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Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3095
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:11 am

Runway 27 at Lucknow airport was only certified for CAT I & CATII approaches until 2016. Now we know why they decided to invest in a CATIII approach as well.

All those METAR reports clearly illustrate sub-CATII weather (RVR less than 350m) almost every single morning this month!

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 885858.cms

At my airport, in the 1,800 days or so I`ve been working here, we've seen that kind of weather only a handful of times !
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
FligtReporter
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:07 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Runway 27 at Lucknow airport was only certified for CAT I & CATII approaches until 2016. Now we know why they decided to invest in a CATIII approach as well.

All those METAR reports clearly illustrate sub-CATII weather (RVR less than 350m) almost every single morning this month!

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 885858.cms

At my airport, in the 1,800 days or so I`ve been working here, we've seen that kind of weather only a handful of times !


Yes Mr Flyzone...and prior to CAT IIIB we use to have a lot of cancellations and delays due to fog ,however,since then the only delays and cancellations that happen due to weather conditions are when the airlines either dont have the trained pilots or their Aircrafts are'nt equipped with CAT III system.

This winter season itself my home airport saw NO CANCELLATION DUE TO FOG..All thanks to CAT IIIB.

My airport was one of the second airport after DEL to get the CAT IIIB ILS in India and I feel proud and happy about it that now I have experienced one of CAT IIIB landings myself more so at my own airport.

Here is the list of other Airports in India that have this gift ( By Sequence of Installation )

1.Delhi DEL
2.Lucknow LKO
3.Jaipur JAI
4.Amritsar ATQ
5.Kolkata CCU
and latest one that got the ILS CAT IIIB is
6.Bangalore BLR

Oh btw did you see I got the exact weather report of the time of my approach and landing and the RVR during my landing was 100 Meters means the pilots would have seen the Runway at 30-50 FT I assume.
 
FligtReporter
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:25 pm

Finally my CAT IIIB landing video is on my Channel with full weather details !!

I'm inexplicably grateful to all of the amazing pilots and people in the aviation community who helped me learn so much about CAT IIIB.

Thank you so so much everyone !!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4317
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:23 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Even though your pilot stopped on the runway, it's not that big of a deal. During CATII and III operations, spacing on final between aircraft is increased significantly, in order to protect ILS critical and sensitive areas for each landing traffic. Previous lander has to clear the runway and the ILS critical area before the subsequent lander is 4NM final. This is standard around the world.


I have to disagree with your statement above. Check out Para 3-7 from the FAA Order 7110.65.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_7.html

The preceding arrival exiting the runway is allowed to pass through the area while landing or exiting the runway, no mention of the next arrival having to be 4 NM out.

While some controllers would add a bit more than normal, most did not increase separation significantly in low IFR conditions where I worked approach control before retiring eight years ago, though I am speaking of the U.S. only and not all airports or ATC facilities operate exactly the same.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
FligtReporter
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:20 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
Even though your pilot stopped on the runway, it's not that big of a deal. During CATII and III operations, spacing on final between aircraft is increased significantly, in order to protect ILS critical and sensitive areas for each landing traffic. Previous lander has to clear the runway and the ILS critical area before the subsequent lander is 4NM final. This is standard around the world.


I have to disagree with your statement above. Check out Para 3-7 from the FAA Order 7110.65.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_7.html

The preceding arrival exiting the runway is allowed to pass through the area while landing or exiting the runway, no mention of the next arrival having to be 4 NM out.

While some controllers would add a bit more than normal, most did not increase separation significantly in low IFR conditions where I worked approach control before retiring eight years ago, though I am speaking of the U.S. only and not all airports or ATC facilities operate exactly the same.


Hello Mr.Iah I was wondering what are the weather conditions like at IAH during winter season ? Does it get as foggy as it gets here ..I mean here at my home airport LKO its CAT IIIB conditions almost every morning from DEC to JAN and early FEB..I don't know what ILS type does IAH have but it seems like a very big airport so I'm assuming it must have CAT III type for sure..but you would know it better I reckon.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:13 pm

Hi FligtReporter.

Winter weather can bring some very foggy morning though it usually burns off by noon. However, in the last oh week or two we've had just some drizzly foggy days where visibility has been down below a mile almost all day long. Most of the foggy mornings are found in the spring or fall associated after rain and a warm front hangs around.

IAH has three east/west parallel runways that have the runway centerlines separated by 5,000' and 5,760' which allows from simultaneous independent approaches, dual & triple operations. The east/west runways have ILS CAT I,II and III all with RVR of 600' minima as well as RNAV (GPS), RNAV (RNP) and GLS approaches which are also capable of simultaneous ops, but their minimums are higher than the 600' RVR.

There are also two southeast/northwest runways mainly used as departure runways unless weather dictates otherwise although they do have ILS CAT I minimums, 15R has 1,800' RVR while 33R has 2,400' RVR.

Hope that answers your question.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:30 pm

Hardly anywhere gets as foggy as northern India! The smoke and haze just make it worse than mere fog.
 
FligtReporter
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:33 am

IAHFLYR wrote:
Hi FligtReporter.

Winter weather can bring some very foggy morning though it usually burns off by noon. However, in the last oh week or two we've had just some drizzly foggy days where visibility has been down below a mile almost all day long. Most of the foggy mornings are found in the spring or fall associated after rain and a warm front hangs around.

IAH has three east/west parallel runways that have the runway centerlines separated by 5,000' and 5,760' which allows from simultaneous independent approaches, dual & triple operations. The east/west runways have ILS CAT I,II and III all with RVR of 600' minima as well as RNAV (GPS), RNAV (RNP) and GLS approaches which are also capable of simultaneous ops, but their minimums are higher than the 600' RVR.

There are also two southeast/northwest runways mainly used as departure runways unless weather dictates otherwise although they do have ILS CAT I minimums, 15R has 1,800' RVR while 33R has 2,400' RVR.

Hope that answers your question.


Thank you for your response, Mr IAH...I assume IAH has CAT IIIA and given the visibility conditions in USA are not as adverse as in North India during winters I reckon it would be a waste of money to have a CAT IIIB installed anyways because I believe it costs millions of dollars to install it and then to maintain it another costly affair.I just got to know a few posts ago that Canada doesn't even have a single airport with CAT IIIB and Initially I was astonished because I have been to the YYZ and with all the snow storm and everything I had experienced there,I thought it must have CATIIIC let alone IIIB but I guess they only have the IIIA.

Probably the reason why whole of North American Continent doesnt require as many CAT IIIB airports as North India because it has clear visibility conditions due to US,CAN and MEX not polluting air too much and that helps keep the air clean and doesn't add to the thickness of fog during winters.

I was wondering how many airports in total in the USA,have CATIIIB though ?

Thanks again Mr.IAH
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:41 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Hardly anywhere gets as foggy as northern India! The smoke and haze just make it worse than mere fog.


Hey Mr Galaxy,

Yes North India is foggy beyond foggytivity especially during Winters because the haze and pollution makes it all worse and let alone the winters even in summers its a mess.I feel blessed anytime I get to see blue skies and broken clouds and such times are during Monsoon season which is from JULY - SEP.

Rest of the months I just pray I get food visibility to plane spott.

BTW what is your home airport Mr Galaxy and what are the weather conditions there ?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:35 am

KBDL, Northeastern US, it’s -12c with 25cm of snow on the ground. I’ve been to India, maybe 6 times. Incredible country. I arrived in DEL from Tenerife, Canary Is, long leg in a Global Express, thick fog, maybe 500m, landed with the runway in sight at 6 miles using HUD with Enhanced Vision (infrared). Cold, it was, too. Another day, crystal clear over Mumbai and the Ghats.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:21 am

IAHFLYR wrote:

I have to disagree with your statement above. Check out Para 3-7 from the FAA Order 7110.65.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_7.html

The preceding arrival exiting the runway is allowed to pass through the area while landing or exiting the runway, no mention of the next arrival having to be 4 NM out.

While some controllers would add a bit more than normal, most did not increase separation significantly in low IFR conditions where I worked approach control before retiring eight years ago, though I am speaking of the U.S. only and not all airports or ATC facilities operate exactly the same.


There is no mention of 4NM in your document, but there is mention of outer marker (OM), which normally identifies the FAF, and which is normally around 4 to 7 NM final.

3.7.5 PRECISION APPROACH CRITICAL AREA

ILS critical area dimensions are described in FAA Order 6750.16, Siting Criteria for Instrument Landing Systems. Aircraft and vehicle access to the ILS critical area must be controlled to ensure the integrity of ILS course signals whenever the official weather observation is a ceiling of less than 800 feet or visibility less than 2 miles. Do not authorize vehicles/aircraft to operate in or over the critical area, except as specified in subpara a1, whenever an arriving aircraft is inside the ILS outer marker (OM) or the fix used in lieu of the OM unless the arriving aircraft has reported the runway in sight or is circling to land on another runway.


So you see, even for the FAA, the standard is around 4NM. Now obviously, for the FAA, there does seem to be an exception to the rule, but the standard rule is still a sterile critical area when the subsequent lander gets to the OM / FAF / ~4NM final.

Here in Canada, our MATS (Manual of Air Traffic Services) clearly states that for CATII or III approaches, the previous lander has to be clear of the runway and the ILS critical area before the next lander is 4NM final. No exceptions. Same thing for a departure before the arrival. The departure has to clear the localizer antenna by the time the arrival is 4NM final. If these rules aren't met, the arrival doing CATII or III goes missed. no ifs, ands or buts !

In India, specifically at Lucknow, they are even more strict. They won't even clear the subsequent arrival for the approach until the previous lander is down and clear. Page 24.

https://aim-india.aai.aero/eaip-v2//25- ... -en-GB.pdf

9.3 Protection of ILS Critical & Sensitive Areas:
9.3.1 ATCOs shall comply with the following guidelines for protection of Localizer Critical/Sensitive area during CAT II/IIIA/
IIIB Operations:
9.3.2 Approach Control/Aerodrome Control Tower shall ensure that a succeeding arriving aircraft is cleared for CAT II or
CAT IIIA or CAT IIIB ILS approach only after the:
a. Preceding arriving aircraft has landed and vacated the runway and is clear of localizer critical and sensitive Area or has
carried out the missed approach procedure and has passed over localizer antenna.
b. Preceding departing aircraft is airborne and has passed over the localizer antenna


So basically, ~4NM / FAF / OM seems to be the standard, where some countries have exceptions to go below the rule (FAA), and other countries go above and beyond the rule (India).
Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
FligtReporter
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:26 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
KBDL, Northeastern US, it’s -12c with 25cm of snow on the ground. I’ve been to India, maybe 6 times. Incredible country. I arrived in DEL from Tenerife, Canary Is, long leg in a Global Express, thick fog, maybe 500m, landed with the runway in sight at 6 miles using HUD with Enhanced Vision (infrared). Cold, it was, too. Another day, crystal clear over Mumbai and the Ghats.


Nice to know Mr Galaxy BTW.Yeah DEL is always foggy or smogy its a sheer blessing when its clear there.BOM doesn't get foggy or smogy as much and probably thats why they are good with CAT II and then the further south you go its all clear Except in BLR and HYD these two could get a little foggy at times but nothing compared to the the fog in the north.

About Cold in North India,my city LKO and DEL,JAI or ATQ etc get extremely cold during winters and partially due to the presense of himalayan ranges just a few hundred KMs our north and the chilly winds which lash the plains exacerbate the coldness of it all. For me anything below 10°C is cold and below 5°C is very cold and here in LKO we experience 0°C to -1°C at least for a few days during the winter season which is freezing. The weird thing is here we get really hot temperatures like 47°C to 48°C and then in winters we experience Sub Zeros as well..though its messy but I kinda like this contrast for I get to experience both the torrid and the frigid right at home :lol:
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:47 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:

I have to disagree with your statement above. Check out Para 3-7 from the FAA Order 7110.65.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... ion_7.html

The preceding arrival exiting the runway is allowed to pass through the area while landing or exiting the runway, no mention of the next arrival having to be 4 NM out.

While some controllers would add a bit more than normal, most did not increase separation significantly in low IFR conditions where I worked approach control before retiring eight years ago, though I am speaking of the U.S. only and not all airports or ATC facilities operate exactly the same.


There is no mention of 4NM in your document, but there is mention of outer marker (OM), which normally identifies the FAF, and which is normally around 4 to 7 NM final.

3.7.5 PRECISION APPROACH CRITICAL AREA

ILS critical area dimensions are described in FAA Order 6750.16, Siting Criteria for Instrument Landing Systems. Aircraft and vehicle access to the ILS critical area must be controlled to ensure the integrity of ILS course signals whenever the official weather observation is a ceiling of less than 800 feet or visibility less than 2 miles. Do not authorize vehicles/aircraft to operate in or over the critical area, except as specified in subpara a1, whenever an arriving aircraft is inside the ILS outer marker (OM) or the fix used in lieu of the OM unless the arriving aircraft has reported the runway in sight or is circling to land on another runway.


So you see, even for the FAA, the standard is around 4NM. Now obviously, for the FAA, there does seem to be an exception to the rule, but the standard rule is still a sterile critical area when the subsequent lander gets to the OM / FAF / ~4NM final.

Here in Canada, our MATS (Manual of Air Traffic Services) clearly states that for CATII or III approaches, the previous lander has to be clear of the runway and the ILS critical area before the next lander is 4NM final. No exceptions. Same thing for a departure before the arrival. The departure has to clear the localizer antenna by the time the arrival is 4NM final. If these rules aren't met, the arrival doing CATII or III goes missed. no ifs, ands or buts !

In India, specifically at Lucknow, they are even more strict. They won't even clear the subsequent arrival for the approach until the previous lander is down and clear. Page 24.

https://aim-india.aai.aero/eaip-v2//25- ... -en-GB.pdf

9.3 Protection of ILS Critical & Sensitive Areas:
9.3.1 ATCOs shall comply with the following guidelines for protection of Localizer Critical/Sensitive area during CAT II/IIIA/
IIIB Operations:
9.3.2 Approach Control/Aerodrome Control Tower shall ensure that a succeeding arriving aircraft is cleared for CAT II or
CAT IIIA or CAT IIIB ILS approach only after the:
a. Preceding arriving aircraft has landed and vacated the runway and is clear of localizer critical and sensitive Area or has
carried out the missed approach procedure and has passed over localizer antenna.
b. Preceding departing aircraft is airborne and has passed over the localizer antenna


So the standard is 4NM. Some countries have exceptions to go below the rule (FAA), other countries go above and beyond the rule (India).



I reckon thats why we were hovering over the airport from 02:21 till 02:56 (UTC) when we finally went for the final turn to land because the taxing was so slow that I remember we touched down at 03:09 and because I was video recording everything from the boarding till parking I know the exact timelines and we finally parked at 03:19 it took us around 10 minutes to parking which is unusually longer for our single RWY Airport but then it was my first ever CATIIIB experience so I didn't know about the standard operating procedures during these conditions. Now having learned that my airport has taxing limitation to just one taxiway for both ARR and DEP and also parking limitations to just 4 parking bays and how carefully these operations are carried out I totally understand why we used the whole RWY and taxied the way we did.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:53 am

FligtReporter wrote:
Finally my CAT IIIB landing video is on my Channel with full weather details !!

I'm inexplicably grateful to all of the amazing pilots and people in the aviation community who helped me learn so much about CAT IIIB.

Thank you so so much everyone !!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2lO3YylBMY

When i started watching the video, I said to myself, "this aint so bad. A regular CATI ILS will do." I kept saying that, until the aircraft got to 1NM final, that is ! Wow..

It's almost as if the airport was built in a fog prone area.

Anyway, for a city of 3 to 4 million, that airport will become obsolete pretty quickly (surprised it isn't already). Single runway, no parallel taxiway, and not enough gates. Hopefully the next airport they build will be in a better location, one that is less fog prone.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:37 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Finally my CAT IIIB landing video is on my Channel with full weather details !!

I'm inexplicably grateful to all of the amazing pilots and people in the aviation community who helped me learn so much about CAT IIIB.

Thank you so so much everyone !!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2lO3YylBMY

When i started watching the video, I said to myself, "this aint so bad. A regular CATI ILS will do." I kept saying that, until the aircraft got to 1NM final, that is ! Wow..

It's almost as if the airport was built in a fog prone area.

Anyway, for a city of 3 to 4 million, that airport will become obsolete pretty quickly (surprised it isn't already). Single runway, no parallel taxiway, and not enough gates. Hopefully the next airport they build will be in a better location, one that is less fog prone.


Thanks for checking out my Video Mr Flyzone. I had similar thoughts while approaching the RWY 27 because I had specifically booked this flight to experience CATIIIB as I had checked the forecast before booking and I knew it would be foggy and when I saw buildings in light fog I was a little heartbroken because I thought Its gonna be a normal landing but just like your reaction as we got closer to the airport I was happy beyond words to see the aircraft wings engulfed in fog and to this day and forever I will always remember this experience and can't wait to experience it again..I'm actually planning to make a fully detailed video of this landing with commentary explaining all that I have learnt from people like you.

And just to let you know the new terminal called Terminal 3 is under construction and also there are plans to build parallel txiways too and also a new apron area is being constructed adjacent to the VIP apron area which will accommodate 8 narrow body aircrafts bringing the total number of Aircrafts to be handled by my airport to 22 including 2 Widebodies from present 14.I have the blueprint of the future constructions at my Airport but I don't know how to share it here.

The construction would have completed this year but due to pandemic the work was halted but now they have resumed it at full swing and It should be complete by next year or the year after.

And there are no plans to make a new airport in the city because we don't have space and the other one we have is an airbase and is militarized which is in the north part of the city and as far as thinking of a location that is less fog prone then its not possible, the whole city and northern Indian belt gets foggy every winter, yeah some areas may have it dispersed sooner than others but they surely will have thick fog cover during winters that's for sure.

I don't know how to share pictures here but If I could I would love to share em with you.You know I'm the first and only plane spotter of my city with the largest collection of plane spottings and flight reports.I have also captured,which could be the last flight of Lufthansa A346 and I also recorded the whole Lufthansa Repatriation mission to New Zealand all from my terrace.Actually my house is just around 3KMs NW to the RWY which I count as a blessing for I get to spot perfect approaches and takeoffs on both RWY 09 and RWY 27 and also for contrail spotting of High Flying birds !
Last edited by FligtReporter on Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FligtReporter
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Posts: 508
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:50 am

Hello Everyone !

Here is the link to my CAT IIIB Landing video at my home base LKO ...I hope you all will like it !

https://youtu.be/K2lO3YylBMY
 
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Starlionblue
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:31 am

FligtReporter wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Finally my CAT IIIB landing video is on my Channel with full weather details !!

I'm inexplicably grateful to all of the amazing pilots and people in the aviation community who helped me learn so much about CAT IIIB.

Thank you so so much everyone !!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2lO3YylBMY

When i started watching the video, I said to myself, "this aint so bad. A regular CATI ILS will do." I kept saying that, until the aircraft got to 1NM final, that is ! Wow..

It's almost as if the airport was built in a fog prone area.

Anyway, for a city of 3 to 4 million, that airport will become obsolete pretty quickly (surprised it isn't already). Single runway, no parallel taxiway, and not enough gates. Hopefully the next airport they build will be in a better location, one that is less fog prone.


Thanks for checking out my Video Mr Flyzone. I had similar thoughts while approaching the RWY 27 because I had specifically booked this flight to experience CATIIIB as I had checked the forecast before booking and I knew it would be foggy and when I saw buildings in light fog I was a little heartbroken because I thought Its gonna be a normal landing but just like your reaction as we got closer to the airport I was happy beyond words to see the aircraft wings engulfed in fog and to this day and forever I will always remember this experience and can't wait to experience it again..I'm actually planning to make a fully detailed video of this landing with commentary explaining all that I have learnt from people like you.

And just to let you know the new terminal called Terminal 3 is under construction and also there are plans to build parallel txiways too and also a new apron area is being constructed adjacent to the VIP apron area which will accommodate 8 narrow body aircrafts bringing the total number of Aircrafts to be handled by my airport to 22 including 2 Widebodies from present 14.I have the blueprint of the future constructions at my Airport but I don't know how to share it here.

The construction would have completed this year but due to pandemic the work was halted but now they have resumed it at full swing and It should be complete by next year or the year after.

And there are no plans to make a new airport in the city because we don't have space and the other one we have is an airbase and is militarized which is in the north part of the city and as far as thinking of a location that is less fog prone then its not possible, the whole city and northern Indian belt gets foggy every winter, yeah some areas may have it dispersed sooner than others but they surely will have thick fog cover during winters that's for sure.

I don't know how to share pictures here but If I could I would love to share em with you.You know I'm the first and only plane spotter of my city with the largest collection of plane spottings and flight reports.I have also captured,which could be the last flight of Lufthansa A346 and I also recorded the whole Lufthansa Repatriation mission to New Zealand all from my terrace.Actually my house is just around 3KMs NW to the RWY which I count as a blessing for I get to spot perfect approaches and takeoffs on both RWY 09 and RWY 27 and also for contrail spotting of High Flying birds !



A service like Imgur can be used to share pics. Post them on Imgur and then embed them in the post.

https://imgur.com/
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:29 am

Starlionblue wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2lO3YylBMY

When i started watching the video, I said to myself, "this aint so bad. A regular CATI ILS will do." I kept saying that, until the aircraft got to 1NM final, that is ! Wow..

It's almost as if the airport was built in a fog prone area.

Anyway, for a city of 3 to 4 million, that airport will become obsolete pretty quickly (surprised it isn't already). Single runway, no parallel taxiway, and not enough gates. Hopefully the next airport they build will be in a better location, one that is less fog prone.


Thanks for checking out my Video Mr Flyzone. I had similar thoughts while approaching the RWY 27 because I had specifically booked this flight to experience CATIIIB as I had checked the forecast before booking and I knew it would be foggy and when I saw buildings in light fog I was a little heartbroken because I thought Its gonna be a normal landing but just like your reaction as we got closer to the airport I was happy beyond words to see the aircraft wings engulfed in fog and to this day and forever I will always remember this experience and can't wait to experience it again..I'm actually planning to make a fully detailed video of this landing with commentary explaining all that I have learnt from people like you.

And just to let you know the new terminal called Terminal 3 is under construction and also there are plans to build parallel txiways too and also a new apron area is being constructed adjacent to the VIP apron area which will accommodate 8 narrow body aircrafts bringing the total number of Aircrafts to be handled by my airport to 22 including 2 Widebodies from present 14.I have the blueprint of the future constructions at my Airport but I don't know how to share it here.

The construction would have completed this year but due to pandemic the work was halted but now they have resumed it at full swing and It should be complete by next year or the year after.

And there are no plans to make a new airport in the city because we don't have space and the other one we have is an airbase and is militarized which is in the north part of the city and as far as thinking of a location that is less fog prone then its not possible, the whole city and northern Indian belt gets foggy every winter, yeah some areas may have it dispersed sooner than others but they surely will have thick fog cover during winters that's for sure.

I don't know how to share pictures here but If I could I would love to share em with you.You know I'm the first and only plane spotter of my city with the largest collection of plane spottings and flight reports.I have also captured,which could be the last flight of Lufthansa A346 and I also recorded the whole Lufthansa Repatriation mission to New Zealand all from my terrace.Actually my house is just around 3KMs NW to the RWY which I count as a blessing for I get to spot perfect approaches and takeoffs on both RWY 09 and RWY 27 and also for contrail spotting of High Flying birds !



A service like Imgur can be used to share pics. Post them on Imgur and then embed them in the post.

https://imgur.com/


Thanks for the link Mr Starlion I'm gonna check it out and create my account on it and then share pics through it :)
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:12 pm

I feel Its better to post photos here but I think this website doesn't support Android photo uploads because I see no options of uploading photos here.

I guess I should stick with my Channel Only :(
 
FligtReporter
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:31 pm

Can anyone tell me whether posting Links to my videos is allowed or not in here in this thread ?

Or

Is there a special permission I need to take before posting links ?
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:43 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
Thank you for your response, Mr IAH...I assume IAH has CAT IIIA and given the visibility conditions in USA are not as adverse as in North India during winters I reckon it would be a waste of money to have a CAT IIIB installed anyways because I believe it costs millions of dollars to install it and then to maintain it another costly affair.I just got to know a few posts ago that Canada doesn't even have a single airport with CAT IIIB and Initially I was astonished because I have been to the YYZ and with all the snow storm and everything I had experienced there,I thought it must have CATIIIC let alone IIIB but I guess they only have the IIIA.

Probably the reason why whole of North American Continent doesnt require as many CAT IIIB airports as North India because it has clear visibility conditions due to US,CAN and MEX not polluting air too much and that helps keep the air clean and doesn't add to the thickness of fog during winters.

I was wondering how many airports in total in the USA,have CATIIIB though ?

Thanks again Mr.IAH


There are plenty of CAT IIIB minimums in the U.S., every east/west runway at IAH as CAT IIIB mins which would have up a total of six of them. IAH is on the north side of Houston, go across town to William P. Hobby International Airport (HOU) and you'll find CAT IIIB mins to Runway 4 there. Go north to DFW and you'll find something like six or eight more with RVR 600' mins, call CAT IIIB. Yes these are major airports and yes the cost is very high to maintain them as well as Flight Inspection requirements.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:50 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
There is no mention of 4NM in your document, but there is mention of outer marker (OM), which normally identifies the FAF, and which is normally around 4 to 7 NM final.

3.7.5 PRECISION APPROACH CRITICAL AREA

ILS critical area dimensions are described in FAA Order 6750.16, Siting Criteria for Instrument Landing Systems. Aircraft and vehicle access to the ILS critical area must be controlled to ensure the integrity of ILS course signals whenever the official weather observation is a ceiling of less than 800 feet or visibility less than 2 miles. Do not authorize vehicles/aircraft to operate in or over the critical area, except as specified in subpara a1, whenever an arriving aircraft is inside the ILS outer marker (OM) or the fix used in lieu of the OM unless the arriving aircraft has reported the runway in sight or is circling to land on another runway.


So you see, even for the FAA, the standard is around 4NM. Now obviously, for the FAA, there does seem to be an exception to the rule, but the standard rule is still a sterile critical area when the subsequent lander gets to the OM / FAF / ~4NM final.


That was why I did not agree with the 4 NM, as it is not a steadfast in stone rule across the board, not the standard everywhere (FAA). I was only attempting to point that exception out. Speaking of OM's, wonder just how many ILS approaches no longer have OM's associated with the procedures, but rather FAF's? I know in this region of the FAA (Southwest Region Office) they started removing them due to maintenance costs many years ago.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:38 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Thank you for your response, Mr IAH...I assume IAH has CAT IIIA and given the visibility conditions in USA are not as adverse as in North India during winters I reckon it would be a waste of money to have a CAT IIIB installed anyways because I believe it costs millions of dollars to install it and then to maintain it another costly affair.I just got to know a few posts ago that Canada doesn't even have a single airport with CAT IIIB and Initially I was astonished because I have been to the YYZ and with all the snow storm and everything I had experienced there,I thought it must have CATIIIC let alone IIIB but I guess they only have the IIIA.

Probably the reason why whole of North American Continent doesnt require as many CAT IIIB airports as North India because it has clear visibility conditions due to US,CAN and MEX not polluting air too much and that helps keep the air clean and doesn't add to the thickness of fog during winters.

I was wondering how many airports in total in the USA,have CATIIIB though ?

Thanks again Mr.IAH


There are plenty of CAT IIIB minimums in the U.S., every east/west runway at IAH as CAT IIIB mins which would have up a total of six of them. IAH is on the north side of Houston, go across town to William P. Hobby International Airport (HOU) and you'll find CAT IIIB mins to Runway 4 there. Go north to DFW and you'll find something like six or eight more with RVR 600' mins, call CAT IIIB. Yes these are major airports and yes the cost is very high to maintain them as well as Flight Inspection requirements.


Thats kewl to know Mr IAH...Thanks for your response.I like knowing about the aviation stuff of different countries from the people on ground. BTW are you a pilot and if so then what AC type do you fly and whats your most favorite approach to takeoff from and land into in the USA and why ?
Thanks again Mr IAH
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:49 pm

Mr IAH already answered you in one of the original replies:

IAHFLYR wrote:
I do have a Private License with around 1,500+ hours mostly in single engine Cessna's, Pipers, Moony, Twin Engine Cessna's, few hours in BE90 right seater and quite a few hours in CO level D MD80, B735, B738, B752 and B788 sims (very luck in my work to have been able to fly them). My career was ATC Tower and Approach Control.


I'm sure people appreciate your enthusiasm, and we're glad you experienced that CatIII approach, but whoa you gotta lay off it a bit.
It's not something to be worshipped really. If there is a business case to install one in a city that needs it (enough flights, business people, weather bad enough, enough money to do it), it will get done.
CFI/Gr. III, L-382 Loadmaster, ex C-130B Navigator
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:55 pm

SAAFNAV wrote:
Mr IAH already answered you in one of the original replies:

IAHFLYR wrote:
I do have a Private License with around 1,500+ hours mostly in single engine Cessna's, Pipers, Moony, Twin Engine Cessna's, few hours in BE90 right seater and quite a few hours in CO level D MD80, B735, B738, B752 and B788 sims (very luck in my work to have been able to fly them). My career was ATC Tower and Approach Control.


I'm sure people appreciate your enthusiasm, and we're glad you experienced that CatIII approach, but whoa you gotta lay off it a bit. I'm sure India has got enough deities as it is.


Yes, most probably do though appreciate it....don't want to dull that enthusiasm one bit just contain it some! :biggrin:
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:59 pm

SAAFNAV wrote:
Mr IAH already answered you in one of the original replies:

IAHFLYR wrote:
I do have a Private License with around 1,500+ hours mostly in single engine Cessna's, Pipers, Moony, Twin Engine Cessna's, few hours in BE90 right seater and quite a few hours in CO level D MD80, B735, B738, B752 and B788 sims (very luck in my work to have been able to fly them). My career was ATC Tower and Approach Control.


I'm sure people appreciate your enthusiasm, and we're glad you experienced that CatIII approach, but whoa you gotta lay off it a bit. I'm sure India has got enough deities as it is.


Oh yeah I totally forgot that It was Mr IAH who answered it ...because I have been interacting with Mr IAH, Mr FlyZone, Mr Starlion, Mr Galaxyflyer and So many other experts that I don't remember which one I had asked this Question to :lol:
Thanks for this though MrSAAF.
And I'm sorry if my enthusiasm bothered you or appeared to be a little over the top...I won't be commenting anymore.

Take care Mr SAAF
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:01 pm

Little talked about, but USN aircraft carriers also do the equivalent of CAT III.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:02 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Mr IAH already answered you in one of the original replies:

IAHFLYR wrote:
I do have a Private License with around 1,500+ hours mostly in single engine Cessna's, Pipers, Moony, Twin Engine Cessna's, few hours in BE90 right seater and quite a few hours in CO level D MD80, B735, B738, B752 and B788 sims (very luck in my work to have been able to fly them). My career was ATC Tower and Approach Control.


I'm sure people appreciate your enthusiasm, and we're glad you experienced that CatIII approach, but whoa you gotta lay off it a bit. I'm sure India has got enough deities as it is.


Yes, most probably do though appreciate it....don't want to dull that enthusiasm one bit just contain it some! :biggrin:


Thanks Mr IAH...I just forgot whom I had asked this Q to and because I've been busy editing my videos and also other projects I forgot it was you.I'm sorry to bother you..Won't disturb you now.

Thanks a lot for your help all these days.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Little talked about, but USN aircraft carriers also do the equivalent of CAT III.


Thats an intriguing statement to me..It never really crossed my mind that how hard it must landing on an AC carrier but I guess that's because I've never been a fan of F16s and Sukhois and other fighter jets in general. Btw have you ever been on fighter jet,Mr Galaxy ?And is it really like close to a blind landing while approaching the Aircraft carrier or somewhat closer to like really delicate type of precision approach ?

I have just seen the procedure while landings at AC carriers in the videos and it all does look pretty delicate but may be the fighter pilots are so good at it that it all looks effortless. I have no idea what the standard operating procedures are at the AC carriers,however, I'm sure it must be a challenging task.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:24 pm

Flew USAF, not USN, F-100 and A-10. Carrier landings, “traps” in day VMC can be fun and easy, says my brother, night and IMC are work and you earn your pay. All done without radio transmissions, so the planes don’t reveal the ship’s location, timed approaches.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:36 pm

 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Flew USAF, not USN, F-100 and A-10. Carrier landings, “traps” in day VMC can be fun and easy, says my brother, night and IMC are work and you earn your pay. All done without radio transmissions, so the planes don’t reveal the ship’s location, timed approaches.


OMG...Wait a minute so it means you're an Ex Fighter Pilot and I believe your brother is one too !! Thats super amazing so first of all Salute to you because I believe Fighter pilots put their life on the line for their countries which is heroic !

Secondly,I didn't even know the plane you mentioned ( F 100 and A-10 ) I had to google it up and by the looks of both these jets it appears like they are old generation fighter jet,so did you fly it like In the 70s or 80s or something MrGalaxy ?

And the thing about flying without Radio transmission is scary to a commoner like me but as you mentioned they they have to be secretive and keep themselves off the enemy's radar and radio tracing systems and probably thats why they must be through with these special landing procedures and I'm assuming all their operations and tracking of AC carrier landing strip are entirely GPS based with no radio at all.

Thanks for sharing Mr Galaxy !!
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:47 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
Thanks Mr IAH...I just forgot whom I had asked this Q to and because I've been busy editing my videos and also other projects I forgot it was you.I'm sorry to bother you..Won't disturb you now.

Thanks a lot for your help all these days.


Hey, don't do that and your not a bother in the least. I enjoy sharing what little insights I may have regarding aviation with those who are interested. Can sit for hours on end with my pals who either fly corporately, privately, airlines or are retired and just chat aviation, best part is those around who may overhear will often chime into the conversation with questions just as you have done.

Please do not take my comment personally nor in a negative manner as it was not intended to be such, rather that some on these boards could calm down some. There are numerous posts by some folks that simply repeat the same post on another one of the forums and if they don't get the interest they think they should they will come back a few hours later and post another on the same topic. None of that you did so ask away. :)
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:48 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:


Thanks for sharing this Mr Galaxy. I will go through it I'm sure it will be very intresting !
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:51 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:


Very interesting, never even thought about IMC carrier landings and no comms.

Have not watched the video as yet as we are about to get hammered with freezing weather and ice/snow, so the wife has ordered me to be the pack mule and start taking outdoor plants and stuff into the garage as if that will help, no heat in the detached garage! :white: :rotfl: :hissyfit:
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:07 pm

As an old friend and carrier pilot (F4s) said, “old sailors called sailing into the wind ‘sailing to weather’; what to do carriers do, sail into the wind “. His carrier once spent most of the night and two tankers (USAF and RAF, one each) trying to get the planes aboard off Norway during a winter storm. Captain refused to send them to shore, Cold War all that. He did 8 bolsters before trapping. Don’t forget, the ship pitches and rolls, so the deck can actually be in the glide path.

Enjoy the snow and don’t get involved in a 100-vehicle pile-up as in Dallas
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:09 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:
Thanks Mr IAH...I just forgot whom I had asked this Q to and because I've been busy editing my videos and also other projects I forgot it was you.I'm sorry to bother you..Won't disturb you now.

Thanks a lot for your help all these days.


Hey, don't do that and your not a bother in the least. I enjoy sharing what little insights I may have regarding aviation with those who are interested. Can sit for hours on end with my pals who either fly corporately, privately, airlines or are retired and just chat aviation, best part is those around who may overhear will often chime into the conversation with questions just as you have done.

Please do not take my comment personally nor in a negative manner as it was not intended to be such, rather that some on these boards could calm down some. There are numerous posts by some folks that simply repeat the same post on another one of the forums and if they don't get the interest they think they should they will come back a few hours later and post another on the same topic. None of that you did so ask away. :)


Thanks a lot for your kind words Mr IAH. Actually I joined this website back when I created my Channel on YT but at that time I didn't know much about this place as I had only viewed this website as a place where plane spotters shared their photos it was a little later that I found out we could even interact with people about aviation but I wasn't too frequent on this site as of late.

Just this month I experienced something which was very special to me and at first I shared it in the Indian aviation section which was the only section I knew and visitted but I guess no one was interested so I thought of writing about it under tech section through which I may get to interact with people who may have had similar experiences but to my surprise I got more than what I had wished for.

I got to interact with people who have not only experienced it but also helped me understand it better and I can never forget MrGalaxy who helped me get the accurate Weather report at the time of the approach of my flight and Mr Starlion, who taught me more about reading METAR report also Mrflyzone and You MrIAH all of you have been so patient and kind to me that I can't thank you all in words.

I know I may be very annoying with my over excitement but I just love aviation and Im always eager to learn more and more,however, my intention is never to bother you and others,and if ever,even inadvertently I may end up bothering you.. then plz pardon me.

Thanks again for being patient with me MrIAH...I hope to learn more from you and other intellects !
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:13 pm

It was the Jindals of Jindal Steel, I was flying into Delhi on a demonstration trip to South America. Very nice family, later in the trip I flew some of their children to Europe for school. Again, very nice and well behaved kids. Great memory of 12 years ago.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It was the Jindals of Jindal Steel, I was flying into Delhi on a demonstration trip to South America. Very nice family, later in the trip I flew some of their children to Europe for school. Again, very nice and well behaved kids. Great memory of 12 years ago.


Great MrGalaxy,
I just know that they are millionaires and they do steel business.I have never been on a private plane but then my dad isn't a Jindal either :lol: The closest I have ever experienced the "Private Jet Feel" is onboard the Air India Regional CRJ 700 which was also my very first time on an aircraft and this was back in 2008 and I enjoyed it so much so that I still remember my seat No, The Aircraft Registration and the name of the lady Captain too :)
 
Woodreau
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:29 pm

We’ll use the signal lantern during ziplip. Green flashing beacon - green deck. Recover aircraft. Amber beacon and red beacon amber deck and red deck.

For helicopters if they have to fly in less than case iii and have to do a recovery there are no precision instrument approaches for a destroyer like there is for a carrier - other than a non precision tacan. So a sailor stationed at the back end of the ship has a case of smoke markers and when the helicopter gets close enough to the back end, we tell the sailor to start throwing smoke markers over the side at 30 second intervals. We tell the helo pilot how many smoke markers are over the side. So that when the helo spots a smoke marker he just follows the marker trail and counts the smoke markers up to the stern of the ship until he gains visual contact and we can recover into the beartrap.

The Indian navy likes to come find us transiting the Bay of Bengal and the andaman sea and around srilanka so we play our games and they play their games trying to find us.

If you watch the f-18 landing video after the trap you get a pretty good view of how the yellow shirt Marshallers get the aircraft taxiing around on deck and how they signal stop following my Marshall signals and follow that next yellow shirt Marshaller. There’s at least 8-9 marshaller transition handoffs after he is disconnected from the arresting wire.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:55 am

Woodreau wrote:
We’ll use the signal lantern during ziplip. Green flashing beacon - green deck. Recover aircraft. Amber beacon and red beacon amber deck and red deck.

For helicopters if they have to fly in less than case iii and have to do a recovery there are no precision instrument approaches for a destroyer like there is for a carrier - other than a non precision tacan. So a sailor stationed at the back end of the ship has a case of smoke markers and when the helicopter gets close enough to the back end, we tell the sailor to start throwing smoke markers over the side at 30 second intervals. We tell the helo pilot how many smoke markers are over the side. So that when the helo spots a smoke marker he just follows the marker trail and counts the smoke markers up to the stern of the ship until he gains visual contact and we can recover into the beartrap.

The Indian navy likes to come find us transiting the Bay of Bengal and the andaman sea and around srilanka so we play our games and they play their games trying to find us.

If you watch the f-18 landing video after the trap you get a pretty good view of how the yellow shirt Marshallers get the aircraft taxiing around on deck and how they signal stop following my Marshall signals and follow that next yellow shirt Marshaller. There’s at least 8-9 marshaller transition handoffs after he is disconnected from the arresting wire.


Very Intresting Mr Woodreau...thanks for all the info.
 
e38
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:40 pm

FligtReporter, are you familiar with Surface Movement Guidance and Control System (SMGCS)?

As you know, the most challenging part of low visibility operations (Cat II and Cat III) is not necessarily the approach and landing, but getting from the runway to the parking location.

Some airports that have low visibility approaches also have a fairly sophisticated network of lighting, ground markings, and signage for specific use during Cat II/III operations. When low vis ops are in progress, these SMGCS procedures are briefed by the crew prior to beginning the approach and must be followed after landing. In general, the lights consist of "lead-off" lights from the runway to the taxiways (normally green), taxiway centerline lights (also green), runway stop bar lights (red), and airfield position markings (normally fluorescent pink). There are other lighting and airfield markings as well.

In most cases, specific taxiways are designated for exiting the runway as not every taxiway leading off the runway will be equipped with the appropriate lighting and/or markings. That's why it's important to pre-brief the taxi procedure--after landing, if the aircraft has slowed to an acceptable taxi speed and an exit becomes visible, it may not be authorized under the low visibility operation procedure. For pilots, it's often a habit to exit a runway at the first available taxiway commensurate with taxi speed; however, under low vis ops, that is not always an approved exit point! It's important to note that the last exit of the runway is always an approved exit point.

The primary purpose of the lighting and signage is to allow aircraft to transition safely from the runway to the parking spots, but it also serves to separate and deconflict departing and arriving aircraft.

I realize that Lucknow airport does not have a SMGCS system, but that is the reason, under low visibility operations, that aircraft will exit the runway at the end, while departing aircraft will probably be assigned an intermediate taxiway to enter the runway for back taxi.

e38
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:58 pm

e38 wrote:
I realize that Lucknow airport does not have a SMGCS system, but that is the reason, under low visibility operations, that aircraft will exit the runway at the end, while departing aircraft will probably be assigned an intermediate taxiway to enter the runway for back taxi.

e38


Lucknow does have a SMGCS plan. Look at the document I linked several posts above. (all the pages that talk about their low vis operation plans are it !)

Every airport can have a SMGCS plan. It's not that complicated. You don't need to have taxiway centerline lights or stop bars to have a SMGCS plan. If you have taxiway centerline markings and rwy guard lights only, you can still have an SMGCS plan. (several airports here in Canada fit that bill, and still have low vis ops and an SMGCS plan, ex. YMX, YWG)

Not all airports have A-SGMCS. (A stands for Advanced). Don't confuse the two. (Btw, Lucknow has that too). A-SGMCS has a ground surveillance component to it (ASDE/MLAT, and so on), and might have safety nets, conflict detection, resolution etc, built in.

SMGCS doesn't need any of that stuff. Just a plan of sorts, written on a piece of paper, and disseminated properly to those involved (pilots, airport vehicle operators, airport authority etc) will do the trick. (Ex. one of the steps of the SMGCS plan might be to close off vehicle roads that don't have illuminated markings during low vis ops.)

Ex. in the case of YWG, which doesn't have stop bars or taxiway centerline lights on its CATII runway and adjoining taxiways, their SMGCS plan is to restrict movement on the maneuvering area to 1 at a time during low vis operations (RVR below 1200ft down to 600ft).

YQB, another airport that doesn't even have a CATII or III ILS approach, has a SMGCS plan for reduced visibility operations (RVR below 2600ft down to 1200ft).
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:24 pm

FligtReporter wrote:

I was wondering how many airports in total in the USA,have CATIIIB though ?


Compared to all the airports in the US with ILS approaches ? Very few !

Here is an FAA list of all ILS's in the country. Scroll to the right to see CATIII runways. It's not a lot, considering the number of ILS's, but its still enough to cover basically all major airports across the country. If you see the minimum as RVR 700, it's most likely a CATIIIA only runway. You need to see 600ft or 300ft for it to be a CATIIIB.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/Upload_313-d/IL ... 210128.xls

Here is another list of all airports approved by the FAA for low vis operations. (departures/arrivals in RVR less than 1200ft)

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... SMGCS.xlsx

They number less than 70. Not all of these airports necessarily have CATIII approaches, but most do. (Ex. KFWA is on the list, and doesn't have a CATIII.)

Those 70 airports probably cover 90% + of commercial flights or passenger activity across the country.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:59 am

Forgot to mention.

In that second link above, notice how there are only 7 airports in the US authorized for operations below RVR 500ft. (I spoke about this last week).

ATL, DEN, GEG, BOI, MEM, SLC, SEA.

Don't know why PDX isn't on that level 2 list, as it has RVR 300 CATIII ops as well. So I think it should be 8 airports. Still, out of the thousands of airports in the US, 8 isn't a lot.

Canada doesn't have any airport that is approved for sub-RVR 600ft operations, at least not yet.

Nor the FAA nor Transport Canada authorize sub RVR 300ft operations. Europe, however, does, down to RVR 250ft (75m). There are a lot more European airports with RVR 250-300ft capability than in the US/Canada.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:52 am

e38 wrote:
FligtReporter, are you familiar with Surface Movement Guidance and Control System (SMGCS)?

As you know, the most challenging part of low visibility operations (Cat II and Cat III) is not necessarily the approach and landing, but getting from the runway to the parking location.

Some airports that have low visibility approaches also have a fairly sophisticated network of lighting, ground markings, and signage for specific use during Cat II/III operations. When low vis ops are in progress, these SMGCS procedures are briefed by the crew prior to beginning the approach and must be followed after landing. In general, the lights consist of "lead-off" lights from the runway to the taxiways (normally green), taxiway centerline lights (also green), runway stop bar lights (red), and airfield position markings (normally fluorescent pink). There are other lighting and airfield markings as well.

In most cases, specific taxiways are designated for exiting the runway as not every taxiway leading off the runway will be equipped with the appropriate lighting and/or markings. That's why it's important to pre-brief the taxi procedure--after landing, if the aircraft has slowed to an acceptable taxi speed and an exit becomes visible, it may not be authorized under the low visibility operation procedure. For pilots, it's often a habit to exit a runway at the first available taxiway commensurate with taxi speed; however, under low vis ops, that is not always an approved exit point! It's important to note that the last exit of the runway is always an approved exit point.

The primary purpose of the lighting and signage is to allow aircraft to transition safely from the runway to the parking spots, but it also serves to separate and deconflict departing and arriving aircraft.

I realize that Lucknow airport does not have a SMGCS system, but that is the reason, under low visibility operations, that aircraft will exit the runway at the end, while departing aircraft will probably be assigned an intermediate taxiway to enter the runway for back taxi.

e38


Hello MrE 38
Thanks for elaborating the SMGCS and I had mentioned in my previous posts the unique taxing procedure that my aircraft took and MrFlyzone actually had given me a link which was by AAI (Airports Authority Of India) specifically directing the Low Visibility Procedures at my homebase and it had all the answers to my curiosity pertaining to taxing procedures and why the pilots did what they did during taxing.

After going through the document I learnt that at the moment (As Of Feb 2021) my airport just has one taxiway (C) and four parking bays (11,12,13 and 14) equipped with CAT IIIB lightning system and thats why my aircraft used the whole Runway and then backtracked and exited via C and parked at Parking bay 13.

I have been informed that in the next phase of upgradation the AAI is planing to upgrade other Taxiways and parking bays at my home base with CAT IIIB lighting.
 
CanukinUSA
Posts: 83
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:59 am

For everything you always wanted to know and more about All Weather Operations go to and download the All Weather Operations Guide from the Royal Aeronautical Society:
https://www.theairlinepilots.com/foruma ... sguide.pdf
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:26 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
FligtReporter wrote:

I was wondering how many airports in total in the USA,have CATIIIB though ?


Compared to all the airports in the US with ILS approaches ? Very few !

Here is an FAA list of all ILS's in the country. Scroll to the right to see CATIII runways. It's not a lot, considering the number of ILS's, but its still enough to cover basically all major airports across the country. If you see the minimum as RVR 700, it's most likely a CATIIIA only runway. You need to see 600ft or 300ft for it to be a CATIIIB.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/Upload_313-d/IL ... 210128.xls

Here is another list of all airports approved by the FAA for low vis operations. (departures/arrivals in RVR less than 1200ft)

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... SMGCS.xlsx

They number less than 70. Not all of these airports necessarily have CATIII approaches, but most do. (Ex. KFWA is on the list, and doesn't have a CATIII.)

Those 70 airports probably cover 90% + of commercial flights or passenger activity across the country.


Thank you so very much for the links Mrflyzone ! I understand in the USA or North America in general they measure RVR in FT and yes,I saw most of them under CAT IIIA operational RVR and the number of 300FT and 600FT ones were comparatively less.

Links with meticulous details are such a treat for a curious being like me,I could go on and on reading and learning it all day.

Thanks again Mr Flyzone !
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
Posts: 508
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Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:39 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Forgot to mention.

In that second link above, notice how there are only 7 airports in the US authorized for operations below RVR 500ft. (I spoke about this last week).

ATL, DEN, GEG, BOI, MEM, SLC, SEA.

Don't know why PDX isn't on that level 2 list, as it has RVR 300 CATIII ops as well. So I think it should be 8 airports. Still, out of the thousands of airports in the US, 8 isn't a lot.

Canada doesn't have any airport that is approved for sub-RVR 600ft operations, at least not yet.

Nor the FAA nor Transport Canada authorize sub RVR 300ft operations. Europe, however, does, down to RVR 250ft (75m). There are a lot more European airports with RVR 250-300ft capability than in the US/Canada.


Yes,I was wondering the same given Canada and USA face snow storms and what not but I guess the visibility aspect of majority of days in a year is probably not that bad in areas where they haven't installed it yet.

May be those 8 face the lowest visibility in the country and thats why they have been given this facility because I'm assuming the Aviation Authorities,before releasing funds for CAT IIIB installation at any airport,must be checking the past records of the flights and passengers affected by the Low Visibility conditions and if getting it installed could be a permanent solution for it.

I know that its very costly to get it installed and also maintaining it because I remember when my homebase got the CAT IIIB it was all in the news and I remember reading about its uniqueness and also its costs and how before every fog season (Late NOV - FEB) the Airport authorities start checking it and get done with all the maintenance that it requires.So it looks like a big responsibility and costly affair to me to maintain it.Here we just have 6 airports with III B (LKO,DEL,ATQ,CCU,JAI and BLR).
Last edited by FligtReporter on Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FligtReporter
Topic Author
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:03 am

Re: The Magic of "CAT IIIB"

Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:40 am

CanukinUSA wrote:
For everything you always wanted to know and more about All Weather Operations go to and download the All Weather Operations Guide from the Royal Aeronautical Society:
https://www.theairlinepilots.com/foruma ... sguide.pdf


Thanks for the link Mr CanUKinUSA !

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