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nopper
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Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:35 am

Hi Guys,

Anyone knows that when Boeing develop 767-300 to 767-300ER, what kind of type certificate did it have to obtain? A new TC, or STC?

Thanks!
 
VMCA787
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:05 am

IIRC, amended Type Certificate.
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Polot
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:38 am

The 763ER is on the same type certificate as the 763A (and all the other factory 767 variants). As mentioned the TC was just amended.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:14 pm

What are the physical differences? I flew on a Delta 767-300A PDX ATL a few years ago which was exciting for my inner spotter as they’re rarer than the ER but the passenger experience and aircraft appearance was indistinguishable from an ER. It’s more than a paperwork difference or a tank fitted but not plumbed in, right?
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Polot
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:05 pm

cedarjet wrote:
What are the physical differences? I flew on a Delta 767-300A PDX ATL a few years ago which was exciting for my inner spotter as they’re rarer than the ER but the passenger experience and aircraft appearance was indistinguishable from an ER. It’s more than a paperwork difference or a tank fitted but not plumbed in, right?

Much larger fuel capacity and greater MTOW with structural alterations to a support it. Visually though no exterior or interior difference.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:46 pm

cedarjet wrote:
What are the physical differences? I flew on a Delta 767-300A PDX ATL a few years ago which was exciting for my inner spotter as they’re rarer than the ER but the passenger experience and aircraft appearance was indistinguishable from an ER. It’s more than a paperwork difference or a tank fitted but not plumbed in, right?


It’s way more than a paperwork change. The airplane was re-engined. The 767-300ER used the PW4000 & CF6-80C2 versus the JT9D & CF6-80A as well as RB211s. The thrust increase was around 20% that increased range significantly.

Marketing worked a lot differently in the 1980s. The re-engine and payload increases made the 767-300 to 767-300ER upgrade much more significant than the A320neo or 737MAX re-engines. The 767-300ER did not receive significant interior changes.
 
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ArcticSEA
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:46 pm

cedarjet wrote:
What are the physical differences?

More of a customer option, but smaller cargo door in the case of Delta's 763A vs. the ERs.
Asiana, for example, had 763As with the larger cargo door. Air Algerie had the smaller one on their 763As.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:53 pm

ArcticSEA wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
What are the physical differences?

More of a customer option, but smaller cargo door in the case of Delta's 763A vs. the ERs.
Asiana, for example, had 763As with the larger cargo door. Air Algerie had the smaller one on their 763As.



And conversely, almost all 763ERs have the larger FWD Cargo doors, with only some of HAL's earlier models being an exception.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
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MO11
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:54 pm

nopper wrote:
Hi Guys,

Anyone knows that when Boeing develop 767-300 to 767-300ER, what kind of type certificate did it have to obtain? A new TC, or STC?

Thanks!



There is NO type certificate for the 767-300 (ER). It is a marketing designation for a 767-300 with increased fuel capacities and weights to give it longer legs. All Boeing would have to do is certify the 767-300 to operate at these higher weights.
 
N965UW
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:03 pm

I also think that the winglet STC is only good for the -300ER, and the -300 was never certified for them. Plus the -300ER has a higher optional MLW of 320,000 lbs.
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747classic
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:18 pm

MO11 wrote:
nopper wrote:
Hi Guys,

Anyone knows that when Boeing develop 767-300 to 767-300ER, what kind of type certificate did it have to obtain? A new TC, or STC?

Thanks!



There is NO type certificate for the 767-300 (ER). It is a marketing designation for a 767-300 with increased fuel capacities and weights to give it longer legs. All Boeing would have to do is certify the 767-300 to operate at these higher weights.


That's correct :checkmark:

In both the 767-200ER and the 767-300ER, the Extended Range (ER) marking only indicates a high grossweight variant of the 767-200 and -300.
In the FAA Type Certificate no seperate "ER" sub type is mentioned.
The 767-400ER is mentioned as a 767 subtype, because no 767-400 has ever been certified.

See : https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... Rev_37.pdf

Note : the same is valid for the 747-400ER and the 747-400ERF, both are only high grossweight variants of the 747-400 and the 747-400F for the FAA.
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DL_Mech
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:11 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
What are the physical differences?

More of a customer option, but smaller cargo door in the case of Delta's 763A vs. the ERs.
Asiana, for example, had 763As with the larger cargo door. Air Algerie had the smaller one on their 763As.



And conversely, almost all 763ERs have the larger FWD Cargo doors, with only some of HAL's earlier models being an exception.


I believe the Hawaiian planes were originally ordered by LTU.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:18 am

DL_Mech wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
More of a customer option, but smaller cargo door in the case of Delta's 763A vs. the ERs.
Asiana, for example, had 763As with the larger cargo door. Air Algerie had the smaller one on their 763As.



And conversely, almost all 763ERs have the larger FWD Cargo doors, with only some of HAL's earlier models being an exception.


I believe the Hawaiian planes were originally ordered by LTU.



Thanks. I knew they were not HAL new builds as a good deal of theirs were not. In fact, I think out of the 24 they operated, only 10 were new from factory. The rest came either from LTU or, for the Bogo models, DL.

That does not surprise me. We used to do a lot of work on their planes and it did seem that there was more or less every Exit, Service and Cargo door configuration to be found on 767s therein...
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
unimproved
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:46 am

N965UW wrote:
I also think that the winglet STC is only good for the -300ER, and the -300 was never certified for them. Plus the -300ER has a higher optional MLW of 320,000 lbs.

It's probably more of a real world problem with the different wing than a paper certification thing.
 
nopper
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:30 am

nopper wrote:
Hi Guys,

Anyone knows that when Boeing develop 767-300 to 767-300ER, what kind of type certificate did it have to obtain? A new TC, or STC?

Thanks!



Thanks to ALL!
 
johnclipper
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:17 am

Same with the B777 - there is no B777-200ER, just a 777-200, -200LR, -300, -300ER and F. If you look at the plates inside the door of a -200 "ER", it says "777-2XX (Boeing Airline Code)"
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N1120A
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:05 pm

N965UW wrote:
I also think that the winglet STC is only good for the -300ER, and the -300 was never certified for them. Plus the -300ER has a higher optional MLW of 320,000 lbs.


That's not uncommon. STCs frequently are issued only as to certain configurations, even if they would work just fine on other configurations. The cowling on one of my planes is only certified with a certain, upgrade exhaust system. That the winglet STC is only on the -300ER isn't surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if it also only applied to certain engines as well.
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richcam427
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Re: Type Certificate from 767-300 to 767-300ER

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:06 pm

N1120A wrote:
N965UW wrote:
I also think that the winglet STC is only good for the -300ER, and the -300 was never certified for them. Plus the -300ER has a higher optional MLW of 320,000 lbs.


That's not uncommon. STCs frequently are issued only as to certain configurations, even if they would work just fine on other configurations. The cowling on one of my planes is only certified with a certain, upgrade exhaust system. That the winglet STC is only on the -300ER isn't surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if it also only applied to certain engines as well.


Your last statement is correct, I believe. I don't believe the winglet STC was ever certified on the RR-powered 767s.

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