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dfwjim1
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Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:25 pm

I am a frequent watcher of airline videos and noticed that on the takeoff roll 80 knots is called out when an aircraft reaches that speed. What is the reason for a call out at 80 knots?

Thanks for your responses!
 
AvgWhiteGuy
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:35 pm

It (mostly) is a reminder to the captain, who is solely responsible for initiating an abort, that they are now in the high-speed regime and generally speaking, it is safer to continue
the takeoff unless there is a fire, engine failure, windshear, or the captain thinks the aircraft won't fly. Different rules at different places for the speed (80-90 KIAS) or for the
criteria, but that is close. There is also the cross-checking factor, which both pilots check the other's airspeed. Just three months ago, the FO I worked with called it a little late,
"90 KIAS", which is perfectly fine, and I looked over at his speed to see it was 15 knots slower than mine, so the cross checking factor is relevant too.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:40 pm

Also, check airspeed indicators are agreeing, that many EICAS messages are suppressed until 400’ AFE.
 
VMCA787
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:55 pm

The primary reason is to make sure the airspeed indicators are working and accurate when compared to each other. I have never heard the reason involving the "high-speed regime". Boeing and IIRC, Airbus use 100 knots as a "technique" for their "load shedding philosophy" when it comes to a rejected takeoff.
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CRJockey
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:09 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
The primary reason is to make sure the airspeed indicators are working and accurate when compared to each other. I have never heard the reason involving the "high-speed regime". Boeing and IIRC, Airbus use 100 knots as a "technique" for their "load shedding philosophy" when it comes to a rejected takeoff.


Well, I generally agree with your view. My outfit still uses the 80kts call as boundary for the high speed regime which has consequences for the RTO briefing and procedure for short runways or within LVO.
 
Flow2706
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:14 pm

In addition to the speed indicator cross check and the reminder that the aircraft is in the high speed regime of the takeoff roll it is also an incapacitation check. If the callout is missing the PF will usually make the callout himself to see if the PM is just not paying attention or if he is either incapacitated or his airspeed indication is different. If there is no response to the second challenge, the takeoff would be aborted as it is assumed that the other pilot is incapacitated.
An other thing to notice is that the callout is not 80kts in all operations. On some smaller turboprops it might be at 60kts and Airbus SOP is to call out 100kts instead (some operators, especially in North America decided to deviate from the Airbus SOP to ensure consistency between the fleets, in that case the callout is at 80kts like on the Boeing).
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:29 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
... it is also an incapacitation check. If the callout is missing the PF will usually make the callout himself to see if the PM is just not paying attention or if he is either incapacitated or his airspeed indication is different. If there is no response to the second challenge, the takeoff would be aborted as it is assumed that the other pilot is incapacitated.


Incapacitation check? The dude or dudettes literally just started the takeoff roll, with numerous and often interrelated steps required between PF and PM, such as turning on the auto throttles. Pretty sure the 80 knot call a few seconds later isn't to make sure the other pilot is 'still there'.
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Flow2706
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:42 pm

LyleLanley wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
... it is also an incapacitation check. If the callout is missing the PF will usually make the callout himself to see if the PM is just not paying attention or if he is either incapacitated or his airspeed indication is different. If there is no response to the second challenge, the takeoff would be aborted as it is assumed that the other pilot is incapacitated.


Incapacitation check? The dude or dudettes literally just started the takeoff roll, with numerous and often interrelated steps required between PF and PM, such as turning on the auto throttles. Pretty sure the 80 knot call a few seconds later isn't to make sure the other pilot is 'still there'.

Incapacitation can be quite subtle. People can loose consciousness without an immediate indication. I have a friend (not in aviation) who has some medical condition that causes him to faint once in a while. Usually there are no prior indication he is just "out" for a couple of seconds and then recovers. Something like this could go unnoticed without this check. For reference, you can also check this: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Tak ... tion_Calls
The call at 80 knots is also used to check that the pilots have not become incapacitated during the take-off roll. If the PM does not make the call, or if the PF does not respond, it could be due to incapacitation and the take-off should be aborted.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:17 am

Summarising the above post.
- Check airspeed/instruments are working and agreeing.
- High speed rejected take-off as opposed to low speed. At high speed only reject for an engine failure/fire or other serious event. At high speed most warnings are inhibited, so basically reject for any warning that is not inhibited.
- Incapacition check.

LyleLanley wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
... it is also an incapacitation check. If the callout is missing the PF will usually make the callout himself to see if the PM is just not paying attention or if he is either incapacitated or his airspeed indication is different. If there is no response to the second challenge, the takeoff would be aborted as it is assumed that the other pilot is incapacitated.


Incapacitation check? The dude or dudettes literally just started the takeoff roll, with numerous and often interrelated steps required between PF and PM, such as turning on the auto throttles. Pretty sure the 80 knot call a few seconds later isn't to make sure the other pilot is 'still there'.


You'd be surprised how subtle incapacitation can be. It isn't necessarily a stroke or something. Could simply be fatigue catching up with a pilot at an inopportune moment, which can lead to momentary distraction, or even a microsleep.

I forgot the "positive climb" call as PM in a late-night sim once. Just slipped my mind even though I remember distinctly keeping an eye on both altimeter and radio altimeter to ensure we were climbing. I was so surprised when I heard "confirm positive climb?" from the left seat. How could I have forgotten the call?

Fatigue does weird things, even in situations where you are busy. It's one of the reasons we cross-check so often and so clearly.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Flow2706
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:45 am

Starlionblue wrote:
I forgot the "positive climb" call as PM in a late-night sim once. Just slipped my mind even though I remember distinctly keeping an eye on both altimeter and radio altimeter to ensure we were climbing. I was so surprised when I heard "confirm positive climb?" from the left seat. How could I have forgotten the call?

Fatigue does weird things, even in situations where you are busy. It's one of the reasons we cross-check so often and so clearly.

Those standard calls are important indeed, but it's important not to become complacent and just assume that the other pilot simply forgot/missed the callout. I remember one flight during a busy summer season. I was PF for the flight and after lift off I got no "positive climb" call from the PM. After waiting a couple of seconds and seeing the positive climb I ordered "gear up". Above FL100 we discussed the issue and the PM mentioned that his Rad Alt was stuck at 0 until we passed 1000ft and that is the reason why he delayed/skipped the positive climb callout. These callouts are quite useful to catch up intermittent system faults as well.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:54 am

Flow2706 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
I forgot the "positive climb" call as PM in a late-night sim once. Just slipped my mind even though I remember distinctly keeping an eye on both altimeter and radio altimeter to ensure we were climbing. I was so surprised when I heard "confirm positive climb?" from the left seat. How could I have forgotten the call?

Fatigue does weird things, even in situations where you are busy. It's one of the reasons we cross-check so often and so clearly.

Those standard calls are important indeed, but it's important not to become complacent and just assume that the other pilot simply forgot/missed the callout. I remember one flight during a busy summer season. I was PF for the flight and after lift off I got no "positive climb" call from the PM. After waiting a couple of seconds and seeing the positive climb I ordered "gear up". Above FL100 we discussed the issue and the PM mentioned that his Rad Alt was stuck at 0 until we passed 1000ft and that is the reason why he delayed/skipped the positive climb callout. These callouts are quite useful to catch up intermittent system faults as well.


Absolutely. Another important thing is to not just blurt out "checked" because it is the "automatic" response. Actually read and understand the meaning of the modes in front of you before you open your mouth. :)

I think it somewhat depends on the situation. If you don't hear a response to 100 knots (or 80 as the case may be) you want to take action promptly because you'll be at V1 in short order. On the other hand, if you don't immediately hear "positive climb" nothing bad is going to happen in the extra few seconds it takes to double-check with the PM.

Side note: Both pilots calling "checked" on approach after the robot voice says "five hundred" is also an incapacitation check.


LyleLanley wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
... it is also an incapacitation check. If the callout is missing the PF will usually make the callout himself to see if the PM is just not paying attention or if he is either incapacitated or his airspeed indication is different. If there is no response to the second challenge, the takeoff would be aborted as it is assumed that the other pilot is incapacitated.


Incapacitation check? The dude or dudettes literally just started the takeoff roll, with numerous and often interrelated steps required between PF and PM, such as turning on the auto throttles. Pretty sure the 80 knot call a few seconds later isn't to make sure the other pilot is 'still there'.


There aren't really any more steps on the runway before rotate, beyond the automatic V1 callout. In the Airbus case, auto-thrust is armed automatically when you set takeoff thrust. In the Boeing case, I believe autothrottles are engaged at the same time, this being at the start of the takeoff roll.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:01 am

Ok, I'll own that perhaps in some circles the 80 knot call is now technically an incapacitation check, but let's think about this, Flow: what's to stop a pilot with a similar condition as your friend (really sorry to hear about that, btw) from being fully alert at 80 knots to out of it by V1 or rotate? Better yet, '80 knots' is called by the pilot monitoring, and would any of you reject a takeoff because your PM didn't call '80 knots'? Or would the PM takeover and initiate a reject at instead of repeating "80 knots"? My guess is no but would definitely debrief afterwards, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why no incapacitation check before landing? I'd be more worried about someone dehydrated after a long flight or some other physiological problem, than before takeoff.

Historically, I also have difficulty believing that the pre-CRM airline (and KC-135) culture would have a specific callout on takeoff roll specifically to ensure the pilots have their heads in the game, rather than just assume they're professional aviators and will cage accordingly. Airspeed checks? Sounds plausible. Making sure power set by 80 knots for TOLD? Also sounds plausible. Lots of plausible reasons.

Sleuthing around, I did find this: "Historically , piston engines at idle rpm while taxiing or holding for takeoff would foul the spark plugs causing uneven firing and roughness when takeoff power is applied. Usually they would start operating normally after a short period at high power. If they didn’t you aborted the takeoff. At Lockheed we concluded that we could stop a P-2 abeam the Fire House but any distance beyond was critical for aborts. At this time the airspeed was usually about 80 knots. This became a useful number which is now industry wide. Since it did become a number it was elected to adapt it to the P-3, although a jet engine is not at all like a piston engine. What makes it important is that someone observes the power output and determines whether to continue or stop. “Call 80 knots for a power check” is sometimes mis-understood that you don’t heck the power until 80 knots. Check the power output with the initial application. If it’s bad at 60 knots, stop the aircraft. It won’t get any better at 80 knots like the P-2 engine might. A P-3 will stop on any Navy runway from an 80 knot speed. "
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Starlionblue
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:26 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Ok, I'll own that perhaps in some circles the 80 knot call is now technically an incapacitation check, but let's think about this, Flow: what's to stop a pilot with a similar condition as your friend (really sorry to hear about that, btw) from being fully alert at 80 knots to out of it by V1 or rotate? Better yet, '80 knots' is called by the pilot monitoring, and would any of you reject a takeoff because your PM didn't call '80 knots'? Or would the PM takeover and initiate a reject at instead of repeating "80 knots"? My guess is no but would definitely debrief afterwards, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. Why no incapacitation check before landing? I'd be more worried about someone dehydrated after a long flight or some other physiological problem, than before takeoff.

Historically, I also have difficulty believing that the pre-CRM airline (and KC-135) culture would have a specific callout on takeoff roll specifically to ensure the pilots have their heads in the game, rather than just assume they're professional aviators and will cage accordingly. Airspeed checks? Sounds plausible. Making sure power set by 80 knots for TOLD? Also sounds plausible. Lots of plausible reasons.

Sleuthing around, I did find this: "Historically , piston engines at idle rpm while taxiing or holding for takeoff would foul the spark plugs causing uneven firing and roughness when takeoff power is applied. Usually they would start operating normally after a short period at high power. If they didn’t you aborted the takeoff. At Lockheed we concluded that we could stop a P-2 abeam the Fire House but any distance beyond was critical for aborts. At this time the airspeed was usually about 80 knots. This became a useful number which is now industry wide. Since it did become a number it was elected to adapt it to the P-3, although a jet engine is not at all like a piston engine. What makes it important is that someone observes the power output and determines whether to continue or stop. “Call 80 knots for a power check” is sometimes mis-understood that you don’t heck the power until 80 knots. Check the power output with the initial application. If it’s bad at 60 knots, stop the aircraft. It won’t get any better at 80 knots like the P-2 engine might. A P-3 will stop on any Navy runway from an 80 knot speed. "


would any of you reject a takeoff because your PM didn't call '80 knots'? Or would the PM takeover and initiate a reject at instead of repeating "80 knots"?

That was literally the scenario in one of our recurrent training sims. And yes, you would reject. Because when I didn't hear the "one hundred knots" call, I glanced to my left and the guy was simulating having fainted. ;)

Why would you risk flying with a possibly incapacitated guy in the other seat if you can stop on the ground without too much drama? Even if the other guy hasn't fainted or something more serious, the fact that he didn't call "one hundred knots" says something about his level of alertness and readiness to go flying.

If you think the other guy has become incapacitated at 120 knots (though how would you know until you don't get the "rotate" call), you continue, because the risk calculus has changed. A high speed rejected takeoff is no picnic.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:42 am

Starlionblue wrote:
That was literally the scenario in one of our recurrent training sims. And yes, you would reject. Because when I didn't hear the "one hundred knots" call, I glanced to my left and the guy was simulating having fainted. ;)

Why would you risk flying with a possibly incapacitated guy in the other seat if you can stop on the ground without too much drama? Even if the other guy hasn't fainted or something more serious, the fact that he didn't call "one hundred knots" says something about his level of alertness and readiness to go flying.

If you think the other guy has become incapacitated at 120 knots (though how would you know until you don't get the "rotate" call), you continue, because the risk calculus has changed. A high speed rejected takeoff is no picnic.


Fair enough. The timing still seems incredibly unrealistic for the other pilot to need to faint, just after hacking the clocks and pushing the power up but before V1, for this scenario to play out, but c'est la vie.

Thanks for your response.
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:42 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Why no incapacitation check before landing?

Right above your post.
Starlionblue wrote:
Side note: Both pilots calling "checked" on approach after the robot voice says "five hundred" is also an incapacitation check.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:59 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
That was literally the scenario in one of our recurrent training sims. And yes, you would reject. Because when I didn't hear the "one hundred knots" call, I glanced to my left and the guy was simulating having fainted. ;)

Why would you risk flying with a possibly incapacitated guy in the other seat if you can stop on the ground without too much drama? Even if the other guy hasn't fainted or something more serious, the fact that he didn't call "one hundred knots" says something about his level of alertness and readiness to go flying.

If you think the other guy has become incapacitated at 120 knots (though how would you know until you don't get the "rotate" call), you continue, because the risk calculus has changed. A high speed rejected takeoff is no picnic.


Fair enough. The timing still seems incredibly unrealistic for the other pilot to need to faint, just after hacking the clocks and pushing the power up but before V1, for this scenario to play out, but c'est la vie.

Thanks for your response.


Sort of like V1 cuts, the history and likelihood of engine failure at V1 is close to nil but we spend huge amounts of training time on it. The history of incapacitation is mostly on landing or cruise, if not for the cases where the pilot is borderline ill on departure and condition worsens enroute—see DL taxiway landing at ATL or Speedbird go around and later prosecution of and suicide by the commander.
 
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LyleLanley
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 3:59 am

AirKevin wrote:
LyleLanley wrote:
Why no incapacitation check before landing?

Right above your post.
Starlionblue wrote:
Side note: Both pilots calling "checked" on approach after the robot voice says "five hundred" is also an incapacitation check.


Ah, no worries! :) He posted whilst I was still typing.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
...Speedbird go around and later prosecution of and suicide by the commander.


Thanks for the perspective. Can you elaborate a bit on the BA incident you mentioned? I don't believe I've heard of it. I do remember some incident of a BA pilot having a heart attack just before crashing or something to that effect, but my memory is hazy on the topic.
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AirKevin
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:30 am

LyleLanley wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
...Speedbird go around and later prosecution of and suicide by the commander.

Thanks for the perspective. Can you elaborate a bit on the BA incident you mentioned? I don't believe I've heard of it. I do remember some incident of a BA pilot having a heart attack just before crashing or something to that effect, but my memory is hazy on the topic.

Different incident than what you're thinking of, but here you go.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/147119
viewtopic.php?t=529157
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Starlionblue
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:08 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
That was literally the scenario in one of our recurrent training sims. And yes, you would reject. Because when I didn't hear the "one hundred knots" call, I glanced to my left and the guy was simulating having fainted. ;)

Why would you risk flying with a possibly incapacitated guy in the other seat if you can stop on the ground without too much drama? Even if the other guy hasn't fainted or something more serious, the fact that he didn't call "one hundred knots" says something about his level of alertness and readiness to go flying.

If you think the other guy has become incapacitated at 120 knots (though how would you know until you don't get the "rotate" call), you continue, because the risk calculus has changed. A high speed rejected takeoff is no picnic.


Fair enough. The timing still seems incredibly unrealistic for the other pilot to need to faint, just after hacking the clocks and pushing the power up but before V1, for this scenario to play out, but c'est la vie.

Thanks for your response.


As GalaxyFlyer says, it has to do with the outcome more than the chance of it happening. The chance of a pilot becoming incapacitated after 100 knots is very small, but the consequences of mishandling are great.

You don't train in the sim for incapacitation in the cruise because if it happens you won't need to react in too much of a hurry.

Of course you can't train for every unlikely scenario, but incapacitation, even on the take-off roll, is less unlikely than quite a bit of other stuff. ;)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:08 pm

Besides an awarness and speed check call : First called by the PF and answered by the PNF, in the non-Auto trottle age, it was also the speed were T/O thrust had to be set. (needles or tapes at the bugs), mostly checked and also confirmed by the F/E.
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LyleLanley
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:52 am

Thanks again for the responses, gents. Learning has been had!
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:31 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Also, check airspeed indicators are agreeing, that many EICAS messages are suppressed until 400’ AFE.


Advisory messages are inhibited from 80 knots to 400 feet (or 800 feet on some models). It’s AGL not AFE - uses Radio Altitude.

The Caution Aural and Master Caution Light are inhibited from 80 knots to 400 feet AGL for Caution alerts, but the message will still post on EICAS.

The Fire Bell and Master Warning Light are inhibited from V1 to 400 feet AGL for Fire Warnings, but the message will still show on EICAS.

For most other Warning alerts, the Siren and Master Warning Light are inhibited from V1 to 400 feet AGL. There is some variability, like CONFIG RUDDER on the 787 and 777-9 is inhibited above 30 knots. One of the others is inhibited at 80 knots; I think it’s CONFIG GEAR STEERING on the 777.
 
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:38 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Also, check airspeed indicators are agreeing, that many EICAS messages are suppressed until 400’ AFE.


Advisory messages are inhibited from 80 knots to 400 feet (or 800 feet on some models). It’s AGL not AFE - uses Radio Altitude.

The Caution Aural and Master Caution Light are inhibited from 80 knots to 400 feet AGL for Caution alerts, but the message will still post on EICAS.

The Fire Bell and Master Warning Light are inhibited from V1 to 400 feet AGL for Fire Warnings, but the message will still show on EICAS.

For most other Warning alerts, the Siren and Master Warning Light are inhibited from V1 to 400 feet AGL. There is some variability, like CONFIG RUDDER on the 787 and 777-9 is inhibited above 30 knots. One of the others is inhibited at 80 knots; I think it’s CONFIG GEAR STEERING on the 777.


Sounds pretty much identical to the Airbus logic.
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Woodreau
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:40 am

I believe 80kts is when Airbus transitions from flight phase 2 to flight phase 3.
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:46 am

Woodreau wrote:
I believe 80kts is when Airbus transitions from flight phase 2 to flight phase 3.


Not phase 1 to phase 2. It's the transition from phase 3 to phase 4. Phase 3 starts with "ENGINE TO PWR" and ends at 80kn. Phase 4 starts at 80kn and ends at liftoff.

Thus, take-off inhibits starts at 80kn. But the speed call is "one hundred knots".

Some warnings and cautions don't follow the phase scheme exactly. For example, Predictive Windshear stops at 100kn and resumes at 50ft after liftoff.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:07 am

LyleLanley wrote:
Incapacitation check? The dude or dudettes literally just started the takeoff roll, with numerous and often interrelated steps required between PF and PM, such as turning on the auto throttles. Pretty sure the 80 knot call a few seconds later isn't to make sure the other pilot is 'still there'.


You are entitled to think it silly, and I'm sure other people might too.
But the simple fact is, if it is stated in black and white in the FCOM as one of the reasons, you have two choices in the matter: Adhere to what the FCOM and SOP's state, or find another employer that has a different opinion on the matter.
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Crackshot
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:48 pm

In regards to incapacitation, an interesting case was the BEA Trident that stalled and crashed after takeoff from LHR in 1972. There was no CVR; but listening to the ATC tapes it was discovered that the Captain was responding to radio calls rather tersely, violating SOP's in the process. An autopsy later discovered that he was suffering from heart issues, and the discomfort may have been the cause of the radio calls and even the crash itself. And of course, there was the bizarre crash of a TAROM A310 after takeoff - the Captain died (probably of a heart attack), and it so happened that particular aircraft had a problem with the autothrottle that led to a severe bank imbalance, which was known and correctable - but the first officer was distracted by the captain and failed to notice until it was too late.
 
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:09 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
I believe 80kts is when Airbus transitions from flight phase 2 to flight phase 3.


Not phase 1 to phase 2. It's the transition from phase 3 to phase 4. Phase 3 starts with "ENGINE TO PWR" and ends at 80kn. Phase 4 starts at 80kn and ends at liftoff.

Thus, take-off inhibits starts at 80kn. But the speed call is "one hundred knots".

Some warnings and cautions don't follow the phase scheme exactly. For example, Predictive Windshear stops at 100kn and resumes at 50ft after liftoff.


Errr

so embarrassing!

Only 30,000 hours+.

80 Kts is when both hands go onto the control column (Boeing note!):
"Because you can't use the Tiller anymore".

:embarrassed2:

cheers
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:22 pm

brindabella wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
I believe 80kts is when Airbus transitions from flight phase 2 to flight phase 3.


Not phase 1 to phase 2. It's the transition from phase 3 to phase 4. Phase 3 starts with "ENGINE TO PWR" and ends at 80kn. Phase 4 starts at 80kn and ends at liftoff.

Thus, take-off inhibits starts at 80kn. But the speed call is "one hundred knots".

Some warnings and cautions don't follow the phase scheme exactly. For example, Predictive Windshear stops at 100kn and resumes at 50ft after liftoff.


Errr

so embarrassing!

Only 30,000 hours+.

80 Kts is when both hands go onto the control column (Boeing note!):
"Because you can't use the Tiller anymore".

:embarrassed2:

cheers

We NEVER put both hands on the yoke until V1 in the event of a rejected T/O.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:42 pm

brindabella wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
I believe 80kts is when Airbus transitions from flight phase 2 to flight phase 3.


Not phase 1 to phase 2. It's the transition from phase 3 to phase 4. Phase 3 starts with "ENGINE TO PWR" and ends at 80kn. Phase 4 starts at 80kn and ends at liftoff.

Thus, take-off inhibits starts at 80kn. But the speed call is "one hundred knots".

Some warnings and cautions don't follow the phase scheme exactly. For example, Predictive Windshear stops at 100kn and resumes at 50ft after liftoff.


Errr

so embarrassing!

Only 30,000 hours+.

80 Kts is when both hands go onto the control column (Boeing note!):
"Because you can't use the Tiller anymore".

:embarrassed2:

cheers


Would you really use the tiller at all after you're lined up? If nothing else, on the A330/A350 you hold the stick forward until around 80 knots, so you have no hand to hold the tiller.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:21 am

CosmicCruiser wrote:
brindabella wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

Not phase 1 to phase 2. It's the transition from phase 3 to phase 4. Phase 3 starts with "ENGINE TO PWR" and ends at 80kn. Phase 4 starts at 80kn and ends at liftoff.

Thus, take-off inhibits starts at 80kn. But the speed call is "one hundred knots".

Some warnings and cautions don't follow the phase scheme exactly. For example, Predictive Windshear stops at 100kn and resumes at 50ft after liftoff.


Errr

so embarrassing!

Only 30,000 hours+.

80 Kts is when both hands go onto the control column (Boeing note!):
"Because you can't use the Tiller anymore".

:embarrassed2:

cheers

We NEVER put both hands on the yoke until V1 in the event of a rejected T/O.


I wonder if he was joking. There is certainly no such Boeing note that recommends that.
 
bigb
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:10 am

80 knots is considered the start of the high speed regime of the takeoff roll. Some airline have specific criteria to reject in the high-speed regime vs rejecting for all abnormals during the low speed regime. That’s mainly what the 80 knots fall is for.
 
VMCA787
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:40 am

bigb wrote:
80 knots is considered the start of the high speed regime of the takeoff roll. Some airline have specific criteria to reject in the high-speed regime vs rejecting for all abnormals during the low speed regime. That’s mainly what the 80 knots fall is for.



Mr. Boeing would disagree with you. Their philosophy is 100 KIAS. But the 80 knot is still in there. Generally, it is a company specific change to the checklist.
Fly fast, live slow!
 
bigb
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:05 pm

VMCA787 wrote:
bigb wrote:
80 knots is considered the start of the high speed regime of the takeoff roll. Some airline have specific criteria to reject in the high-speed regime vs rejecting for all abnormals during the low speed regime. That’s mainly what the 80 knots fall is for.



Mr. Boeing would disagree with you. Their philosophy is 100 KIAS. But the 80 knot is still in there. Generally, it is a company specific change to the checklist.


Yes that is both Boeing and Airbus Philosophies, however 80 knots being the beginning of the high speed regime is being taught in quite a few 121 environments. At my old shop, the FOM had very items that a RTO should be rejected for. I do prefer my new shop RTO policy with RTO for any Caution, Warning, Engine Failure, and Unsafe A/C.
 
VMCA787
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Calling out 80 knots

Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:26 pm

At the 4 airlines, I have been at, both A and B operators, the philosophy was below 100 Knots, any Caution, Warning, performance issue or aircraft configuration issue you would reject the takeoff. While above 100 Knots, only a red light or an "unflyable" aircraft would be a reason to reject. Boeing's "load shedding" philosophy was a big factor in the philosophy in that the closer you got to V1 the fewer things you would reject for.
Fly fast, live slow!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:49 am

VMCA787 wrote:
bigb wrote:
80 knots is considered the start of the high speed regime of the takeoff roll. Some airline have specific criteria to reject in the high-speed regime vs rejecting for all abnormals during the low speed regime. That’s mainly what the 80 knots fall is for.



Mr. Boeing would disagree with you. Their philosophy is 100 KIAS. But the 80 knot is still in there. Generally, it is a company specific change to the checklist.


This is not correct. In all the Boeing manuals, 80 knots is used as the speed when the criteria in which you should RTO gets much smaller. The recommended Pilot Monitoring callout is 80 knots.

As I mentioned in a previous post, certain alerts or parts of alerts are inhibited above 80 knots.

Everything Boeing uses in its airplane design and documentation uses 80 knots as the beginning of the high speed threshold.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:55 am

VMCA787 wrote:
At the 4 airlines, I have been at, both A and B operators, the philosophy was below 100 Knots, any Caution, Warning, performance issue or aircraft configuration issue you would reject the takeoff. While above 100 Knots, only a red light or an "unflyable" aircraft would be a reason to reject. Boeing's "load shedding" philosophy was a big factor in the philosophy in that the closer you got to V1 the fewer things you would reject for.


I don’t know what you mean by “load shedding”. At Boeing, load shedding refers to electrical bus load shedding which has nothing to do with the RTO decision.

Boeing manuals advise that below 80 knots you reject for a long list of things. I won’t list them all.

Above 80 knots, and prior to V1, you reject for only four things:

1) Any fire or Fire Warning
2) Engine Failure
3) Predictive Windshear Warning, which itself is inhibited above 100 knots
4) If in the Captain’s judgement the airplane is not capable of safe flight.
 
VMCA787
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:28 am

BoeingGuy wrote:

I don’t know what you mean by “load shedding”. At Boeing, load shedding refers to electrical bus load shedding which has nothing to do with the RTO decision.

.


Really??? The analogy should be very easy to conceptualize. The faster you go the fewer things you would reject the takeoff for. In fact, there is a Boeing video about that very concept. It is somewhat dated and that is where the 100 Knot reference comes in. I will try to find it and get the date of the video.

Haven't found the video but here is a reference to 100 knots. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html
Fly fast, live slow!
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:28 am

VMCA787 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

I don’t know what you mean by “load shedding”. At Boeing, load shedding refers to electrical bus load shedding which has nothing to do with the RTO decision.

.


Really??? The analogy should be very easy to conceptualize. The faster you go the fewer things you would reject the takeoff for. In fact, there is a Boeing video about that very concept. It is somewhat dated and that is where the 100 Knot reference comes in. I will try to find it and get the date of the video.

Haven't found the video but here is a reference to 100 knots. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html


The term "load shedding" in aeronautics is commonly used to refer to "dropping" electrical consumers when there is not enough power to run them.

I've never heard it used in the rejected takeoff context.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
VMCA787
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Calling out 80 knots

Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:23 pm

Starlionblue wrote:

The term "load shedding" in aeronautics is commonly used to refer to "dropping" electrical consumers when there is not enough power to run them.

I've never heard it used in the rejected takeoff context.


After being in the military as a pilot and flying commercial for over 30 years, I am aware of what load-shedding is. The term was actually from a Boeing video produced probably over 20 years ago to illustrate the decision-making process. In the companies I have worked for, one had a big red tail and one was in a city-state in SE Asia, the term was used to describe the philosophy of rejecting for less and less things as you approach V1. Sometimes you have to think outside the box!!!!
Fly fast, live slow!

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