position, the Truck Assembly is hydraulically tilted by a Truck Tilt Actuator to the STOW position. It will tilt the Truck Assembly to 12° toes down (front wheels down). Once this sequence is completed and the Doors are fully open, the retract actuator will safely retract the gear.

During Landing Gear extension and when both Main Gear Truck Assemblies are within 11° of the Down position, the Truck Tilt Actuator will hydraulically position the Truck Assemblies to the TILT position which is 12° toes up (front wheels up). This positions the Main Gear so that the aft wheels touchdown first.

Hope that helps - DOG


Why sgoukd the aft wheels touch first? In the 767, A380 and A350, forward wheels touch down first with a forward tilt without breaking anything.


Can of worms... Opening. ;)

The theory is that the trailing axle touches down first, this can make for a smoother landing.
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Trimeresurus
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:41 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Trimeresurus wrote:
Dogbreath wrote:
Trimeresurus, your observations of the different tilting angles of the 787 Main Gear Assembly (called a Truck) - is correct.

To enable the Main Gear Assembly to retract into the Main Wheel Well Bay it must tilt forwards. When the aircraft becomes airborne nothing happens to the Truck Assembly until after the Landing Gear Lever is selected to UP. When the Main Gear doors are within 4° of the fully open position, the Truck Assembly is hydraulically tilted by a Truck Tilt Actuator to the STOW position. It will tilt the Truck Assembly to 12° toes down (front wheels down). Once this sequence is completed and the Doors are fully open, the retract actuator will safely retract the gear.

During Landing Gear extension and when both Main Gear Truck Assemblies are within 11° of the Down position, the Truck Tilt Actuator will hydraulically position the Truck Assemblies to the TILT position which is 12° toes up (front wheels up). This positions the Main Gear so that the aft wheels touchdown first.

Hope that helps - DOG


Why sgoukd the aft wheels touch first? In the 767, A380 and A350, forward wheels touch down first with a forward tilt without breaking anything.


Can of worms... Opening. ;)

The theory is that the trailing axle touches down first, this can make for a smoother landing.


What's funny is, when I was a kid, I would see the pictures of the 742s and 744s, I would see the tilted gears and I would think they were that way to dampen the touchdown(and hence why narrowbodies didn't have multiple bogeys like that), and adjusted manually(like a trim wheel) by the pilot or the flight engineer according to the calculated and anticipated severity of the touchdown and flare. I was overthinking it! When I first saw a 747 take-off and rotate and see that gears were still tilted at departure it confused the hell out of me and I learned the truth.
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:11 pm

From personal experience operating the 764 I can tell you that ‘forward trailing’ landing gear is very unforgiving on touchdown and amplifies the effect of anything less than a perfect landing, particularly if you haven’t completely straightened out with a crosswind


By contrast the aft trailing gear on the 757 was very forgiving, smooth touchdowns were not difficult



I don’t know why any aircraft manufacturer would design in this ‘forward trail’ bogie system on the MLG, I understand it may be required for stowage purposes on retraction but, as has been discussed it can be easily mechanically repositioned to an ‘aft trail’ position allowing for consistently smoother landings


The A380 with its landing gear design has the same issue with numerous anecdotes of ‘rough landing, the A359’s landing gear has a similar geometry I wonder if it’s unforgiving as well
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MrHMSH
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:34 am

On a similar note, is there any reason the A359's main gear is 'forward trailing', but the A35K's is 'aft trailing'?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:04 am

MrHMSH wrote:
On a similar note, is there any reason the A359's main gear is 'forward trailing', but the A35K's is 'aft trailing'?


The additional axle might have something to do with it. Getting in and out of the gear bay probably requires a different angle.

Both -900 and -1000 have a bogie pitch trimmer actuator that, as per the FCOM, "holds each MLG bogie in a correct pitch attitude" when off the ground.
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BREECH
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:59 am

If you wanna see some REALLY confused landing gear, check out A340. Side ones tilted back, middle one tilted forward.
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DH106
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:03 am

BREECH wrote:
If you wanna see some REALLY confused landing gear, check out A340. Side ones tilted back, middle one tilted forward.


That's only on the A340 500/600 - prior versions only had a twin wheel centre gear.
I suspect the reason for the forward tilting middle bogie is - as it's forward retracting - to allow its gear doors ahead of the unit to open. Although, having said that, there must be some sort of tilt actuator on this gear as it tilts flat inside the gear wheel.
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BREECH
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:08 pm

DH106 wrote:
BREECH wrote:
If you wanna see some REALLY confused landing gear, check out A340. Side ones tilted back, middle one tilted forward.


That's only on the A340 500/600 - prior versions only had a twin wheel centre gear.
I suspect the reason for the forward tilting middle bogie is - as it's forward retracting - to allow its gear doors ahead of the unit to open. Although, having said that, there must be some sort of tilt actuator on this gear as it tilts flat inside the gear wheel.


Interesting that I came across this topic. I JUST watched A340-500 LG retraction test yesterday on youtube. :-) The center truck retracts backwards, and, you're right, it first tilts closer to vertical before it folds backwards into the bay.
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DH106
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:06 pm

BREECH wrote:
DH106 wrote:
BREECH wrote:
If you wanna see some REALLY confused landing gear, check out A340. Side ones tilted back, middle one tilted forward.


That's only on the A340 500/600 - prior versions only had a twin wheel centre gear.
I suspect the reason for the forward tilting middle bogie is - as it's forward retracting - to allow its gear doors ahead of the unit to open. Although, having said that, there must be some sort of tilt actuator on this gear as it tilts flat inside the gear wheel.


Interesting that I came across this topic. I JUST watched A340-500 LG retraction test yesterday on youtube. :-) The center truck retracts backwards, and, you're right, it first tilts closer to vertical before it folds backwards into the bay.


It actually retracts forwards!
If it's this video you were watching, the viewpoint is looking towards the front of the A340.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15z48XuoJfE
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:25 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
The additional axle might have something to do with it. Getting in and out of the gear bay probably requires a different angle.

Most previous discussions about this topic came to the same conclusion. But I'm not satisfied by this answer.
The angle during transit / when retracted is different to when it's extended. If it was always the same angle, I would agree. But as the angle is set to a specific value after the gear was extended, there must be a reason for this exact angle.
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:45 pm

Horstroad wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The additional axle might have something to do with it. Getting in and out of the gear bay probably requires a different angle.

Most previous discussions about this topic came to the same conclusion. But I'm not satisfied by this answer.
The angle during transit / when retracted is different to when it's extended. If it was always the same angle, I would agree. But as the angle is set to a specific value after the gear was extended, there must be a reason for this exact angle.


Fair point.

The info isn't in the FCOM. I suppose it's one of those "pilots don't need to know so we didn't put it in there" things. ;)
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BREECH
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:13 am

DH106 wrote:
It actually retracts forwards!
If it's this video you were watching, the viewpoint is looking towards the front of the A340.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15z48XuoJfE

You're absolutely right. It actually is the video I watched. AND I noticed how I mixed up front and back of the plane. And then I mixed it up again here. Thanks.
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Leej
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:00 pm

Have always wondered this, even with Cap'n Joe on his channel explaining. I get that gear is sometimes actuated to a position to get it in the gear bay, but doesn't explain why some are toe first, some heel. Also - that A340 gear swing vid. If you notice, the gear shortens as it retracts. Why can't Boeing do the same without that bizarre arrangement they have cobbled together for the -10Max?
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:45 pm

Leej wrote:
Have always wondered this, even with Cap'n Joe on his channel explaining. I get that gear is sometimes actuated to a position to get it in the gear bay, but doesn't explain why some are toe first, some heel. Also - that A340 gear swing vid. If you notice, the gear shortens as it retracts. Why can't Boeing do the same without that bizarre arrangement they have cobbled together for the -10Max?

My understanding is that they'd have to add slides for the overwing exits if the gear were any taller on the ground.
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:57 pm

GSOtoIND wrote:
Leej wrote:
Have always wondered this, even with Cap'n Joe on his channel explaining. I get that gear is sometimes actuated to a position to get it in the gear bay, but doesn't explain why some are toe first, some heel. Also - that A340 gear swing vid. If you notice, the gear shortens as it retracts. Why can't Boeing do the same without that bizarre arrangement they have cobbled together for the -10Max?

My understanding is that they'd have to add slides for the overwing exits if the gear were any taller on the ground.


Hmm yes I understand that too. Suppose it couldn't just be 'activated' during taxi out/in? RTO and system automatically 'deflates' as such. Anyway - sure they thought of that already. All this woe for a couple of slides. Wonder how much they weigh?
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:40 am

Leej wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
Leej wrote:
Have always wondered this, even with Cap'n Joe on his channel explaining. I get that gear is sometimes actuated to a position to get it in the gear bay, but doesn't explain why some are toe first, some heel. Also - that A340 gear swing vid. If you notice, the gear shortens as it retracts. Why can't Boeing do the same without that bizarre arrangement they have cobbled together for the -10Max?

My understanding is that they'd have to add slides for the overwing exits if the gear were any taller on the ground.


Hmm yes I understand that too. Suppose it couldn't just be 'activated' during taxi out/in? RTO and system automatically 'deflates' as such. Anyway - sure they thought of that already. All this woe for a couple of slides. Wonder how much they weigh?


It isn't only the weight. If you change the 737 too much it isn't a 737 anymore, and at some point, regulators would not accept this eternal type certificate grandfathering.

The landing gear on A330/A340 lengthens during extension. I don't think the lengthening could happen with weight on it, as you're jacking up the entire aircraft. At the very least it would make the system much heavier and more complex.
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:07 am

I think the 330/340 oleo is designed to depressurize so they can squeeze it in the bay. I'm not sure exactly how it works or why it was designed that way though....
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:16 am

LH707330 wrote:
I think the 330/340 oleo is designed to depressurize so they can squeeze it in the bay. I'm not sure exactly how it works or why it was designed that way though....


They designed it that way to make it fit. ;)

The oleo is not depressurised. There's a mechanical thingamabob called the "shortening mechanism" that retracts the shock absorber into the main leg.

If the shortening mechanism has somehow failed, you can't retract the gear. The ECAM for this condition is "L/G L (R) LENGTHENING FAULT", because why would you use the name of the mechanism? :roll:
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
DH106
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:15 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
I think the 330/340 oleo is designed to depressurize so they can squeeze it in the bay. I'm not sure exactly how it works or why it was designed that way though....


They designed it that way to make it fit. ;)

The oleo is not depressurised. There's a mechanical thingamabob called the "shortening mechanism" that retracts the shock absorber into the main leg.

If the shortening mechanism has somehow failed, you can't retract the gear. The ECAM for this condition is "L/G L (R) LENGTHENING FAULT", because why would you use the name of the mechanism? :roll:


Indeed - Concorde used a similar 'shortening mechanism' to pull the oleos in during retraction.
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:08 pm

Leej wrote:
Have always wondered this, even with Cap'n Joe on his channel explaining. I get that gear is sometimes actuated to a position to get it in the gear bay, but doesn't explain why some are toe first, some heel. Also - that A340 gear swing vid. If you notice, the gear shortens as it retracts. Why can't Boeing do the same without that bizarre arrangement they have cobbled together for the -10Max?


'This question pops up periodically relating to different aircraft. Invariably the angle of dangle of the bogie is to enable the gear to fit into the most compact and ideally located wheelwell possible.
There are a couple of exceptions that come to mind. The A330/340 employs a "rocking bogie" (to use Airbus terminology) to improve aft fuselage ground clearance. As the main gear retracts it shortens and as a result of the shortening action the tilt is removed so that the bogie lies along the longitudinal axis when in the wheelwell. The 777 bogie changes from a nose up tilt with the gear down to a nose down tilt on retraction to fit into the wheelwell.
On a 747 the wing gear bogie goes into the wheelwell across the longitudinal axis resulting in a much shorter wheelwell than if it had been along the longitudinal axis.
The 767 and A310 (and Convair 990) all featured a nose down tilt to the bogie whereas their sisters the 757, A300 and Convair 880 either had nose up bogie tilt or the bogie was at right angles to the main leg.'

From previous a.net forums...

'The 777 is a good example of all of the tilted-gear issues. When coming out (or going into) the gear bays, the gear is tilted at 5 degrees DOWN ti fit into the bays (the 777 MLG is HUGE!). When down (in flight) the MLG is tiled 13 degrees up. This is for a number of reasons. Firstly, the gear will straighten to the horizontal before the full weight of the aircraft is placed on the gear strut, so the landing is softened. Secondly, when the gear goes to the horizontal upon touchdown, the torque produced helps level the aircraft. Admittedly, this torque isn't much, but it helps.

Interesting note, the 767 has the unusual tendancy to pitch down quite rapidly during landing, which is why the MLG on the 67 is tilted forwards. Upon touchdown, the MLG straightens and stops the pitching forward. The downside to this, however, is that the the forward gear on the MLG touchdown first, so the 767 landing is quite a bit rougher than the 757 or the 777, both of which have up-tilted gear'.

'B757 AMM:

Truck Positioner Actuator (Fig. 7) (1) The truck positioner actuator is a hydraulic piston-type actuator. It operates hydraulically in one direction. This actuator applies the force to put the truck assembly at an angle to permit clearance with the structure when the landing gear moves to the extended or retracted position. The actuator is installed on the aft side of the shock strut near the truck assembly. The head end attaches to the shock strut inner cylinder, and the rod end attaches to the truck beam.

Functional Description (1) Landing Gear Retraction (a) The retraction cycle starts with the landing gear down and locked and the main landing gear door closed and locked. With the control lever in UP, hydraulic fluid flows through the selector valve to pressurize the hydraulic lines for landing gear retraction. (b) Hydraulic fluid flows through the truck positioner shuttle valve to the truck positioner actuator. The actuator extends to put the truck the at an angle for entry into the wheel well.'

'B767 AMM:

Truck Positioner (Fig. 9) (1) The truck positioner is a hydraulic actuator which tilts the truck to fit into the wheel well during gear retraction. It is mounted on the aft side of the shock strut between the truck and shock strut. The positioner retracts to tilt the gear during retraction; during landing an internal relief valve allows the positioner to be extended by the gear.

1) Gear Extension (a) To extend the main gear, the landing gear control lever should be moved to DN. Quadrants and cables then move the main gear selector valve to direct pressure from the center hydraulic system to the left and right main gears. (b) The truck positioner receives pressure from the selector valve to tilt the truck. This allows the gear to extend without the truck interfering with the wheel well.'

The gear on B757/767 aircraft is tilted to clear and fit into the wheel wells. No other reason.

It is about how the fit is into the wheel wellwith how the wing and fuselage are designed.
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LH707330
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:24 pm

DH106 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
I think the 330/340 oleo is designed to depressurize so they can squeeze it in the bay. I'm not sure exactly how it works or why it was designed that way though....


They designed it that way to make it fit. ;)

The oleo is not depressurised. There's a mechanical thingamabob called the "shortening mechanism" that retracts the shock absorber into the main leg.

If the shortening mechanism has somehow failed, you can't retract the gear. The ECAM for this condition is "L/G L (R) LENGTHENING FAULT", because why would you use the name of the mechanism? :roll:


Indeed - Concorde used a similar 'shortening mechanism' to pull the oleos in during retraction.

That prompts the question: why did they design it that way? I imagine having the structure further inboard may have saved some weight. If it's measurably better, why did other types not converge to this design? Why put the legs further out if it adds weight?
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:00 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
I think the 330/340 oleo is designed to depressurize so they can squeeze it in the bay. I'm not sure exactly how it works or why it was designed that way though....


They designed it that way to make it fit. ;)

The oleo is not depressurised. There's a mechanical thingamabob called the "shortening mechanism" that retracts the shock absorber into the main leg.

If the shortening mechanism has somehow failed, you can't retract the gear. The ECAM for this condition is "L/G L (R) LENGTHENING FAULT", because why would you use the name of the mechanism? :roll:

Sounds like Airbus went to Hewlett-Packard and had the man responsible for "PC LOAD LETTER" develop the ECAM messages.
 
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:41 pm

LH707330 wrote:
That prompts the question: why did they design it that way? I imagine having the structure further inboard may have saved some weight. If it's measurably better, why did other types not converge to this design? Why put the legs further out if it adds weight?


In the case of Concorde, the necessary length of the main gear was dictated by rear fuselage clearance requirements, but the width available for positioning the gear & retraction was constrained by the position of the engines (which in turn was dictated by the wing geometry). The full length gear was too large to retract sideways in the space available, hence the 'shortening mechanism' to pull the oleos in during retraction.
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:53 pm

Trimeresurus wrote:
The 787, while taking off, has gears tilted down like a 767, but prior to approach it seems like it's tilted up, just like a 757 or an A330. Does the angle of the gear change with the pitch of the airplane? If so, why is that?

Edit:never mind, it just becomes tilted down right before entering the wheel well, not after rotating. However, this raises another question, why wasn't it tilted down like the 767 in the first place, if that's the arrangement that how it fits into the well?


Captain Joe explains in a video.
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Leej
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Re: Why does 787(and maybe A350) landing gear looks titled down instead of up during departure?

Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:22 am

But Captain Joe doesn't really explain it, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread.....Caltech replied earlier with:
'Interesting note, the 767 has the unusual tendancy to pitch down quite rapidly during landing, which is why the MLG on the 67 is tilted forwards. Upon touchdown, the MLG straightens and stops the pitching forward. The downside to this, however, is that the the forward gear on the MLG touchdown first, so the 767 landing is quite a bit rougher than the 757 or the 777, both of which have up-tilted gear'.

If that is the case, then you are saying Boeing knew before first flight that it would have a tendency to pitch down on landing - surely they didn't re-design the gear after it's first flights and they found this issue? Hope that makes sense!

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos