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PowerJet
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767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:48 am

Mods, you know what to do if this has already been talked about, and please have mercy on me, but years ago I was on a US Airways 767 a few times where they took off with only the leading edge slats deployed. the 762 on every other airline took off with flaps. Does this happen lots on the 762 or is there some sort of regulatory approval that allows that particular airline or aircraft to do that? I thought it was amazing that such a heavy aircraft could do this, when smaller jets simply must have flaps on takeoff. Cool to watch it happen, albeit a little scary to see the first time!
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:53 am

It is not NO flaps on takeoff. It is called flaps 1 and only the leading edge devices extend. Exists also on the 757-200. Usually only applicable at lighter weights on long runways and improves climb performance. Need not be considered for shorter runways or at higher weights. Nothing magical really.
 
hitower3
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:07 pm

The A300 and A310 could also take off with no flaps, slats only deployed under certain circumstances.
The F70 and F100 would even take off with a clean wing (no flaps, slats not even provided) quite regularly.
I was not aware of the 757 / 767 to be able to perform this kind of take off.
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:23 pm

Be easy in the thread starter. Not all of us are born knowing everything. We’ve even had pilots attempt to stop a takeoff as a passenger in this scenario.
 
toobz
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:59 pm

I was on a MEA A310 and we took off with no flaps. I damn near wet myself on the takeoff roll.
 
halrudy
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:09 pm

Thank you for posting as years ago I too was on a US 767-200 AMS-PHL and was so close to hitting the flight attendant call-button when I saw no flaps on our takeoff roll. I was sitting behind the wing so couldnt tell if the slats were extended but based on the above would have to guess so.
Have to admit it made me wonder....
 
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Crosswind
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:28 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
It is not NO flaps on takeoff. It is called flaps 1 and only the leading edge devices extend. Exists also on the 757-200.


Slight difference is that on the 757-200 the flaps do move for Flaps 1, even if only very slightly.
As you alluded to, Flaps 1 takeoff is not approved on the 757-300.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 2:45 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
It is not NO flaps on takeoff. It is called flaps 1 and only the leading edge devices extend.


Hmmm...when correcting the thread-starting member, did you just admit that his characterization was accurate?

It seems like you said:

"It's not a NO flaps takeoff. It's called something else. But it doesn't use flaps."

:smile: :smile: :smile:
 
744SPX
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:45 pm

Clean wing takeoff is no surprise for the F70, its wing loading is insanely low for a commercial jet.
 
N965UW
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:08 am

If I'm not mistaken, the 737 (at least NG) is capable of Flaps 1 takeoff as well

I know that flap settings will change based on a variety of factors, but what is the most common setting on the 767? If you Google "767 takeoff," a majority of the photos that come up appear to show Flaps 15 if you look closely. How often will Flaps 1 be selected vs. 5 vs. 15?
You can always go around
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:13 pm

N965UW wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the 737 (at least NG) is capable of Flaps 1 takeoff as well

I know that flap settings will change based on a variety of factors, but what is the most common setting on the 767? If you Google "767 takeoff," a majority of the photos that come up appear to show Flaps 15 if you look closely. How often will Flaps 1 be selected vs. 5 vs. 15?


In my outfit on the 763 most of the time flaps 5, on rare occasion (short or slippery runway) flaps 15. The 763 is not certified for flaps 1 takeoff. Not many 762s around anymore, save a couple of dozen freighters.
 
bhill
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:32 pm

I think the flap setting such as this would depend on the conveyor belt velocity...................................................
Carpe Pices
 
N1120A
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:42 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
N965UW wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the 737 (at least NG) is capable of Flaps 1 takeoff as well

I know that flap settings will change based on a variety of factors, but what is the most common setting on the 767? If you Google "767 takeoff," a majority of the photos that come up appear to show Flaps 15 if you look closely. How often will Flaps 1 be selected vs. 5 vs. 15?


In my outfit on the 763 most of the time flaps 5, on rare occasion (short or slippery runway) flaps 15. The 763 is not certified for flaps 1 takeoff. Not many 762s around anymore, save a couple of dozen freighters.


Well, and a growing number of KC-767/KC-46s.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Wed Dec 23, 2020 5:28 pm

N1120A wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
N965UW wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, the 737 (at least NG) is capable of Flaps 1 takeoff as well

I know that flap settings will change based on a variety of factors, but what is the most common setting on the 767? If you Google "767 takeoff," a majority of the photos that come up appear to show Flaps 15 if you look closely. How often will Flaps 1 be selected vs. 5 vs. 15?


In my outfit on the 763 most of the time flaps 5, on rare occasion (short or slippery runway) flaps 15. The 763 is not certified for flaps 1 takeoff. Not many 762s around anymore, save a couple of dozen freighters.


Well, and a growing number of KC-767/KC-46s.


Sort of. The KC46 would more properly be 767-250s, what with being about 6ft longer and having a good deal of 764 avionics back-fitted...

I do doubt the USAF permits Flaps 1 for takeoff given the increase in weight w/o corresponding change in wing area. I would even suppose that Flaps 1 on the 762 is only for the Bogo model as the ER is nearly 80,000lbs heavier at MTOW.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:48 pm

It depends on the trade-offs—long, maybe really long, runway, but second segment limited using Flaps 1 would allow more weight. Lots of 13,000’ military runways, if Max tire speed and Max brake energy allow a F1 take-off. Military has lots of crazy numbers like this. I’ve exceeded an 11,500’ roll on Torrejon’s old 13,500’ runway and used every bit of Dover’s 14 which was similar length.
 
Max Q
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:54 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
N1120A wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

In my outfit on the 763 most of the time flaps 5, on rare occasion (short or slippery runway) flaps 15. The 763 is not certified for flaps 1 takeoff. Not many 762s around anymore, save a couple of dozen freighters.


Well, and a growing number of KC-767/KC-46s.


Sort of. The KC46 would more properly be 767-250s, what with being about 6ft longer and having a good deal of 764 avionics back-fitted...

I do doubt the USAF permits Flaps 1 for takeoff given the increase in weight w/o corresponding change in wing area. I would even suppose that Flaps 1 on the 762 is only for the Bogo model as the ER is nearly 80,000lbs heavier at MTOW.



Our 767-224ER’s were certified for F1 take off’s and afaik were the highest gross weight civil version available
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Thu Dec 24, 2020 5:53 am

Max Q wrote:


Our 767-224ER’s were certified for F1 take off’s and afaik were the highest gross weight civil version available



Very interesting. Were there restrictions involving proximity to MTOW? Or is it good so long as you have the RWY space and tire speed?
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
Max Q
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:38 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Max Q wrote:


Our 767-224ER’s were certified for F1 take off’s and afaik were the highest gross weight civil version available



Very interesting. Were there restrictions involving proximity to MTOW? Or is it good so long as you have the RWY space and tire speed?



No restrictions other than normal considerations like OAT, runway length, tire speed etc


We were certified to use F1 as a take off setting (slats only) but I don’t remember ever actually using that setting


F15 was the norm and occasionally F5, the power to weight ratio was very favorable in our -224’s with the highest thrust option available we never had an issue with take off performance at MGTOW anywhere


F1 could have been useful departing say MEX to Europe but of course that was not a route we flew
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:51 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
N1120A wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

In my outfit on the 763 most of the time flaps 5, on rare occasion (short or slippery runway) flaps 15. The 763 is not certified for flaps 1 takeoff. Not many 762s around anymore, save a couple of dozen freighters.


Well, and a growing number of KC-767/KC-46s.


Sort of. The KC46 would more properly be 767-250s, what with being about 6ft longer and having a good deal of 764 avionics back-fitted...

I do doubt the USAF permits Flaps 1 for takeoff given the increase in weight w/o corresponding change in wing area. I would even suppose that Flaps 1 on the 762 is only for the Bogo model as the ER is nearly 80,000lbs heavier at MTOW.


The KC-46 isn’t certified for Flaps 1 takeoff. It’s certified for 5, 15, and 20.

The KC-46 is a 767-2C.

The KC-46 has almost no Avionics back-fitted from the 767-400. That’s a common misconception and I’m not sure where it came from. But it’s not factually correct.

The Display System architecture is similar to the 787. The GPWS/ TCAS/ Transponder system is similar to the A320/A330 and not common with other Boeing models. The Warning System is updated from the other 767s and the alerts have more in common with the 787 than other 767s. The Autoflight System is based off the 767-200, but has several additional features newer models have, but no other 767s have (GLS, IAN, and TO/GA to LNAV). It has just about no resemblance to the 767-400.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:30 pm

halrudy wrote:
Thank you for posting as years ago I too was on a US 767-200 AMS-PHL and was so close to hitting the flight attendant call-button when I saw no flaps on our takeoff roll. I was sitting behind the wing so couldnt tell if the slats were extended but based on the above would have to guess so.
Have to admit it made me wonder....


There are actually two layers of protection to prevent taking off with no Flaps on the 767 and most other Boeing models.

First, the Autothrottle won’t engage for takeoff if the Flaps are not in a valid takeoff setting. Second, even if they manually set takeoff thrust, then the CONFIG FLAPS warning will occur with the very loud and obnoxious warning siren in their ear.

Models with the Electronic Checklist (777, 787, 747-8) have a third layer of protection. The Takeoff Checklist won’t complete with the Flaps not detected to be in the proper position. The crew would an EICAS Caution alert ptior to takeoff on top of that.

I understand your concern, but an inadvertent takeoff with Flaps Up wouldn’t happen on the 767 or any other Boeing EICAS model.
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:53 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
N1120A wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

In my outfit on the 763 most of the time flaps 5, on rare occasion (short or slippery runway) flaps 15. The 763 is not certified for flaps 1 takeoff. Not many 762s around anymore, save a couple of dozen freighters.


Well, and a growing number of KC-767/KC-46s.


Sort of. The KC46 would more properly be 767-250s, what with being about 6ft longer and having a good deal of 764 avionics back-fitted...

I do doubt the USAF permits Flaps 1 for takeoff given the increase in weight w/o corresponding change in wing area. I would even suppose that Flaps 1 on the 762 is only for the Bogo model as the ER is nearly 80,000lbs heavier at MTOW.

Is the KC-46 actually stretched vis-a-vis the civilian 762, or is the added 6 feet in length just the boom? I know there's a lot of structure inherited from the 763ER/300F, but I've never seen a stretch mentioned.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: 767-200 No Flaps Takeoff

Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:59 am

GSOtoIND wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
N1120A wrote:

Well, and a growing number of KC-767/KC-46s.


Sort of. The KC46 would more properly be 767-250s, what with being about 6ft longer and having a good deal of 764 avionics back-fitted...

I do doubt the USAF permits Flaps 1 for takeoff given the increase in weight w/o corresponding change in wing area. I would even suppose that Flaps 1 on the 762 is only for the Bogo model as the ER is nearly 80,000lbs heavier at MTOW.

Is the KC-46 actually stretched vis-a-vis the civilian 762, or is the added 6 feet in length just the boom? I know there's a lot of structure inherited from the 763ER/300F, but I've never seen a stretch mentioned.


You may be right about the six feet just being the boom. It seems like more trouble than it is worth to stretch the fuselage for this application.

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