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LRGT
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Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:15 am

Lots of big A380’s, 747’s, 767’s, and 777’s were refitted with brand new business class seats within the last 24 months... seats that cost MORE than the entire planes are worth

Delta 777’s and Qantas A380’s come to mind first, but I’m sure there are lots of examples.

Can these brand-new seats ($100k+ per seat) be reused on other airplanes, or is this billions of dollars in waste?

I’m pretty sure Qantas can move all its A380 seats into A330’s if it wanted to. I think the cabin width and seat rails are identical between those models? But it might not even need them for the A330’s.. then what? Yard sale?

Also, United 763’s haven’t been retired yet, but they likely will be once all 787’s receive Polaris seats. Especially since used 767’s are worth substantially more than used 777’s right now (like 3x more... $9M vs $3M), due to cargo conversion ability and “feedstock” demand from Amazon. Can those almost-new seats from the 763’s be re-used on a 787? The 78 config is 1-2-1 like the 77 (instead of 1-1-1 on the 76)
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
Tokyo777
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:54 am

The simple answer is no. On Boeing aircraft, you have different certification basis. 767-300s are 9g aircraft. 787s are 16g. The seats are not tested to the same standard. Even if you looked at aircraft with equivalent testing standards (e.g. 777 and 787, but even then there are slight differences), there are physical differences between the seat track locations, seat track types, locations relative to sidewalls, etc. Then you have issues with cabin widths (airlines maximize seat width while minimizing aisle width), IFE compatibility, etc.
The best bet for reuse is to completely disassemble the seat and see if you can use a few of the nuts and bolts. But even then, parts may have wear and tear and you'd just opt for a new part.
 
Tiredofhumanity
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:05 am

LRGT wrote:
Lots of big A380’s, 747’s, 767’s, and 777’s were refitted with brand new business class seats within the last 24 months... seats that cost MORE than the entire planes are worth

Delta 777’s and Qantas A380’s come to mind first, but I’m sure there are lots of examples.

Can these brand-new seats ($100k+ per seat) be reused on other airplanes, or is this billions of dollars in waste?

I’m pretty sure Qantas can move all its A380 seats into A330’s if it wanted to. I think the cabin width and seat rails are identical between those models? But it might not even need them for the A330’s.. then what? Yard sale?

Also, United 763’s haven’t been retired yet, but they likely will be once all 787’s receive Polaris seats. Especially since used 767’s are worth substantially more than used 777’s right now (like 3x more... $9M vs $3M), due to cargo conversion ability and “feedstock” demand from Amazon. Can those almost-new seats from the 763’s be re-used on a 787? The 78 config is 1-2-1 like the 77 (instead of 1-1-1 on the 76)


The previous response I think answers your question.

Also, do you have evidence UA is thinking about dumping the 763's? 777's actually haven't been hit as bad as the 763ER due to the EIS year of each type (1986 vs. 1995). 1995 is still state of the art in this industry.

EDIT: A330 is also a 1994 airplane. Where were you in '94?
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:06 am

You could sell them on Ebay, but the shipping costs would kill you.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
Sokes
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:26 am

How can a seat cost 100.000 $ ?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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eeightning
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:25 pm

Picture a $16,000 seat, and then multiply by 6 to put it in an airplane.
 
johns624
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:03 pm

Tiredofhumanity wrote:
777's actually haven't been hit as bad as the 763ER due to the EIS year of each type (1986 vs. 1995). 1995 is still state of the art in this industry.

EDIT: A330 is also a 1994 airplane. Where were you in '94?
Tiredofhumanity...if you think 1994 was bad, I've heard that 1989 was the worst year ever.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:10 pm

LRGT wrote:
Can these brand-new seats ($100k+ per seat) be reused on other airplanes, or is this billions of dollars in waste?


$Billions? How many planes do you think got refitted with new lie-flat J seats in the last 2-3 years? You might want to check your math. All seats get replaced eventually, and nobody wants a ratty J cabin. Some replacements had to happen.

eeightning wrote:
Picture a $16,000 seat, and then multiply by 6 to put it in an airplane.



$84K in wages and benefits per seat installation? I don't think so. UA spending 20 man-years (of its own, not contract labor) for a single 767 Polaris retrofit?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:40 pm

It has been done before. When US installed the reverse herringbone seats on their A330's, they took the old A330 seats and put them in their TATL 757's.
 
hoons90
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:52 pm

It's a sunk cost.
Such "waste" isn't unique to aircraft retirements. Cathay Pacific's old J class (herringbone) seats on their first 19 777-300ERs barely lasted 4-5 years before they were replaced by the new Cirrus reverse herringbone seats.
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Polot
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:09 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
It has been done before. When US installed the reverse herringbone seats on their A330's, they took the old A330 seats and put them in their TATL 757's.

I also believe CO’s original 757 J seats were taken from the DC-10 fleet.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:32 pm

johns624 wrote:
Tiredofhumanity...if you think 1994 was bad, I've heard that 1989 was the worst year ever.


Ah yes, the year that the A320 design was set in stone. You were not the only one that read that and thought 1989.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

Former AMT on A220,A310,A319/20/21,A330,A350,B707,B717,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,B777,DC-9,DC-10,L-1011,
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B777LRF
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:28 pm

Sokes wrote:
How can a seat cost 100.000 $ ?


In aviation terms, that's not far off 'peanuts' territory.

I've just reviewed an order we placed with a parts supplier, and it's eyewatering expensive. These are engine parts, but still, 75K for a surge control valve is a fair amount of money. Or how about an engine starter at around 120K? Need a bleed overheat monitor? That'll be 70K, but only after discount because we bought a few of them.
Signature. You just read one.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:35 pm

It's definitely been done before. I imagibe it's quite a bit of work and only works sometimes. Might be easier to find an airline operating the same fleet type and see if they need an upgrade?
 
Tiredofhumanity
Posts: 168
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:37 pm

DL_Mech wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Tiredofhumanity...if you think 1994 was bad, I've heard that 1989 was the worst year ever.


Ah yes, the year that the A320 design was set in stone. You were not the only one that read that and thought 1989.


Hey, '94 was a great year. :D

Back to topic, reading about these instances of seats being located from an old WB to a 757 makes me wonder if this was more feasible than previously thought.

I wonder about the seat tracks though... 787 would be very difficult to transplant onto due to the "sunken" seat tracks and wiring channels. I think the A350 has sunken tracks also, but with standard track fittings.
 
Chemist
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:12 pm

You would think aircraft makers would standardize tracks and some connections. At least within the same manufacturer.
 
johns624
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:38 am

[twoid][/twoid]
DL_Mech wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Tiredofhumanity...if you think 1994 was bad, I've heard that 1989 was the worst year ever.


Ah yes, the year that the A320 design was set in stone. You were not the only one that read that and thought 1989.
Especially since we have a new poster and one who hasn't posted since March, both with the same writing style.
 
workhorse
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:52 am

Oh, I feel there is a new outbreak of chiliaenniakosiaogdontaenniaphobia* on this website.

*fear of the year 1989
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:17 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LRGT wrote:
Can these brand-new seats ($100k+ per seat) be reused on other airplanes, or is this billions of dollars in waste?


$Billions? How many planes do you think got refitted with new lie-flat J seats in the last 2-3 years? You might want to check your math. All seats get replaced eventually, and nobody wants a ratty J cabin. Some replacements had to happen.

eeightning wrote:
Picture a $16,000 seat, and then multiply by 6 to put it in an airplane.



$84K in wages and benefits per seat installation? I don't think so. UA spending 20 man-years (of its own, not contract labor) for a single 767 Polaris retrofit?


No, it is about accounting for the lawyers, high end designers, extensive testing, and extraordinary amount of documentation, together with highest quality manufacturing (every nut and bolt certified to aircraft standards!) for a low total production count. It's many millions of dollars of work divided by a few hundred total units that will be produced.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:02 am

Here is a photo of a DL 747 being scrapped. Y seats are removed, but the J class flat beds are still in place.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aero_icarus/44748235755/
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.

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CanadianNorth
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:39 am

eeightning wrote:
Picture a $16,000 seat, and then multiply by 6 to put it in an airplane.


MIflyer12 wrote:
$84K in wages and benefits per seat installation? I don't think so. UA spending 20 man-years (of its own, not contract labor) for a single 767 Polaris retrofit?


From what I've seen of airplane parts it's pretty normal for a new part to cost say $1000, and for that it's really more like $200 for the part itself, $100 for the labour and shop supplies to install and test it, and $700 for the piece of paper that says you're allowed to use that particular part on your airplane.
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Moosefire
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Re: Can airlines re-purpose new biz seats onto smaller a/c?

Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:32 am

usflyer msp wrote:
It has been done before. When US installed the reverse herringbone seats on their A330's, they took the old A330 seats and put them in their TATL 757's.

Bingo. This is exactly what first came to mind for me too.
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