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Trimeresurus
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Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:11 am

I especially see this on 777 flight decks. It seemingly has one integrated EFB below the tiller, and also an actual iPad that's mounted slightly below the outer window, each for both the captain and the first officer. Why is this?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:21 am

We have the same deal on the A350. Integrated EFB on the outer display units, and iPad EFB mounted in the window.

The iPads are with us all the time, so we can read the documentation before sign-on, use them at dispatch, etc. They also have necessary company apps that are not on the integrated EFB, for example, to work on the flight plan. This functionality replaces the traditional paper flight plan which would be annotated, then submitted post-flight for storage.

If you do have both, it is neat to be able to use the integrated EFB to display one thing, e.g. the approach chart, and the iPad EFB to display another thing, e.g. the taxi chart.

Of note is that on the A330 we only have the iPad EFB. And since we have that anyway, we might as well be able to mount it in the A350 as well.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:09 pm

Because iPads seem to be doing a better job than built-in, original EFB. Also, they are normally issued to pilots on all fleets, whereas the manufacturer EFB's are airplane specific - there is a different one on say A350 and a different one on the 787 and there's none on other airplanes.

Having said that, I really hate puting additional stuff on my window. I'm really looking forward to the time when manufacturers ditch their OEM EFB and provide an iPad socket instead, with some sort of connectivity to the FMS
 
mxaxai
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:17 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
Having said that, I really hate puting additional stuff on my window. I'm really looking forward to the time when manufacturers ditch their OEM EFB and provide an iPad socket instead, with some sort of connectivity to the FMS

Not every portable EFB is an iPad, though. Thales, for example, offers an EFB tablet with Windows 10.
https://onboard.thalesgroup.com/thales- ... -solution/

The EFB mount offered by Airbus for the A350 is additionally compatible with Microsoft Surface devices:
https://services.airbus.com/en/flight-o ... evice.html
 
gloom
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:50 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
I'm really looking forward to the time when manufacturers ditch their OEM EFB and provide an iPad socket instead, with some sort of connectivity to the FMS


I guess that never happens, for safety reasons. You don't want any device using specified port/socket to be able to plug in.

Cheers,
Adam
 
Agent
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:37 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
Because iPads seem to be doing a better job than built-in, original EFB. Also, they are normally issued to pilots on all fleets, whereas the manufacturer EFB's are airplane specific - there is a different one on say A350 and a different one on the 787 and there's none on other airplanes.

There is no OEM EFB on the A350 from my knowing. What is in the cradle depends on what the Airline is willing to spend. Basically the A350 outer display in efb mode is nothing more than a second screen to whatever is mounted in the cradle behind the pilot.
Lufthansa has a pretty neat solution for all their Aircraft regardless of the manufacturer. Its based on Microsoft Surface tablets and has no extra mounting on the A350. Its all on the outer screen.

thepinkmachine wrote:
Having said that, I really hate puting additional stuff on my window. I'm really looking forward to the time when manufacturers ditch their OEM EFB and provide an iPad socket instead, with some sort of connectivity to the FMS

On some solutions there is connectivity to the FMS, but only one direction. So you can have moving map and other useful stuff sent from A/C systems to the EFB.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:17 am

Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:18 am

thepinkmachine wrote:
Because iPads seem to be doing a better job than built-in, original EFB. Also, they are normally issued to pilots on all fleets, whereas the manufacturer EFB's are airplane specific - there is a different one on say A350 and a different one on the 787 and there's none on other airplanes.

Having said that, I really hate puting additional stuff on my window. I'm really looking forward to the time when manufacturers ditch their OEM EFB and provide an iPad socket instead, with some sort of connectivity to the FMS


Already happening on new bizjets like the G7500.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:09 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple


Delta and Skywest, both had them. So glad they dumped them.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:43 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple

Does American still use Samsung tablets?
 
gloom
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:14 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
thepinkmachine wrote:
some sort of connectivity to the FMS


Already happening on new bizjets like the G7500.


Hi Galaxyflyer,

I left only important part out of PinkMachine response.

Are these just EFBs, or really plugged in to FMS? Being able to plug "anything" having right socket to FMS seems like quite a breach of security to me.

Cheers,
Adam
 
thepinkmachine
Posts: 465
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:57 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple


I can only concur - Surface sucks... gimme an iPad anytime! (And no, I’m not an Apple fanboy) - the latter just works so much better than the former as an EFB...

The solutions I’m talking about are slowly emerging. As @Agent pointed out, A350 EFB is going in that direction, as you essentially plug in a laptop into a socket and use the outer screen, keyboard and KCCU (the mouse) as peripherals

Also, some company is reportedly offering an iPad socket instead of the original EFB in the 777/787, with some sort of connectivity with the FMS as well.

However, at the moment an iPad, or Surface hanging by the side window, with a cable entangled on the side console seems to be the industry norm... :banghead:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:49 pm

gloom wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
thepinkmachine wrote:
some sort of connectivity to the FMS


Already happening on new bizjets like the G7500.


Hi Galaxyflyer,

I left only important part out of PinkMachine response.

Are these just EFBs, or really plugged in to FMS? Being able to plug "anything" having right socket to FMS seems like quite a breach of security to me.

Cheers,
Adam


Just EFBs
 
tommy1808
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:46 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
However, at the moment an iPad, or Surface hanging by the side window, with a cable entangled on the side console seems to be the industry norm... :banghead:


Life cycles are not compatible with those of cockpits, volume is to low and both, Microsoft or apple would happily throw away the whole market just because they don't like to make some feature that is crucial in a cockpit.
In a rather short time those devices will go all wireless, not have any cables to plug in.
If airlines had any clue about buying IT, the would set their own mechanical/interface standards and just update the hardware internals every other year or so via tenders for companies that care about such niche markets.

Best regards
Thomas
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:48 pm

The Global 7500 has a neat folding holder that, i believe, is iPad compliant. Folds up into the side wall.
 
gloom
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
In a rather short time those devices will go all wireless, not have any cables to plug in.


I don't expect that. You'd need to build a security zone then, electromagnetically isolated.

I think it would be more like option to put a dedicated cradle for EFB. And an arm for that perhaps, so you can move it around to have a screen in a place where you need it.

But, we're going to wait and see. There are HUDs now making a way, there are enhanced reality technologies making their way, and no one knows what else might be around the corner.

Cheers,
Adam
 
Agent
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:19 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple


Delta and Skywest, both had them. So glad they dumped them.


What was wrong with the Surface with these airlines?
Overall iPads are a lot cheaper for the airline and lots of pilots want to have it. So its a winner for the beancounters. But Surface Tabs should be a lot more capable than iPads.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:39 am

Agent wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple


Delta and Skywest, both had them. So glad they dumped them.


What was wrong with the Surface with these airlines?
Overall iPads are a lot cheaper for the airline and lots of pilots want to have it. So its a winner for the beancounters. But Surface Tabs should be a lot more capable than iPads.


The iPad may be desirable, but it isn't like we can load just any app. They all need to be approved.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:53 am

gloom wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
In a rather short time those devices will go all wireless, not have any cables to plug in.


I don't expect that. You'd need to build a security zone then, electromagnetically isolated.


I may have phrased it badly. There won't be tablets with physical connectors, ending the use of consumer grade devices in cockpits for that very reason.

Best regards
Thomas
 
26point2
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:00 pm

Our 2009 Global came with CMC/Windows XP EFBs. Total boat anchors and pretty useless when compared to iPad. We upgraded the Global with IPad mounts with ship power and link to FMS data for moving map, etc. With onboard wifi we now each have a multi functional tablet with Jepp charts, ARINC, ForeFlight, real time graphic weather/SIGMETSs/radar, BBD and aircraft docs and reference material, company link via email, and streaming NETFLIX (OK, we don’t have NETFLIX but we could). iPad EFB has endless uses and is an excellent cockpit tool.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:27 pm

I’d forgotten those boat anchors!
 
bigb
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:55 am

TWA772LR wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Delta tried the Surface tablets, hated them, terrible service, went to Apple

Does American still use Samsung tablets?


AA pilots always used Apple, their FAs use Samsung..
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:43 pm

26point2 wrote:
Our 2009 Global came with CMC/Windows XP EFBs. Total boat anchors and pretty useless when compared to iPad. We upgraded the Global with IPad mounts with ship power and link to FMS data for moving map, etc. With onboard wifi we now each have a multi functional tablet with Jepp charts, ARINC, ForeFlight, real time graphic weather/SIGMETSs/radar, BBD and aircraft docs and reference material, company link via email, and streaming NETFLIX (OK, we don’t have NETFLIX but we could). iPad EFB has endless uses and is an excellent cockpit tool.


In the G6000, with the dual file severs, you can display four charts, two on the MFDs and two on the iPads. If you’re near blind, put the taxi chart on the DU4 and it’s on 15.7” screen.
 
Trimeresurus
Topic Author
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:36 pm

26point2 wrote:
Our 2009 Global came with CMC/Windows XP EFBs. Total boat anchors and pretty useless when compared to iPad. We upgraded the Global with IPad mounts with ship power and link to FMS data for moving map, etc. With onboard wifi we now each have a multi functional tablet with Jepp charts, ARINC, ForeFlight, real time graphic weather/SIGMETSs/radar, BBD and aircraft docs and reference material, company link via email, and streaming NETFLIX (OK, we don’t have NETFLIX but we could). iPad EFB has endless uses and is an excellent cockpit tool.


Do you still use METARs or ACARS if you have real time weather viewing and company email on board?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:26 am

Just real-time weather from the Internet. Just click on a website for Global pilots. METAR is a meteorological report, ACARS is a data link, not the same.
 
bigb
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:17 pm

Trimeresurus wrote:
26point2 wrote:
Our 2009 Global came with CMC/Windows XP EFBs. Total boat anchors and pretty useless when compared to iPad. We upgraded the Global with IPad mounts with ship power and link to FMS data for moving map, etc. With onboard wifi we now each have a multi functional tablet with Jepp charts, ARINC, ForeFlight, real time graphic weather/SIGMETSs/radar, BBD and aircraft docs and reference material, company link via email, and streaming NETFLIX (OK, we don’t have NETFLIX but we could). iPad EFB has endless uses and is an excellent cockpit tool.


Do you still use METARs or ACARS if you have real time weather viewing and company email on board?


ATIS/D-Atis/ASOS/AWOs weather is required to be accounted for performance data and is controlling for airfield minimums (approach and takeoff) as it is the official reported weather for the airport/runway by the control tower/facility. As long long as you have the most updated ATIS/D-Atis/ASOS/AWOs rather if it came from the EFB (D-ATIS), ACARS (D-ATIS), or have listened (ATIS, ASOS, AWOS) to it and have the weather minimums to be legal you are good to go.

METARs are used for small picture planning purposes.

Real time weather updates on the EFBs are mainly for planning, or tactical use for weather deviations. As the real-time weather on EFBs tends to have a lag, they are great for providing us the big picture weather allow us to develop a deviation plan farther out while on-board radar is good for closer in picture picture. Hopefully that answers your question.
 
N1120A
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:00 pm

Surface is a far superior device to an iPad. The issue is that EFB programs have been written for iPad longer and tend to have been developed more.
 
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zeke
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Re: Why do some airliners seemingly have two sets of EFBs?

Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:16 pm

gloom wrote:

I guess that never happens, for safety reasons. You don't want any device using specified port/socket to be able to plug in.

Cheers,
Adam


EFBs have different classes, they tend not to connect to the FMS, rather have something like a serial data in stream from the FMS (FMS does not care if the EFB is there or not), the EFB can use the data stream from the FMS often for position etc, however the data into the FMC is made by the pilots via the FMS.

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