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Trimeresurus
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Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:07 pm

It's something that I have been wondering lately, that how does a type rating process works inside an airline. Suppose you have a 737NG captain in one of the legacies, say American or United, and he's going to upgrade to the 777. How long does this take? Does he first take classroom lessons, then sim-rides, then checkrides with another captain(albeit a veteran of the type) on the left seat, before he fully formally receives his type rating. How long does each of these processes take, and what would be his pay during that?(assuming he's still not flying the 737 while training for 777) Are there any extra training that has to be taken for going from short-medium haul to long haul? And isn't upgrading to a long haul aircraft from a short haul one a lengthy process, since it'll be a while before he acquires enough landings and takeoffs to pass the checkrides(probably 5-6 times less in the 777 than the 737 in a given set of time), or is it merely hour based and counting waypoints during transatlantic cruise also counts for it?

And finally, what about aircraft that are so unlike each other. For example, going from a MD-80 to an A350(I know no airline operates both in real life, but it's a fictional scenario).
 
N965UW
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:37 pm

Trimeresurus wrote:
For example, going from a MD-80 to an A350(I know no airline operates both in real life, but it's a fictional scenario).


Delta did until COVID hit. Maybe some of our DL guys can shed light on whether any of their MD-80/90 crews have moved to the A350.
You can always go around
 
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zeke
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm

Trimeresurus wrote:
It's something that I have been wondering lately, that how does a type rating process works inside an airline. Suppose you have a 737NG captain in one of the legacies, say American or United, and he's going to upgrade to the 777. How long does this take? Does he first take classroom lessons, then sim-rides, then checkrides with another captain(albeit a veteran of the type) on the left seat, before he fully formally receives his type rating. How long does each of these processes take, and what would be his pay during that?(assuming he's still not flying the 737 while training for 777) Are there any extra training that has to be taken for going from short-medium haul to long haul? And isn't upgrading to a long haul aircraft from a short haul one a lengthy process, since it'll be a while before he acquires enough landings and takeoffs to pass the checkrides(probably 5-6 times less in the 777 than the 737 in a given set of time), or is it merely hour based and counting waypoints during transatlantic cruise also counts for it?

And finally, what about aircraft that are so unlike each other. For example, going from a MD-80 to an A350(I know no airline operates both in real life, but it's a fictional scenario).


737 to 777 and MD80 to A350 are a similar process, they each require a full type rating.

Type rating training these days involves a combination of computer based training with some instructor lead training. From there to a procedural trainer which is like a simulator that doesn’t move. Then onto the simulator. On completion of the simulator training will be the check ride.

There will also be additional training for the emergency equipment and doors.

Practicality of going from 737 captain onto the 777 depends on individual airlines. Typically in the states a 737 captain probably wouldn’t have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. They would probably only hold a 777 FO slot.

When a pilot steps onto the aircraft typically these days they have a full type rating, this was gained in the simulator check ride.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:56 pm

Once the new aircraft bid is awarded to a pilot, they get a class date for the type course. Once on corse, they drop qualification on the old type. Classes are combinations of computer-based at home, classroom and sim (some CPT and some FFS), a checkride in the sim. Once typed, it is line trips with a Line Check Airman (LCA) for initial operating experience (IOE). US operators don’t do base training, first landing in the new type is on a line trip.

A friend of mine’s brother at AA went from Super 80 to B777, left seat in both. Sat on his seniority until he could hold senior trips in the T7; hadn’t been outside the US until first trip on the B777
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:37 pm

They will simply bid for their fleet, seat, and base. They don't do any kind of shadowing to check out what aircraft they may want to go to. At my airline most new hires are either driving the bus or the guppy. But there is the occasional new hire that gets a 756 bid.

The training consists of CBTs, then they come to the training center for the sim stuff, then hit the line for IOE. There are the guys that like to be a big fish in a small seniority pond and remain on the bus or 737 forever, and then there's the guys who try to move as fast as they can from the small to big planes. There are some fairly junior FOs on our 787s, but you're not getting in that left seat unless the gray-to-color ratio leans significantly gray.

And there's many kinds of specific training based on what exactly the pilot needs. But usually changing types is a month long course.
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eta unknown
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:06 pm

Pilots can move between different types. For example, many BA concorde pilots went to TriStars. I also remember Swissair had a problem with many senior
DC-10 pilots who kept failing the MD-11 training (traditional cockpit versus glass cockpit)- these guys were then transferred to the small 747 fleet to see out their retirement.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:15 pm

It all depends on the airline.

A 737 captain going to 777 captain is not upgrading - he is transitioning. upgrading is going from first officer to captain.

Pay depends on the pilot contract - but typically while in training, a 737 captain transitioning to 777 captain continues to receive 737 captain pay at minimum guarantee until he is qualified to operate as a 777 captain. - the details are in the pilot contract which differs from airline to airline.

at least in the US, a type rating is awarded when a pilot completes the type rating checkride with a designated examiner. FAA type ride requirements typically are 3 landings (and a whole bunch of other stuff from the 8900) the details will be airline specific that the FAA has signed off on with the airline training curriculum. He will be type-rated to fly the 777 but is not yet released to the line. The newly type rated pilot will fly with a check airman for operating experience for a certain time (again airline specific in accordance with the approved training program). the first time a pilot who has never flown a 777 before will be with revenue passengers on board. After completing the operating experience, the pilot is released to the line. There may or may not be an FAA observation ride with the FAA riding observation at some point during the operating experience - again depends on the training curriculum.
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DualQual
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:58 am

zeke wrote:
.

Practicality of going from 737 captain onto the 777 depends on individual airlines. Typically in the states a 737 captain probably wouldn’t have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. They would probably only hold a 777 FO slot.


I don’t know where you got this idea but it’s incorrect. Plenty of senior 737 Captains can hold 777 Captain. Sure a junior 737 Captain can’t but many 777 Captains come from narrow body Captain.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:24 am

zeke wrote:
Trimeresurus wrote:
It's something that I have been wondering lately, that how does a type rating process works inside an airline. Suppose you have a 737NG captain in one of the legacies, say American or United, and he's going to upgrade to the 777. How long does this take? Does he first take classroom lessons, then sim-rides, then checkrides with another captain(albeit a veteran of the type) on the left seat, before he fully formally receives his type rating. How long does each of these processes take, and what would be his pay during that?(assuming he's still not flying the 737 while training for 777) Are there any extra training that has to be taken for going from short-medium haul to long haul? And isn't upgrading to a long haul aircraft from a short haul one a lengthy process, since it'll be a while before he acquires enough landings and takeoffs to pass the checkrides(probably 5-6 times less in the 777 than the 737 in a given set of time), or is it merely hour based and counting waypoints during transatlantic cruise also counts for it?

And finally, what about aircraft that are so unlike each other. For example, going from a MD-80 to an A350(I know no airline operates both in real life, but it's a fictional scenario).


737 to 777 and MD80 to A350 are a similar process, they each require a full type rating.

Type rating training these days involves a combination of computer based training with some instructor lead training. From there to a procedural trainer which is like a simulator that doesn’t move. Then onto the simulator. On completion of the simulator training will be the check ride.

There will also be additional training for the emergency equipment and doors.

Practicality of going from 737 captain onto the 777 depends on individual airlines. Typically in the states a 737 captain probably wouldn’t have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. They would probably only hold a 777 FO slot.

When a pilot steps onto the aircraft typically these days they have a full type rating, this was gained in the simulator check ride.


There are plenty of pilots who have the seniority to hold a widebody seat but would rather stay domestic. Some actually enjoy flying and would rather get more than a couple landings a month. Some widebody pilots even have to go to the sim occasionally to get the required number of landings to stay current. I believe AA had a few captains retire with the MD-80. It was the last of its kind. If you are living within your means you don't have to chase equipment and can fly what you like.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
zeke wrote:
Trimeresurus wrote:
It's something that I have been wondering lately, that how does a type rating process works inside an airline. Suppose you have a 737NG captain in one of the legacies, say American or United, and he's going to upgrade to the 777. How long does this take? Does he first take classroom lessons, then sim-rides, then checkrides with another captain(albeit a veteran of the type) on the left seat, before he fully formally receives his type rating. How long does each of these processes take, and what would be his pay during that?(assuming he's still not flying the 737 while training for 777) Are there any extra training that has to be taken for going from short-medium haul to long haul? And isn't upgrading to a long haul aircraft from a short haul one a lengthy process, since it'll be a while before he acquires enough landings and takeoffs to pass the checkrides(probably 5-6 times less in the 777 than the 737 in a given set of time), or is it merely hour based and counting waypoints during transatlantic cruise also counts for it?

And finally, what about aircraft that are so unlike each other. For example, going from a MD-80 to an A350(I know no airline operates both in real life, but it's a fictional scenario).


737 to 777 and MD80 to A350 are a similar process, they each require a full type rating.

Type rating training these days involves a combination of computer based training with some instructor lead training. From there to a procedural trainer which is like a simulator that doesn’t move. Then onto the simulator. On completion of the simulator training will be the check ride.

There will also be additional training for the emergency equipment and doors.

Practicality of going from 737 captain onto the 777 depends on individual airlines. Typically in the states a 737 captain probably wouldn’t have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. They would probably only hold a 777 FO slot.

When a pilot steps onto the aircraft typically these days they have a full type rating, this was gained in the simulator check ride.


There are plenty of pilots who have the seniority to hold a widebody seat but would rather stay domestic. Some actually enjoy flying and would rather get more than a couple landings a month. Some widebody pilots even have to go to the sim occasionally to get the required number of landings to stay current. I believe AA had a few captains retire with the MD-80. It was the last of its kind. If you are living within your means you don't have to chase equipment and can fly what you like.


And, there are plenty of wide-body FOs that could hold decent lines in narrow body CA seats, but like flying one or two trips a month, “dozing for dollars”. If you commute, life is easier, if you bid reserve, go months without flying. It’s all about what you like. I met one at DL in Dubai who wouldn’t bid three-crew trips, “too much work”.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

A friend of mine’s brother at AA went from Super 80 to B777, left seat in both. Sat on his seniority until he could hold senior trips in the T7; hadn’t been outside the US until first trip on the B777


And that is why we hear pilots from the USA on the freq. in Europe and elswhere that don’t seem to have a clue of where they are going. Never been around the block. Scary if it is the captain...
Last edited by arcticcruiser on Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:16 pm

Delete
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:42 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

A friend of mine’s brother at AA went from Super 80 to B777, left seat in both. Sat on his seniority until he could hold senior trips in the T7; hadn’t been outside the US until first trip on the B777


And that is why we hear pilots from the USA on the freq. in Europe and elswhere that don’t seem to have a clue of where they are going. Never been around the block. Scary if it is the captain...


He would have certainly had some trips int'l in IOE. He would not make his fist revenue flight for the first flight. Also remember that you fly to the US and you can go for 2,500 miles east-west and have the same rules. You go to Europe and every country has its own set of rules. This is a little overwhelming and no matter how much training you have the first few times will always present new challenges.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:12 am

CosmicCruiser wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

A friend of mine’s brother at AA went from Super 80 to B777, left seat in both. Sat on his seniority until he could hold senior trips in the T7; hadn’t been outside the US until first trip on the B777


And that is why we hear pilots from the USA on the freq. in Europe and elswhere that don’t seem to have a clue of where they are going. Never been around the block. Scary if it is the captain...


He would have certainly had some trips int'l in IOE. He would not make his fist revenue flight for the first flight. Also remember that you fly to the US and you can go for 2,500 miles east-west and have the same rules. You go to Europe and every country has its own set of rules. This is a little overwhelming and no matter how much training you have the first few times will always present new challenges.


Not to mention 23 STARs into LFPG versus 6 into KJFK and those 23 STARs probably have another 23 permutations depending on the runway in use. Then, dozens of different accents, 8.33 radio spacing because they divided up the airspace into tiny slices, a slot time procedure that is really unintelligible (really, they have times going in and out of de-icing). Flying in Europe is needlessly complicated, but it keeps you on your toes.

I did it for 30 years, always loved an hour wait for release, get airborne, cleared direct across a country that was slot controlled or how France would hand out amended levels like popcorn—for or five in one country.
 
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zeke
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:58 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
There are plenty of pilots who have the seniority to hold a widebody seat but would rather stay domestic.


I’m sure there is, however my point still remains. If you only have the seniority to just get a 737 captain slot you will not have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. The bottom of the 777 captain slots are way above the 737.

Pay is based upon type, bigger the aircraft more pay, 777 earns more than 737. Available on APC

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... n_airlines

777 pilots would get more days off a month than 737 as sector times are greater on the 777.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
VMCA787
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:37 am

zeke wrote:

777 pilots would get more days off a month than 737 as sector times are greater on the 777.


Just to play devil's advocate..... But, the 737 captain, while making less/month could have the opportunity to be home every night. My experience is after a certain point in a pilot's career, lifestyle plays a much more important part in those types of decisions. I have several acquaintances who have stayed on narrow-body aircraft as a Captain for lifestyle. Seniority wise, they would have been able to hold a wide-body left seat years ago. But, for their lifestyle, they prefer to stay where they are. Several friends who fly domestic are able to work 14-15 days/month and be home every night. It just depends.
Fly fast, live slow!
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:46 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
zeke wrote:
Trimeresurus wrote:
It's something that I have been wondering lately, that how does a type rating process works inside an airline. Suppose you have a 737NG captain in one of the legacies, say American or United, and he's going to upgrade to the 777. How long does this take? Does he first take classroom lessons, then sim-rides, then checkrides with another captain(albeit a veteran of the type) on the left seat, before he fully formally receives his type rating. How long does each of these processes take, and what would be his pay during that?(assuming he's still not flying the 737 while training for 777) Are there any extra training that has to be taken for going from short-medium haul to long haul? And isn't upgrading to a long haul aircraft from a short haul one a lengthy process, since it'll be a while before he acquires enough landings and takeoffs to pass the checkrides(probably 5-6 times less in the 777 than the 737 in a given set of time), or is it merely hour based and counting waypoints during transatlantic cruise also counts for it?

And finally, what about aircraft that are so unlike each other. For example, going from a MD-80 to an A350(I know no airline operates both in real life, but it's a fictional scenario).


737 to 777 and MD80 to A350 are a similar process, they each require a full type rating.

Type rating training these days involves a combination of computer based training with some instructor lead training. From there to a procedural trainer which is like a simulator that doesn’t move. Then onto the simulator. On completion of the simulator training will be the check ride.

There will also be additional training for the emergency equipment and doors.

Practicality of going from 737 captain onto the 777 depends on individual airlines. Typically in the states a 737 captain probably wouldn’t have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. They would probably only hold a 777 FO slot.

When a pilot steps onto the aircraft typically these days they have a full type rating, this was gained in the simulator check ride.


There are plenty of pilots who have the seniority to hold a widebody seat but would rather stay domestic. Some actually enjoy flying and would rather get more than a couple landings a month. Some widebody pilots even have to go to the sim occasionally to get the required number of landings to stay current. I believe AA had a few captains retire with the MD-80. It was the last of its kind. If you are living within your means you don't have to chase equipment and can fly what you like.



Having to go to the sim for landings is generally considered a good thing. It usually means you haven't been flying very much, and among the people I work with thats the goal.

For most of the pilots at the legacy airlines in the U.S. who are within 15 years or so of retirement, "living within your means" is but a small part of the puzzle. Several thousand were furloughed for a decade, some were furloughed twice, and a few three times. Most of us have had what I call the "full airline pilot experience". A bankruptcy or two, with the resulting loss of pay, benefits and retirement. A merger (or two or three) with the resulting loss of seniority, age 65. For many, it was 20 years before we could hold wide body fo, or narrow body ca. Now COVID.

I know several pilots who really have no desire to fly as a wide body captain, but who bid it, and now commute to reserve, only for the pay raise. Hoping they can shore up their savings to insure they won't have to work after mandatory retirement comes around.
 
bigb
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:24 am

zeke wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
There are plenty of pilots who have the seniority to hold a widebody seat but would rather stay domestic.


I’m sure there is, however my point still remains. If you only have the seniority to just get a 737 captain slot you will not have the seniority to hold a 777 captain slot. The bottom of the 777 captain slots are way above the 737.

Pay is based upon type, bigger the aircraft more pay, 777 earns more than 737. Available on APC

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... n_airlines

777 pilots would get more days off a month than 737 as sector times are greater on the 777.


You will be quite surprised in some instances where a Widebody CA slot can go junior at a mainline carrier (there is a good reason for it too). It’s not really cut and dry as you say Zeke. Your point would be correct in the regional world in the US where CA slots are highly sought after fo be able to log T-PIC to have a chance to move on to the majors. But there are instances cases where a widebody CA slot isn’t necessary senior.
 
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zeke
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:11 pm

bigb wrote:
You will be quite surprised in some instances where a Widebody CA slot can go junior at a mainline carrier (there is a good reason for it too). It’s not really cut and dry as you say Zeke. Your point would be correct in the regional world in the US where CA slots are highly sought after fo be able to log T-PIC to have a chance to move on to the majors. But there are instances cases where a widebody CA slot isn’t necessary senior.


I think I get what you are saying, some domiciles are more popular than others, and you can hold a wide body command in an unpopular place before folding a narrow body command at a popular place. However if looking within the same domicile within that domicile the wide body command would require a higher seniority.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
bigb
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Re: Upgrading to a new type in the same airline

Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:52 pm

zeke wrote:
bigb wrote:
You will be quite surprised in some instances where a Widebody CA slot can go junior at a mainline carrier (there is a good reason for it too). It’s not really cut and dry as you say Zeke. Your point would be correct in the regional world in the US where CA slots are highly sought after fo be able to log T-PIC to have a chance to move on to the majors. But there are instances cases where a widebody CA slot isn’t necessary senior.


I think I get what you are saying, some domiciles are more popular than others, and you can hold a wide body command in an unpopular place before folding a narrow body command at a popular place. However if looking within the same domicile within that domicile the wide body command would require a higher seniority.


Exactly.

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