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Aseem747
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What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:34 am

The major differences between first generation 777 (200/200ER/300) and second generation (200LR/300ER/F) are greater engines, longer range, bigger wing span, raked wing tips and increased MTOW. But are there any more "minor" tweaks Boeing implemented on the second generation Boeing 777?
 
Noshow
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:39 am

The tanks are bigger as the updated wing structure has no more provisions for the optional folding mechanism that finally no one ordered. Plus there are a lot of aerodynamic tweaks.

All together some quite well done upgrade I have to say. Like the 737NG back then.
 
bigb
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:00 pm

Larger engines, raked wing tips are the major difference
 
flutter
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:53 pm

  • The -300ER has a hydraulically actuated tilting main gear bogey (Semi Levered Gear) which moves during rotation to increase tail clearance. I am not sure if the normal -300 has this.
  • Another difference is the AIMS (Aircraft Information Management Ssystem), an early version of true modular avionics, I believe the later generation 777 have AIMS2 which has some minor differences with AIMS1 (since you asked for "minor" ;-) ).
  • The -300ER incorporates a taxi camera system which requires an extra knob in the cockpit.
  • It is not just greater (larger) engines, but it is a single engine supplier in fact (GE90-11xB) while the 1st generation had 3 engine suppliers.
  • Random fun fact, the 777 display software had the option for foldable wingtips since day 1 and the symbology for it exists in each regular 777. It is just never used until now on the X.

source: I have worked on the development of 777 full flight simulators for many years.
 
Antarius
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:58 pm

flutter wrote:
Random fun fact, the 777 display software had the option for foldable wingtips since day 1 and the symbology for it exists in each regular 777. It is just never used until now on the X.


Interesting!

I remember getting a book as a kid that had the 777 shown with the wings foldable (Aircrafts of the World or something like that). Amazing that this was designed 20+ years ago.
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mxaxai
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:05 pm

A bunch of structural components were strengthened or otherwise saw minor modifications. I recall that approx. 30% of all parts were modified in some way (including the obvious changes to the wingtips and engines).

A semi-levered gear was introduced to improve take-off performance, as well as a new tail-strike protection system that proved beneficial for both take-off and landing performance.

Brakes and wheels were improved too.

The overhead 'crown' crew rest was developed for the 77W, though it was made avilable to the 77A/E/3 as well.
Likewise, the 77W introduced a computer upgrade and an electronic flight bag that were also put on the 77A/E/3.
 
United857
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:40 pm

Wanted to add a few extra details regarding the GE90 engines.

The GE90-110/115 used on the 200LR/300ER are very different from the original GE90-76/77/85/90/94 used on the 200/200ER/300. The most similar aspect of these two engines are perhaps just their name. First of all, the fan diameter increased from 123 to 128 inches. Second, the fan blades themselves went from a straight design to the modern swept design. Third, the compressor was redesigned, going from a 3 stage low pressure + 10 stage high pressure to a 4 stage low pressure + 9 stage high pressure combination. This was done to increase the core size and thus mass air flow to cope with the increased thrust demand. Essentially the last, smallest diameter, stage of the original 10 stage high pressure compressor was deleted, and compensated for by adding an additional stage to the low pressure booster. This last change was arguably the most significant, as the entire core of the engine downstream of the compressor (i.e. combustor and turbine), needed to be redesigned and enlarged. As a result, are relatively few interchangeable parts between the original GE90 and the later high thrust variants.
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:45 pm

Aseem747 wrote:
The major differences between first generation 777 (200/200ER/300) and second generation (200LR/300ER/F) are greater engines, longer range, bigger wing span, raked wing tips and increased MTOW. But are there any more "minor" tweaks Boeing implemented on the second generation Boeing 777?

Late in life (2015) the 77W got some upgrades that led to per-seat improvement of fuel burn by 5%:

In tandem with the development of the third generation Boeing 777X, Boeing worked with General Electric to offer a 2% improvement in fuel efficiency to in-production 777-300ER aircraft. General Electric improved the fan module and the high-pressure compressor stage-1 blisk in the GE-90-115 turbofan, as well as reduced clearances between the tips of the turbine blades and the shroud during cruise. These improvements, of which the latter is the most important and was derived from work to develop the 787, were stated by GE to lower fuel burn by 0.5%. Boeing's wing modifications were intended to deliver the remainder. Boeing stated that every 1% improvement in the 777-300ER's fuel burn translates into being able to fly the aircraft another 75 nmi (139 km; 86 mi) on the same load of fuel, or add ten passengers or 2,400 lb (1,100 kg) of cargo to a "load limited" flight.[132]

In March 2015, additional details of the improvement package were unveiled. The 777-300ER was to shed 1,800 lb (820 kg) by replacing the fuselage crown with tie rods and composite integration panels, similar to those used on the 787. The new flight control software was to eliminate the need for the tail skid by keeping the tail off the runway surface regardless of the extent to which pilots command the elevators. Boeing was also redesigning the inboard flap fairings to reduce drag by reducing pressure on the underside of the wing. The outboard raked wingtip was to have a divergent trailing edge, described as a "poor man's airfoil" by Boeing; this was originally developed for the McDonnell Douglas MD-12 project. Another change involved elevator trim bias. These changes were to increase fuel efficiency and allow airlines to add 14 additional seats to the airplane, increasing per seat fuel efficiency by 5%.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777
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Ziyulu
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:05 pm

The 2nd generation's seat belt lights have green arrows instead of red arrows.
 
flutter
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:48 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
The 2nd generation's seat belt lights have green arrows instead of red arrows.


Love the obscurity of that detail :-D May I ask how you discovered this? Line of work or passenger?
 
Ziyulu
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:43 pm

flutter wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
The 2nd generation's seat belt lights have green arrows instead of red arrows.


Love the obscurity of that detail :-D May I ask how you discovered this? Line of work or passenger?


From my observation as a passenger. If you pay attention, Airbus' no smoking and fasten seat belt signs are slightly different than Boeing's. Also, on the newer 777s, more of the signs are symbols instead of words. Like a green sign of a man exiting a door instead of the red "Exit" sign.
 
Aseem747
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:05 pm

United857 wrote:
Wanted to add a few extra details regarding the GE90 engines.

The GE90-110/115 used on the 200LR/300ER are very different from the original GE90-76/77/85/90/94 used on the 200/200ER/300. The most similar aspect of these two engines are perhaps just their name. First of all, the fan diameter increased from 123 to 128 inches. Second, the fan blades themselves went from a straight design to the modern swept design. Third, the compressor was redesigned, going from a 3 stage low pressure + 10 stage high pressure to a 4 stage low pressure + 9 stage high pressure combination. This was done to increase the core size and thus mass air flow to cope with the increased thrust demand. Essentially the last, smallest diameter, stage of the original 10 stage high pressure compressor was deleted, and compensated for by adding an additional stage to the low pressure booster. This last change was arguably the most significant, as the entire core of the engine downstream of the compressor (i.e. combustor and turbine), needed to be redesigned and enlarged. As a result, are relatively few interchangeable parts between the original GE90 and the later high thrust variants.

Nice. The weaker and older GE90 sounds much more powerful and better than the 110/115 too. The GE90-110/115 during take off just sounds like a slightly louder GENX takeoff with some slight growl but nothing compared to 76/77/85/90/94
 
unimproved
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:09 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
The 2nd generation's seat belt lights have green arrows instead of red arrows.

They're also LED instead of normal light bulbs.
 
LH707330
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:20 pm

flutter wrote:
[list]
[*]The -300ER incorporates a taxi camera system which requires an extra knob in the cockpit.
.

Along with this came the racing stripes on the top edge of the wing that align with the main gear track. Airbus solved this by superimposing a stripe on the screen with the 345/346.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:23 am

Antarius wrote:
flutter wrote:
Random fun fact, the 777 display software had the option for foldable wingtips since day 1 and the symbology for it exists in each regular 777. It is just never used until now on the X.


Interesting!

I remember getting a book as a kid that had the 777 shown with the wings foldable (Aircrafts of the World or something like that). Amazing that this was designed 20+ years ago.


The current folding wing tip design is a completely different design than that original 777-200 folding wing tip concept. So it wasn’t really designed 25 years ago.

The 777-9 has a totally different displays architecture than the legacy 777 models also. It uses DCA like the 787, not AIMS. So it’s not the same software.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:22 am

its still a question how effective those wingtips could be and how eager Boeing wanted it
 
Antarius
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:08 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
flutter wrote:
Random fun fact, the 777 display software had the option for foldable wingtips since day 1 and the symbology for it exists in each regular 777. It is just never used until now on the X.


Interesting!

I remember getting a book as a kid that had the 777 shown with the wings foldable (Aircrafts of the World or something like that). Amazing that this was designed 20+ years ago.


The current folding wing tip design is a completely different design than that original 777-200 folding wing tip concept. So it wasn’t really designed 25 years ago.

The 777-9 has a totally different displays architecture than the legacy 777 models also. It uses DCA like the 787, not AIMS. So it’s not the same software.


Got it. Thanks.

Still fascinating that the concept was in the works so long ago.
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Okcflyer
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Re: What are some lesser known differences of 1st generation Boeing 777 and 2nd generation of Boeing 777?

Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:01 pm

Antarius wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Interesting!

I remember getting a book as a kid that had the 777 shown with the wings foldable (Aircrafts of the World or something like that). Amazing that this was designed 20+ years ago.


The current folding wing tip design is a completely different design than that original 777-200 folding wing tip concept. So it wasn’t really designed 25 years ago.

The 777-9 has a totally different displays architecture than the legacy 777 models also. It uses DCA like the 787, not AIMS. So it’s not the same software.


Got it. Thanks.

Still fascinating that the concept was in the works so long ago.


The original concept is quite different from the 779 concept.

The original folded a significant portion of the wing including the aileron. It was so it could fit in the same gate size (code D) as the 767, MD11, DC10.

Because it included folding primary flight control surface (aileron) its was a far more complicated, heavier (beefy) design. It cut significantly into the performance (range decrease), increased fuel burn, would have been pretty expensive maintenance.

Ultimately, the feature only stood a chance for original 777 models doing short hops. For long haul (the new market space), the disadvantages far outweighed the cost of gate space. It was clear E gates would be the requirement going forward (B747/A340/330) for long haul, and the short haul markers were being taken over by the A320 and 737 classic. As the 747 was already E, there were significant number of gates available, and most airfields were designed to easily accommodate the 747 on taxiways. Therefore, the only advantage was for USA and Japan based airlines operating in short domestic hops. None bit on the idea.

The situation with the X is very different. Only the raked wingtip folds. It’s a far simpler/lighter mechanism as a result. It’s not only the gate requirement that’s a challenge for Code F, but it also limits the taxiways. In this case, the fuel burn gain of the longer wing surpasses with good margin even the weight of the folding system and extra structure, and the cost of the mechanism isn’t enough to justify all the complexities the A380 has with Code F.

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