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phatfarmlines
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Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:20 pm

Two videos from 2019 are showing a Sunwing 737 performing a "Kai-Tak" style approach into SXM's runway 28. Now, earlier in the 2010's decade, I've seen Youtube videos of turoboprops doing this, but never jets, and on this forum it's always mentioned that jets do not land in that direction.

What has changed that mainline jets such as Sunwing's are flying such approach (Other than high winds in that direction)? A new RNAV procedure developed by Sunwing? Or Sunwing pilots actually practicing circle-to-lands at SXM in the sims?

Both videos from Facebook TV:

Sunwing Landing Runway 28 (Source: Facebook user "Magic of the Caribbean")

Sunwing 737-8 Runway 28 **LANDING** 11-21-2019 (Source: Facebook user "Maho Beach Cam [PTZtv]")

B6 attempted a runway 28 landing the same day Sunwing successfully landed, but did a go-around:

Twitter feed of B6 320 FLL-SXM attempted landing (Source: Twitter user "PTZtv")
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:39 pm

It would be interesting to compare Sunwing’s stabilized visual approach standards with FOQA data on this final and landing. Looking at both videos, Sunwings is on final wings level for 8” and about 1800’ from touchdown. It looks close to 3 degree glide path, so rolled out about 100’ above the runway. Again, I’d like to read their criteria for stabilized approach.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:53 pm

Nice videos.

On the second link it says the Sunwing flight was from YUL. Bet you 5$ it was a French Canadian pilot flying that approach. Well done.

JetBlues’ attempt wasn’t as successful. They made the right choice in going around. Last thing you want is to attempt a landing with the wings not even level after crossing the threshold.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:24 pm

Yes, we all know French-Canadian pilots are superior, because they’re French and Canadian. I’ll still bet they violated any semblance of a stabilized approach.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:37 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, we all know French-Canadian pilots are superior, because they’re French and Canadian. I’ll still bet they violated any semblance of a stabilized approach.



I’m assuming that runway doesn’t have a stabilized approach criteria...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:12 am

Every operator has the stabilized approach criteria and it’s monitored by FOQA, on a visual approach, stable at 500’AGL includes being on course.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:47 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Every operator has the stabilized approach criteria and it’s monitored by FOQA, on a visual approach, stable at 500’AGL includes being on course.



There is no way to do that approach and be on centerline at 500 feet. The top of the ridge line is 1.5nm miles away from the runway, and 1,100 feet tall- a plane on a 3* glide slope would be at 500 feet 1.5NM from the end of the runway. I know where I fly, we can pre-brief known deviations from the stabilized approach criteria. For instance, we note that during the Expressway Visual at LGA, we will not be on centerline at 1000 feet as our policy requires (the guidance asks that we start the turn around CITI field at 900 feet, and roll out on final around 200-300 feet)- and the FOQA team specifically excludes the centerline deviations at LGA when the Expressway visual is used.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:02 am

Web500sjc wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Yes, we all know French-Canadian pilots are superior, because they’re French and Canadian. I’ll still bet they violated any semblance of a stabilized approach.



I’m assuming that runway doesn’t have a stabilized approach criteria...


Stabilised approach criteria are operator specific. They aren't waived for a particular runway.

For a visual approach, we have a requirement to be wings level by 300ft AAL.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:07 am

Web500sjc wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Every operator has the stabilized approach criteria and it’s monitored by FOQA, on a visual approach, stable at 500’AGL includes being on course.



There is no way to do that approach and be on centerline at 500 feet. The top of the ridge line is 1.5nm miles away from the runway, and 1,100 feet tall- a plane on a 3* glide slope would be at 500 feet 1.5NM from the end of the runway. I know where I fly, we can pre-brief known deviations from the stabilized approach criteria. For instance, we note that during the Expressway Visual at LGA, we will not be on centerline at 1000 feet as our policy requires (the guidance asks that we start the turn around CITI field at 900 feet, and roll out on final around 200-300 feet)- and the FOQA team specifically excludes the centerline deviations at LGA when the Expressway visual is used.


What is the purpose of having policies if you are allowed to violate them?
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

What is the purpose of having policies if you are allowed to violate them?


The stabilized by 500 ft and on course or centerline were what was required by the airline I flew with. HOWEVER, we had exceptions and they were called 'Special Airports'. Before a CPT could fly into a special he had to have the training which consisted of a few approaches in the simulator which were set up for those airports.

The IGS approach to Kai Tak and the visual into LGA come to mind, but I think we had a few more.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:18 pm

Im not seeing a lot of movement on the water nearby, which tells me there's not a lot of wind one direction or the other. (OK, not a great source of data, I know). Why not just make a downwind landing instead of what seems to be a risky nonstandard approach. Or are such landings off limits at SXM?
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:36 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Every operator has the stabilized approach criteria and it’s monitored by FOQA, on a visual approach, stable at 500’AGL includes being on course.



There is no way to do that approach and be on centerline at 500 feet. The top of the ridge line is 1.5nm miles away from the runway, and 1,100 feet tall- a plane on a 3* glide slope would be at 500 feet 1.5NM from the end of the runway. I know where I fly, we can pre-brief known deviations from the stabilized approach criteria. For instance, we note that during the Expressway Visual at LGA, we will not be on centerline at 1000 feet as our policy requires (the guidance asks that we start the turn around CITI field at 900 feet, and roll out on final around 200-300 feet)- and the FOQA team specifically excludes the centerline deviations at LGA when the Expressway visual is used.


What is the purpose of having policies if you are allowed to violate them?



I was unclear, you can’t violate the policy. The policy is to verbally brief planned deviations from the standard criteria so that the crew is aware of how the approach is intended to be flown and therefore the approach remains within the policy. The operator doesn’t want to make the standard criteria fit special approaches, because it would then be overly broad for the vast majority of our operation. Therefore they allow exceptions to be made- if they must be made and if they are briefed before the approach commences.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:34 am

Web500sjc wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:


There is no way to do that approach and be on centerline at 500 feet. The top of the ridge line is 1.5nm miles away from the runway, and 1,100 feet tall- a plane on a 3* glide slope would be at 500 feet 1.5NM from the end of the runway. I know where I fly, we can pre-brief known deviations from the stabilized approach criteria. For instance, we note that during the Expressway Visual at LGA, we will not be on centerline at 1000 feet as our policy requires (the guidance asks that we start the turn around CITI field at 900 feet, and roll out on final around 200-300 feet)- and the FOQA team specifically excludes the centerline deviations at LGA when the Expressway visual is used.


What is the purpose of having policies if you are allowed to violate them?



I was unclear, you can’t violate the policy. The policy is to verbally brief planned deviations from the standard criteria so that the crew is aware of how the approach is intended to be flown and therefore the approach remains within the policy. The operator doesn’t want to make the standard criteria fit special approaches, because it would then be overly broad for the vast majority of our operation. Therefore they allow exceptions to be made- if they must be made and if they are briefed before the approach commences.


Spot on.

Another example: Our stabilised approach criteria specify that V/S must be under 1000fpm. However, sometimes if the aircraft is very heavy this might not be possible. In which case a higher V/S is permitted as long as it is briefed.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:37 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Every operator has the stabilized approach criteria and it’s monitored by FOQA, on a visual approach, stable at 500’AGL includes being on course.


Our stabilized approach policy has the notation for the 1000’ gate, “The aircraft is on the correct lateral and vertical flightpath in accordance with the AOM and the approach, in final landing configuration”.

One could argue that “the approach” dictated a curved lateral approach course, thus satisfied the requirements of being “on course”.

(The 500’ gate includes the rest of the usuals, airspeed +10/-5, thrust stabilized, v/s <1000 fpm, all landing checks completed).
If you respond with a two page answer, obviously pre-prepared, I’m not going to bother reading it. Odds are, no one else is either!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:26 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

What is the purpose of having policies if you are allowed to violate them?



I was unclear, you can’t violate the policy. The policy is to verbally brief planned deviations from the standard criteria so that the crew is aware of how the approach is intended to be flown and therefore the approach remains within the policy. The operator doesn’t want to make the standard criteria fit special approaches, because it would then be overly broad for the vast majority of our operation. Therefore they allow exceptions to be made- if they must be made and if they are briefed before the approach commences.


Spot on.

Another example: Our stabilised approach criteria specify that V/S must be under 1000fpm. However, sometimes if the aircraft is very heavy this might not be possible. In which case a higher V/S is permitted as long as it is briefed.


Boeing allows up to a 15 knot tailwind if you buy a paper-only option (10 knot baseline). With a tailwind and MLW and maybe some field elevation, a large airplane like the 787-10 can exceed 1000fpm and get the SINK RATE alert before flare.
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:00 am

Hey guys,

I was the skipper on that flight.

Landing on runway 10 was impossible due to the 10kt tailwind limit our company has.

Regarding our company stable approach criteria, all elements were respected and the limiting factor was to be established within the runway edges by 100’ AGL which we were.

It was a visual raw data approach and the descent rate never exceeded 1000fpm.

I’ve been flying into SXM for the last 7-8 years and it was the first time I’ve seen westerly winds.
 
aeromoe
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:21 pm

737maxxx wrote:
Hey guys,

I was the skipper on that flight.

Landing on runway 10 was impossible due to the 10kt tailwind limit our company has.

Regarding our company stable approach criteria, all elements were respected and the limiting factor was to be established within the runway edges by 100’ AGL which we were.

It was a visual raw data approach and the descent rate never exceeded 1000fpm.

I’ve been flying into SXM for the last 7-8 years and it was the first time I’ve seen westerly winds.


:checkmark: :checkmark: Well done...thanks for chiming in!
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:32 pm

Thanks man! It was definitely a fun approach. Looking forward to doing it again one day.
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:19 am

737maxxx wrote:
Hey guys,

I was the skipper on that flight.

Landing on runway 10 was impossible due to the 10kt tailwind limit our company has.

Regarding our company stable approach criteria, all elements were respected and the limiting factor was to be established within the runway edges by 100’ AGL which we were.

It was a visual raw data approach and the descent rate never exceeded 1000fpm.

I’ve been flying into SXM for the last 7-8 years and it was the first time I’ve seen westerly winds.


Nicely done and a quite marvellous thing to see...Kudos <3
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737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:50 am

Thanks
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:51 pm

Has anyone ever landed on 28 with an airliner before?
 
N965UW
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:06 pm

737maxxx wrote:
Has anyone ever landed on 28 with an airliner before?


I have in FSX many times going directly over the hills, and let's just say the approach wasn't pretty :lol:

Awesome job making the landing in real life!
You can always go around
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:25 pm

Has anyone done it in real life?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:56 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

What is the purpose of having policies if you are allowed to violate them?



I was unclear, you can’t violate the policy. The policy is to verbally brief planned deviations from the standard criteria so that the crew is aware of how the approach is intended to be flown and therefore the approach remains within the policy. The operator doesn’t want to make the standard criteria fit special approaches, because it would then be overly broad for the vast majority of our operation. Therefore they allow exceptions to be made- if they must be made and if they are briefed before the approach commences.


Spot on.

Another example: Our stabilised approach criteria specify that V/S must be under 1000fpm. However, sometimes if the aircraft is very heavy this might not be possible. In which case a higher V/S is permitted as long as it is briefed.


Wouldn't the V/S limitation be a higher priority than being wings level at 300 / 500 / 1000?

Only asking because I have experienced the approach below several times and with the frequent gusty conditions, in the back it felt like stable V/S was most important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm9S0rJ3IbM
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:37 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:


I was unclear, you can’t violate the policy. The policy is to verbally brief planned deviations from the standard criteria so that the crew is aware of how the approach is intended to be flown and therefore the approach remains within the policy. The operator doesn’t want to make the standard criteria fit special approaches, because it would then be overly broad for the vast majority of our operation. Therefore they allow exceptions to be made- if they must be made and if they are briefed before the approach commences.


Spot on.

Another example: Our stabilised approach criteria specify that V/S must be under 1000fpm. However, sometimes if the aircraft is very heavy this might not be possible. In which case a higher V/S is permitted as long as it is briefed.


Wouldn't the V/S limitation be a higher priority than being wings level at 300 / 500 / 1000?

Only asking because I have experienced the approach below several times and with the frequent gusty conditions, in the back it felt like stable V/S was most important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm9S0rJ3IbM


I haven't experienced it myself but with a combination of high weight, a significant tailwind, and a high altitude airport, your approach speed may be so high that your VS ends up above 1000fpm on the glideslope.

The V/S would still be stable. Just high.

The ops manual doesn't really give priorities to the stabilised approach criteria. They are all of equal importance. ;)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:42 am

That’s a great question.

On a 3 degree slope, be it glideslope or visual approach, your descent rate is roughly half the groundspeed. For example, if your groundspeed is 150kts in a no wind condition, your descent rate will be about 750 feet per minute. Of course, turbulence, downdrafts and other factors come in to play hence the 1000fpm limitation leaving room for variations.

On the approach to runway 28 in SXM, I was fairly confident I could maintain the vertical profile within limits however the tricky part was maneuvering as close to the terrain as possible to give myself room to line up with the runway all while not exceeding 30 degrees of bank.

At our approach speed, the turning radius is fairly wide and there isn’t much room to maneuver with the mountain in the way.

Hope that answers your question.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:54 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

Spot on.

Another example: Our stabilised approach criteria specify that V/S must be under 1000fpm. However, sometimes if the aircraft is very heavy this might not be possible. In which case a higher V/S is permitted as long as it is briefed.


Wouldn't the V/S limitation be a higher priority than being wings level at 300 / 500 / 1000?

Only asking because I have experienced the approach below several times and with the frequent gusty conditions, in the back it felt like stable V/S was most important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm9S0rJ3IbM


I haven't experienced it myself but with a combination of high weight, a significant tailwind, and a high altitude airport, your approach speed may be so high that your VS ends up above 1000fpm on the glideslope.

The V/S would still be stable. Just high.

The ops manual doesn't really give priorities to the stabilised approach criteria. They are all of equal importance. ;)


Thanks for the details. :) In the video in question it's probably not much of an issue - these are interisland flights into HNL so pretty low weight, there's a gusty 15-30 knot quartering crosswind most of the time (runway 08L is 079 mag, prevailing winds are from 050-100, averaging 20 knots). HNL tends to bring a lot of the interisland arrivals in on short visual approaches to 04R and 08L as seen in the video, and of the 7-8 times I experienced it, there was never a stable 'wings level' condition but the descent rate always felt comfortable. For someone with only C172 time in the logbook, it sure is fun to experience at jet approach speeds.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:36 am

“Wings level” is about being aligned on the runway extended track, gusts of crosswind corrections requiring banks are expected within the wings level limitation.
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:15 pm

Who else has landed on 28 with an airliner before? Can’t find anything out there.
 
rbretas
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:24 am

I'm sorry for layman's question, but is that a "circling approach" or something different? How common are those approaches for widebodies?

I used to see 777s, 767s and 787s doing similar approaches often near my home in a 2,000m runway, and I always assumed most airports with terrain limitations had that choice when winds were not favourable.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Mon Mar 15, 2021 6:56 am

rbretas wrote:
I'm sorry for layman's question, but is that a "circling approach" or something different? How common are those approaches for widebodies?

I used to see 777s, 767s and 787s doing similar approaches often near my home in a 2,000m runway, and I always assumed most airports with terrain limitations had that choice when winds were not favourable.


As stated by 737maxxx, that was a visual approach, not circling. A circling approach implies flying the approach for another runway (in this case the reciprocal one) and then manoeuvring visually to position for the runway in use.

Circling approaches used to be more common, but many companies don't permit them nowadays. Circling approaches involve additional threats, and if you only do them once in a blue moon it is hard to maintain proficiency.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:03 pm

Well said Starlionblue.

Maintaining proficiency is key. Visual approaches are a dying art. If you don’t practice them on a routine basis, you will have a hard time when you have to do one.

At our airline, the company encourages manual flight amd visual approaches however the company culture is the opposite.

There are a only a handful of guys that fly raw data visual approaches all the time and I’m one of them. It payed off that day in SXM.
 
rbretas
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:19 am

Thank you very much for the clear reply. I have another related question: are visual approaches with downwind and half-turn safer than circling approaches? Briefly reading on Wikipedia, circle-to-land is used when "the other runways might lack instrument procedures or their approaches cannot be used for other reasons (traffic considerations, navigation aids being out of service, etc.)". Why not use visual approaches in these cases (weather permitting)?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:40 am

rbretas wrote:
Thank you very much for the clear reply. I have another related question: are visual approaches with downwind and half-turn safer than circling approaches? Briefly reading on Wikipedia, circle-to-land is used when "the other runways might lack instrument procedures or their approaches cannot be used for other reasons (traffic considerations, navigation aids being out of service, etc.)". Why not use visual approaches in these cases (weather permitting)?


I don't know if I'd call a visual approach safer than a circling one. They're just different. In both cases, careful energy management is key since you're typically missing the usual distance/altitude cues.

Why use circling instead of visual? As you say, weather. Say an airport with one runway only has an ILS from one direction. On this particular day, the wind favours the direction without the ILS but the cloud ceiling is 1400 feet AAL. Given the cloud ceiling, a purely visual approach is not possible. But,an aircraft can fly the ILS until below the clouds, then circle to land the other way.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mcdu
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:42 pm

That was a well flown approach Captain. Looked like you nailed the turn. I was a bit envious, wish I could have been flying that day into SXM.

737maxxx wrote:
Hey guys,

I was the skipper on that flight.

Landing on runway 10 was impossible due to the 10kt tailwind limit our company has.

Regarding our company stable approach criteria, all elements were respected and the limiting factor was to be established within the runway edges by 100’ AGL which we were.

It was a visual raw data approach and the descent rate never exceeded 1000fpm.

I’ve been flying into SXM for the last 7-8 years and it was the first time I’ve seen westerly winds.
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:45 pm

Thanks, appreciate it!
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:21 pm

737maxxx wrote:
Thanks, appreciate it!


I was so frustrated being the one millennial without a fb account since I eschew social media but I wanted to get one just to watch your landing. I found this link on YouTube which I'm assuming is the same one.

https://youtu.be/j6rqZBphS6Q

Just wanted to say Captain that that was an awesome landing even though you've heard it many times. Makes the river visual to DCA look like a cake walk.
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:34 pm

Thanks very much!

The river visual and 36 approach, break off for landing on 33 are fun too. I enjoyed the espressway visual in LGA also when I was flying the RJ’s.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:58 pm

phugoid1982 wrote:
737maxxx wrote:
Thanks, appreciate it!


I was so frustrated being the one millennial without a fb account since I eschew social media but I wanted to get one just to watch your landing. I found this link on YouTube which I'm assuming is the same one.

https://youtu.be/j6rqZBphS6Q

Just wanted to say Captain that that was an awesome landing even though you've heard it many times. Makes the river visual to DCA look like a cake walk.


Wow, that Youtube video provides a great perspective of the approach! Though I do worry about the sails of the yachts making their way in front of runway 28, which isn't a worry for planes taking of from runway 10 and flying an immediate right-hand turn to avoid the mountain. But I'm sure Captain 737maxxx had that figured out already for the visual approach.

737maxxx, you've made me fire up my old FSX and attempt this approach!
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:42 pm

I didn’t see any tall masts but I guess that could have caused a problem. I once had to go around in Boston due to a boat on the approach path. I maneuvered around it but ATC called the go around.
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:43 pm

737maxxx wrote:
I didn’t see any tall masts but I guess that could have caused a problem. I once had to go around in Boston due to a boat on the approach path. I maneuvered around it but ATC called the go around.


Was that by chance into 4L or 4R at BOS? Used to spot a lot there, wondering if those tall masted ships ever posed a problem for approaching aircraft, before I moved to DC and Gravelly point became my favorite spot especially when 33 was in use for landings and I did see a few 737-800s use it on particularly blustery days.
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:25 am

Exactly, it was 4L or 4R.
 
737maxxx
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:36 am

.
 
N1120A
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:37 am

Starlionblue wrote:
rbretas wrote:
I'm sorry for layman's question, but is that a "circling approach" or something different? How common are those approaches for widebodies?

I used to see 777s, 767s and 787s doing similar approaches often near my home in a 2,000m runway, and I always assumed most airports with terrain limitations had that choice when winds were not favourable.


As stated by 737maxxx, that was a visual approach, not circling. A circling approach implies flying the approach for another runway (in this case the reciprocal one) and then manoeuvring visually to position for the runway in use.

Circling approaches used to be more common, but many companies don't permit them nowadays. Circling approaches involve additional threats, and if you only do them once in a blue moon it is hard to maintain proficiency.


A circling approach doesn't necessarily flying an approach for another runway. Many circling approaches point you at the middle of the airport. As you said, however, they are a dying breed since the widespread adoption of RNAV/GPS approaches.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:04 am

N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
rbretas wrote:
I'm sorry for layman's question, but is that a "circling approach" or something different? How common are those approaches for widebodies?

I used to see 777s, 767s and 787s doing similar approaches often near my home in a 2,000m runway, and I always assumed most airports with terrain limitations had that choice when winds were not favourable.


As stated by 737maxxx, that was a visual approach, not circling. A circling approach implies flying the approach for another runway (in this case the reciprocal one) and then manoeuvring visually to position for the runway in use.

Circling approaches used to be more common, but many companies don't permit them nowadays. Circling approaches involve additional threats, and if you only do them once in a blue moon it is hard to maintain proficiency.


A circling approach doesn't necessarily flying an approach for another runway. Many circling approaches point you at the middle of the airport. As you said, however, they are a dying breed since the widespread adoption of RNAV/GPS approaches.


Is there anywhere in the US where one would still be found?
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Starlionblue
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:15 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

As stated by 737maxxx, that was a visual approach, not circling. A circling approach implies flying the approach for another runway (in this case the reciprocal one) and then manoeuvring visually to position for the runway in use.

Circling approaches used to be more common, but many companies don't permit them nowadays. Circling approaches involve additional threats, and if you only do them once in a blue moon it is hard to maintain proficiency.


A circling approach doesn't necessarily flying an approach for another runway. Many circling approaches point you at the middle of the airport. As you said, however, they are a dying breed since the widespread adoption of RNAV/GPS approaches.


Is there anywhere in the US where one would still be found?


Random example: KISM VOR/DME-A. Note the absence of a specified runway in the approach name. If you look in the airport diagram bottom right you can see the approach comes in at an angle between 06 and 33. Approach and then circle to land on the runway in use.

In this particular case, the referenced VOR is at KMCO, more than 16 miles away, so you can't use a radial to approach a specific runway. If memory serves the maximum permitted offset angle for a non-precision runway approach is 15 degrees.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2107/05793VDA.PDF

Circling approaches don't have to be published. Tower can ask you to approach towards midfield and circle to land. Or fly an approach to runway XX, then circle to land on the reciprocal or another runway entirely.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
N1120A
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

As stated by 737maxxx, that was a visual approach, not circling. A circling approach implies flying the approach for another runway (in this case the reciprocal one) and then manoeuvring visually to position for the runway in use.

Circling approaches used to be more common, but many companies don't permit them nowadays. Circling approaches involve additional threats, and if you only do them once in a blue moon it is hard to maintain proficiency.


A circling approach doesn't necessarily flying an approach for another runway. Many circling approaches point you at the middle of the airport. As you said, however, they are a dying breed since the widespread adoption of RNAV/GPS approaches.


Is there anywhere in the US where one would still be found?


Many places. VNY, BUR, PSP, LGB, FUL, SDL, ABI, SPS, ROW, IPL, CRQ, SDM, BFL, MFR and more. Usually places where airspace or terrain issues factor in. They've progressively tried to reduce these approaches, but I doubt all of them will go away.

The kind of "unpublished" circling approach Starlionblue refers to is really a visual with a circling instruction. Usually happens when you're approaching from a different direction due to route vs winds.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
tmu101
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

As stated by 737maxxx, that was a visual approach, not circling. A circling approach implies flying the approach for another runway (in this case the reciprocal one) and then manoeuvring visually to position for the runway in use.

Circling approaches used to be more common, but many companies don't permit them nowadays. Circling approaches involve additional threats, and if you only do them once in a blue moon it is hard to maintain proficiency.


A circling approach doesn't necessarily flying an approach for another runway. Many circling approaches point you at the middle of the airport. As you said, however, they are a dying breed since the widespread adoption of RNAV/GPS approaches.


Is there anywhere in the US where one would still be found?


Does the EWR Runway 22 circle to Runway 29 count? Or Runway 4 circle to Runway 29? I believe those are published approaches so I'm not sure if those count or not.

Quoting Starlionblue "A circling approach doesn't necessarily flying an approach for another runway. Many circling approaches point you at the middle of the airport" i seem to remember an EWR approach where you'd approach the airport from the west, over fly the middle of the field out over Newark Bay, and then do a 180 degree turn and line up with Runway 29. I think it was called the Morris Ave Visual or something like that? Anyone remember that or has anyone ever flown that? Thank you all.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:16 pm

If it is an IFR circling approach, it is most definitely published and designed according a stanadard—TERPS, 8168 or some national standard. If the tower asks you to circle out of a visual, that’s a visual approach which are, mostly, unpublished. On a true IFR circling approach, the tower cannot ask the crew to modify their maneuvering as doing so might put the plane outside protected airspace.

Lots of straight-in approaches have circling mins set. You fly the VOR, LOC NDB, whatever, circle to land. Lots of circling approaches look like straight ins, but alignment (30 degrees off runway, IIRC) or descent required from minimums preclude straight in mins (see KASE)
 
e38
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Re: Sunwing 737 Runway 28 Landing at SXM on video

Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:54 am

Starlionblue wrote:
the referenced VOR is at KMCO, more than 16 miles away, so you can't use a radial to approach a specific runway. If memory serves the maximum permitted offset angle for a non-precision runway approach is 15 degrees.

Circling approaches don't have to be published. Tower can ask you to approach towards midfield and circle to land. Or fly an approach to runway XX, then circle to land on the reciprocal or another runway entirely.


As GalaxyFlyer commented above (Reply 46), an approach will be classified as a "circling approach" when the final approach course alignment with the runway centerline exceeds 30° or if the descent gradient is greater than 400 ft/NM from the FAF to the threshold crossing height (TCH). As depicted in the example above (Reply # 46) VOR/DME-A at Kissimmee Gateway Airport, a circling approach will exist when the landing runway is not specifically defined on the airfield.

A circling approach is the visual portion of an instrument approach to bring an aircraft into position for landing on a runway which is not suitably located for straight-in approach minima for the reasons stated above. To me, that would classify as an instrument approach. I don't remember briefing up a circling approach in preparation for a visual approach or a VFR pattern nor do I recall flying a circling approach that was not a published procedure. Perhaps they exist, but I have not had experience with a non-published circling approach.

When flying light aircraft into smaller airfields, I have not been asked by the tower to execute a "circling" maneuver. Instead, they generally state something like, "enter a right downwind for runway XX," or "report a left base for runway XX." If tower asked me to circle to land on a particular runway, I think I would understand the request, but visions of weather criteria and circling minimums would start to run through my head!

Orlando VOR (ORL) is physically located on the airfield at Orlando Executive Airport (KORL), not at Orlando International Airport (KMCO) which is about 6 n.m. south. Its location is interesting in that aircraft cleared for a visual approach to runways 18L/R at KMCO may be directed by approach control to "maintain 2600 feet until south of Orlando VOR" or "maintain 2600 feet until south of Executive Airport." This is to ensure traffic separation between aircraft in the VFR pattern at KORL and aircraft on approach to KMCO. Our airport guide for KMCO has a special note about this because if crews use an instrument approach (ILS or RNAV) as their backup approach and inadvertently arm the approach and initiate a descent, they will cross KORL around 2200 feet instead of 2600. Unfortunately, this has happened!

tmu101 (Reply 48), yes the EWR Runway 22 circle to Runway 29 and Runway 4 circle to Runway 29 count.

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