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Trimeresurus
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Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:56 am

I am not talking about converts but rather purpose built ones.
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:08 pm

No. The 777F has a curtain as a cockpit door. We jokingly say it's a bulletproof curtain.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:13 pm

Even when you're doing a ferry or cargo-only flight in a pax airliner you just leave the door open.

What's the point of closing it?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
unimproved
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:11 pm

No normal cockpit doors, but on the 747 there is a locked door to the upper deck.
 
SoCalPilot
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:39 pm

I could have sworn that the MD-11F I flew on had a normal cockpit door, but maybe I was wrong.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:54 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
I could have sworn that the MD-11F I flew on had a normal cockpit door, but maybe I was wrong.


It actually does. It is however without door lock system.
 
N965UW
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:35 pm

The one 747-400 factory-built freighter I've been aboard had a simple curtain

Starlionblue wrote:
Even when you're doing a ferry or cargo-only flight in a pax airliner you just leave the door open.

What's the point of closing it?


Would an open door slam closed on takeoff/landing/high deck angles, or do the hinges have enough friction to keep it from flailing around?
You can always go around
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:08 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
I could have sworn that the MD-11F I flew on had a normal cockpit door, but maybe I was wrong.

It does. But they were not upgraded to the bulletproof doors required for passenger operations. At my operator the door lock is still in place, but the key is always in the door knob... and there is a spare key in the galley.
It's more a latch than a lock, but as the knob on the outside can't be turned and only unlatched with the key, it acts like a lock if you don't have the key.
The proper electronic door locks that would prevent entry with the key are not operational.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:31 pm

Our MD-11s had a locking cockpit door with a key pad for entry and an allow/deny switch in the cockpit. It was closed and locked regardless of jumpseaters or not.
 
SoCalPilot
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:23 am

CosmicCruiser wrote:
Our MD-11s had a locking cockpit door with a key pad for entry and an allow/deny switch in the cockpit. It was closed and locked regardless of jumpseaters or not.
Yea now that I know I remembered it correctly, I believe the crew closed the door for takeoff until cruise, and then kept it open for the remainder of the flight.

I remember that flight bc they let me sleep in the crew rest area which I'd never done before and then invited me into the cockpit and told me that if I could figure out the jumpseat I could sit in it. I did and it was an amazing approach into Anchorage. That was probably one of my favorite jumpseat experiences, really great UPS crew.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:38 am

N965UW wrote:
The one 747-400 factory-built freighter I've been aboard had a simple curtain

Starlionblue wrote:
Even when you're doing a ferry or cargo-only flight in a pax airliner you just leave the door open.

What's the point of closing it?


Would an open door slam closed on takeoff/landing/high deck angles, or do the hinges have enough friction to keep it from flailing around?


The A330 door is held in the open position by a rather strong magnet. It won't budge unless you give it a fairly decisive tug. The A350 door has a mechanism at the top that holds it in place when it is open. It looks like a version of those articulated door closers you see at the top of office and shop doors. (A magnet isn't practical on the A350 since the door just opens into open floor space. The A330 door opens to cover the closet on the left, and the magnet is mounted on that.)

The A350 one you might want to close for takeoff and landing, just in case. The A330 one won't budge.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:50 pm

The MD11 has little latches on the ceiling to keep it open, similar to those that hold your tray table up. The 777F has a strap around the curtain.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:28 pm

SoCalPilot wrote:
CosmicCruiser wrote:
Our MD-11s had a locking cockpit door with a key pad for entry and an allow/deny switch in the cockpit. It was closed and locked regardless of jumpseaters or not.
Yea now that I know I remembered it correctly, I believe the crew closed the door for takeoff until cruise, and then kept it open for the remainder of the flight.

I remember that flight bc they let me sleep in the crew rest area which I'd never done before and then invited me into the cockpit and told me that if I could figure out the jumpseat I could sit in it. I did and it was an amazing approach into Anchorage. That was probably one of my favorite jumpseat experiences, really great UPS crew.


That's fantastic that you had a great J/S experience. Where I was, though, I must say our doors were kept locked regardless of J/S or not. It would have been am issue if you left it open and had a chk ride. I think the idea was that you never know if someone had sneaked onboard. We also would allow J/S to sleep in the bunks if there was room and visit the cockpit.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:30 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Even when you're doing a ferry or cargo-only flight in a pax airliner you just leave the door open.

What's the point of closing it?



I just never like an open door, especially at night. Light and extra sounds coming up from behind always feel like an unwanted distraction. But experience tells me I an in the minority on that one.


N965UW wrote:
Would an open door slam closed on takeoff/landing/high deck angles, or do the hinges have enough friction to keep it from flailing around?


It can do that just taxiing, if not properly secured. Nothing like a good slam to startle you when negotiating an acute turn...
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
889091
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:23 pm

In case of smoke emanating from the main cargo deck due to fire, wouldn't you want a door in between to keep the smoke out as long as possible? I recall reading in one of the older threads that the cockpits have a positive air pressure (the exact technical term escapes me now) compared to the cabin.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:46 pm

A friend was doing a late night B757 ferry between LGA and JFK, IIRC, cockpit door was open. Part way thru the flight, to his great shock, walked a sleeping ramper. Once he got over it, he reminded the FO he was supposed to do a cabin check. And, the ramper, was worried he’d be reported for sleeping at work.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:03 pm

That's why we kept it locked.
 
gregorygoodwin
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:04 pm

All of our freighters have doors here at FedEx. This is probably because all of our ships have entry way jump seats, except for the 767's which have the jump seats on the flight deck itself. Several years back we installed locking ballistic doors on the MD10's and 11's. It was an interesting project in that our ships came with several different entryway configurations depending on who owned the ship previously.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:15 am

889091 wrote:
In case of smoke emanating from the main cargo deck due to fire, wouldn't you want a door in between to keep the smoke out as long as possible? I recall reading in one of the older threads that the cockpits have a positive air pressure (the exact technical term escapes me now) compared to the cabin.


The cockpit doesn't have positive pressure, but it does not use recirculated air. All "fresh" air.

I suppose in case of fire having a closed door could help.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:00 am

gregorygoodwin wrote:
All of our freighters have doors here at FedEx. This is probably because all of our ships have entry way jump seats, except for the 767's which have the jump seats on the flight deck itself. Several years back we installed locking ballistic doors on the MD10's and 11's. It was an interesting project in that our ships came with several different entryway configurations depending on who owned the ship previously.


Was this policy put in place because of Auburn Calloway?
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tb727
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:20 am

The 727's I flew had the original Boeing door, no lock. On the freighter Falcon 20's I flew we had a sliding door that helped keep it warm up front.
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fr8mech
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:39 pm

889091 wrote:
In case of smoke emanating from the main cargo deck due to fire, wouldn't you want a door in between to keep the smoke out as long as possible? I recall reading in one of the older threads that the cockpits have a positive air pressure (the exact technical term escapes me now) compared to the cabin.


Regardless of whether a door is installed or not, there is a physical barrier between the cockpit/courier area and the cargo area. It’s commonly referred to as the 9G bulkhead or net. Our freighters, purpose built, have a bulkhead. Many conversions have a net with with a smoke curtain. Some have a combination of the two.
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CosmicCruiser
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:22 pm

gregorygoodwin wrote:
All of our freighters have doors here at FedEx. This is probably because all of our ships have entry way jump seats, except for the 767's which have the jump seats on the flight deck itself. Several years back we installed locking ballistic doors on the MD10's and 11's. It was an interesting project in that our ships came with several different entryway configurations depending on who owned the ship previously.

As far as I know the 777 does not have doors.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:25 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
gregorygoodwin wrote:
All of our freighters have doors here at FedEx. This is probably because all of our ships have entry way jump seats, except for the 767's which have the jump seats on the flight deck itself. Several years back we installed locking ballistic doors on the MD10's and 11's. It was an interesting project in that our ships came with several different entryway configurations depending on who owned the ship previously.


Was this policy put in place because of Auburn Calloway?


All the jets have cockpit seats as well and the foyer seats can be varied in number.

I don't think the Calloway incident was the reason but it did change J/S policy.
 
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:25 pm

CosmicCruiser wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
gregorygoodwin wrote:
All of our freighters have doors here at FedEx. This is probably because all of our ships have entry way jump seats, except for the 767's which have the jump seats on the flight deck itself. Several years back we installed locking ballistic doors on the MD10's and 11's. It was an interesting project in that our ships came with several different entryway configurations depending on who owned the ship previously.


Was this policy put in place because of Auburn Calloway?


All the jets have cockpit seats as well and the foyer seats can be varied in number.

I don't think the Calloway incident was the reason but it did change J/S policy.[/quote

At the time of the Calloway incident, the Douglas trijets required that the cockpit door was latched open, per the STC, since the L-1 and L-2 doors were considered the primary emergency exits. This all changed after 9/11/2001 when security outweighted "safety". At first, a heavy mechanical door lock was installed and mandated to be closed at all times except when necessary to access the cabin. This created not only a safety hazard for the flight crew being unable to access the primary emergency exits, but also any jumpseaters in the cabin who could not access the secondary exits in the cockpit. Later, this door lock was replaced with a solenoid lock with the keypad.

The situation in the Boeing 727 fleet was different. In those freighters, the cockpit windows were the primary emergency exits and there were no jumpseats located outside of the cockpit.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:33 pm

Correct. I wasn't going to get into 9/11 but that's true, Calloway had nothing to do with it, I was incorrect that the 727 had j/s in the foyer. It did not. Didn't the expected performance of the 9G net have something to do with it too? Most everything in the galley would be crushed if the only support was the 9G net.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Do cargoliners have locked cockpit doors? Or cockpit doors for that matter?

Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:18 am

CosmicCruiser wrote:
gregorygoodwin wrote:
All of our freighters have doors here at FedEx. This is probably because all of our ships have entry way jump seats, except for the 767's which have the jump seats on the flight deck itself. Several years back we installed locking ballistic doors on the MD10's and 11's. It was an interesting project in that our ships came with several different entryway configurations depending on who owned the ship previously.

As far as I know the 777 does not have doors.


You are correct the 777 has only a curtain that they keep open most all the time anyway. The 767 has all cockpit jumpseats and the other A/C have a mix of cabin and cockpit jumpseats.

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