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Toxic fumes

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:35 pm
by tmlucia
First time (I think) posting here. Apologies if this has been posted before.

Curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

https://www.latimes.com/projects/toxic- ... avel-woes/

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:44 pm
by Strebav8or
Seems to be prevalent problem, if you read any other av news site, with the A318-319/320/321.

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:03 pm
by N965UW
From the article:

A 2002 study mandated by Congress recommended requiring carbon monoxide sensors on all passenger airplanes. Today, most homes have them; airplanes do not.


It's interesting how CO detectors are so widespread in light GA, but not in jets where everybody breathes bleed air

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:52 am
by dstblj52
Strebav8or wrote:
Seems to be prevalent problem, if you read any other av news site, with the A318-319/320/321.

mostly on iae engined aircraft interestingly enough

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:50 am
by zeke
N965UW wrote:
From the article:

A 2002 study mandated by Congress recommended requiring carbon monoxide sensors on all passenger airplanes. Today, most homes have them; airplanes do not.


It's interesting how CO detectors are so widespread in light GA, but not in jets where everybody breathes bleed air


Carbon monoxide is a colourless and odourless gas, that is a by product of combustion. What was described in the article was visible and had a smell, so it is not carbon monoxide.

It’s widespread in GA because they heat the cabin by taking air from around the exhaust downstream of combustion where carbon monoxide is a by product of combustion. Bleed air from jet engines is taken from the compressor upstream of combustion.

Lawmakers advocating carbon monoxide detectors in an airliner is like lawmakers advocating injecting disinfectant for COVID. It is not their area of expertise.

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:34 am
by m1m2
If there is a failure of one (or more) of the seals in the compressor, there is the possibility of oil getting into the bleed air system. This, in turn, travels to the air conditioning packs and the heat within the ACM/heat exchangers can cause smoke. This smoke is very acrid although I can't say if it contains CO (Carbon Monoxide) or not. Even without CO, I doubt it's good for your health. I know it makes the air in the cabin hard to breathe and will set off the smoke alarms in the lav.

Having said all that, Zeke is correct that you would not need a CO detector to know this is present, you smell it and feel it burning your eyes.

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:37 pm
by D L X
Strebav8or wrote:
Seems to be prevalent problem, if you read any other av news site, with the A318-319/320/321.

One of the big events discussed in this article was on a US 767 flown STT-CLT. That flight ended up being the last flight Capt. David Hill and his crew flew. Their medicals were revoked, and Capt. Hill ultimately fell into a deep depression and committed suicide after pleading for regulators to do something.

If i'm remembering correctly, the pilots had no idea that a fume event was even occurring until the flight attendants noted they both had completely bloodshot eyes when they landed.

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:42 pm
by kalvado
zeke wrote:
N965UW wrote:
From the article:

A 2002 study mandated by Congress recommended requiring carbon monoxide sensors on all passenger airplanes. Today, most homes have them; airplanes do not.


It's interesting how CO detectors are so widespread in light GA, but not in jets where everybody breathes bleed air


Carbon monoxide is a colourless and odourless gas, that is a by product of combustion. What was described in the article was visible and had a smell, so it is not carbon monoxide.

It’s widespread in GA because they heat the cabin by taking air from around the exhaust downstream of combustion where carbon monoxide is a by product of combustion. Bleed air from jet engines is taken from the compressor upstream of combustion.

Lawmakers advocating carbon monoxide detectors in an airliner is like lawmakers advocating injecting disinfectant for COVID. It is not their area of expertise.

Significant difference, though, is that CO detector cannot harm anyone (unlike instant harm with desinfectant) - not until there is an actual problem. It may be a cost (oh, certification); but those detectors are generally small and lightweight. There may or may not be very useful, but that is a different story

Re: Toxic fumes

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:28 pm
by mmahpeel
I remember this issue was in the press in the local Seattle papers a few decades ago related to Alaska Airlines crew and fume events on the MD80 series.

Here is something from the Seattle Times archives:

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archiv ... ug=2967560