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OKCDCA
Topic Author
Posts: 293
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DFW Runway Operations

Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:25 pm

With much construction going on around DFW and specifically the west side of the airport, I’ve noticed quite a bit of delays for “Runway in Use” on FlightAware. That said, does anyone know why ATC won’t consistently use 18R/36L for arrivals? When I’ve been through the last couple weeks, I’ve seen an occasional wide body get to use it for landing but that appears to be it. Even with no aircraft in the departure queue it remains unused.

I would think ATC would know AA’s banks well enough that they could utilize it for arrivals to a point before departures start picking up again.

Any insight is appreciated.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: DFW Runway Operations

Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:32 pm

Not having looked at the NOTAMS for DFW there may be a few simple reasons.

1. ILS OTS due to construction.
2. Taxiways closed which make the utilization of the western most runway impractical.
3. Constant construction vehicles operating within the operations area.
4. Lack of ATC staffing due to COVID to utilize simultaneous triple independent approaches as it requires additional controllers in the TRACON and tower.

Having worked with some of the DFW folks back in the day they have an excellent relationship with AAL so I am certain ATC knows the banks very very well at DFW, so there is some very good reasons for the lack of use.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2069
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Re: DFW Runway Operations

Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:37 am

18R/36L is closed for runway reconstruction

https://www.cityofirving.org/DocumentCe ... Fact-Sheet
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: DFW Runway Operations

Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:05 pm

Woodreau wrote:
18R/36L is closed for runway reconstruction

https://www.cityofirving.org/DocumentCe ... Fact-Sheet


Well that's a pretty simple reason why not then!! :highfive:
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
OKCDCA
Topic Author
Posts: 293
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Re: DFW Runway Operations

Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:16 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
18R/36L is closed for runway reconstruction

https://www.cityofirving.org/DocumentCe ... Fact-Sheet


Well that's a pretty simple reason why not then!! :highfive:

That does make it simple! Got my L/R mixed up. Meant 18L/36R...
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4348
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:45 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
That does make it simple! Got my L/R mixed up. Meant 18L/36R...


Don't ya hate when that happens? :yes:

Then I will still go with the thoughts in my first post for now.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
atcdan
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:49 am

So, the decision to offload arrivals to 18L, which is one of two runways available for departures, has to be made hours in advance, when many of these arrivals are still on the ground at their departure points.

If there are too many inbounds for the east side plus 13R to handle, using 18L for arrivals essentially cuts the departure rate in half. Not the 18L departure rate, but the airport departure rate.

Discussions are had and plans made months ahead of time for long term closures like this, with all stakeholders (FAA/ATC, Airlines, and the airport) in order to minimize delays and maximize capacity. American would rather blame delays on ATC than adjust their schedule to something more realistic for the conditions, but they are the ones who decided, much more so than ATC personnel, what the runway use plan would be.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4348
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:43 pm

atcdan wrote:
So, the decision to offload arrivals to 18L, which is one of two runways available for departures, has to be made hours in advance, when many of these arrivals are still on the ground at their departure points.

If there are too many inbounds for the east side plus 13R to handle, using 18L for arrivals essentially cuts the departure rate in half. Not the 18L departure rate, but the airport departure rate.

Discussions are had and plans made months ahead of time for long term closures like this, with all stakeholders (FAA/ATC, Airlines, and the airport) in order to minimize delays and maximize capacity. American would rather blame delays on ATC than adjust their schedule to something more realistic for the conditions, but they are the ones who decided, much more so than ATC personnel, what the runway use plan would be.


Excellent information, thanks. Funny, my thoughts didn't even think about that from a Traffic Management side of things and now I have verified why I did not become a TMC!! :checkmark:
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
OKCDCA
Topic Author
Posts: 293
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Re: DFW Runway Operations

Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:08 am

atcdan wrote:
So, the decision to offload arrivals to 18L, which is one of two runways available for departures, has to be made hours in advance, when many of these arrivals are still on the ground at their departure points.

If there are too many inbounds for the east side plus 13R to handle, using 18L for arrivals essentially cuts the departure rate in half. Not the 18L departure rate, but the airport departure rate.

Discussions are had and plans made months ahead of time for long term closures like this, with all stakeholders (FAA/ATC, Airlines, and the airport) in order to minimize delays and maximize capacity. American would rather blame delays on ATC than adjust their schedule to something more realistic for the conditions, but they are the ones who decided, much more so than ATC personnel, what the runway use plan would be.

Thank you for the information, that is helpful. Who then determines how one or two aircraft from time to time are allowed to land on that runway? Is that a conversation between the controllers or can an approach controller assign that runway on his/her own if they feel things are stacking up?
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4348
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:18 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
Who then determines how one or two aircraft from time to time are allowed to land on that runway? Is that a conversation between the controllers or can an approach controller assign that runway on his/her own if they feel things are stacking up?


That would most likely be a conversation between the TRACON and Tower Supervisors/Traffic Management Coordinator (TMC) of who and when to use the runway for any arrivals.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15048
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:21 pm

atcdan wrote:
So, the decision to offload arrivals to 18L, which is one of two runways available for departures, has to be made hours in advance, when many of these arrivals are still on the ground at their departure points.

If there are too many inbounds for the east side plus 13R to handle, using 18L for arrivals essentially cuts the departure rate in half. Not the 18L departure rate, but the airport departure rate.

Discussions are had and plans made months ahead of time for long term closures like this, with all stakeholders (FAA/ATC, Airlines, and the airport) in order to minimize delays and maximize capacity. American would rather blame delays on ATC than adjust their schedule to something more realistic for the conditions, but they are the ones who decided, much more so than ATC personnel, what the runway use plan would be.


Assuming winds do not preclude use of the crosswind runways, can't they land 13R/18L/17L and depart 17C and 13L? It would affect the departure rate because the 13L departures would need to be coordinated with the 17L arrivals but it should allow a lot more than half of the usual departure rate.
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atcdan
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:24 am

IAHFLYR wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
Who then determines how one or two aircraft from time to time are allowed to land on that runway? Is that a conversation between the controllers or can an approach controller assign that runway on his/her own if they feel things are stacking up?


That would most likely be a conversation between the TRACON and Tower Supervisors/Traffic Management Coordinator (TMC) of who and when to use the runway for any arrivals.


Usually just a request from the approach to the local controller. I haven’t worked there in a few years but we would almost always approve that from the tower side.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
atcdan
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:26 am

Cubsrule wrote:
atcdan wrote:
So, the decision to offload arrivals to 18L, which is one of two runways available for departures, has to be made hours in advance, when many of these arrivals are still on the ground at their departure points.

If there are too many inbounds for the east side plus 13R to handle, using 18L for arrivals essentially cuts the departure rate in half. Not the 18L departure rate, but the airport departure rate.

Discussions are had and plans made months ahead of time for long term closures like this, with all stakeholders (FAA/ATC, Airlines, and the airport) in order to minimize delays and maximize capacity. American would rather blame delays on ATC than adjust their schedule to something more realistic for the conditions, but they are the ones who decided, much more so than ATC personnel, what the runway use plan would be.


Assuming winds do not preclude use of the crosswind runways, can't they land 13R/18L/17L and depart 17C and 13L? It would affect the departure rate because the 13L departures would need to be coordinated with the 17L arrivals but it should allow a lot more than half of the usual departure rate.


Sounds great except 13L IFR departures do not have legal separation with DAL 13R approaches.

Which is why 13L is almost never used.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15048
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:17 am

atcdan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
atcdan wrote:
So, the decision to offload arrivals to 18L, which is one of two runways available for departures, has to be made hours in advance, when many of these arrivals are still on the ground at their departure points.

If there are too many inbounds for the east side plus 13R to handle, using 18L for arrivals essentially cuts the departure rate in half. Not the 18L departure rate, but the airport departure rate.

Discussions are had and plans made months ahead of time for long term closures like this, with all stakeholders (FAA/ATC, Airlines, and the airport) in order to minimize delays and maximize capacity. American would rather blame delays on ATC than adjust their schedule to something more realistic for the conditions, but they are the ones who decided, much more so than ATC personnel, what the runway use plan would be.


Assuming winds do not preclude use of the crosswind runways, can't they land 13R/18L/17L and depart 17C and 13L? It would affect the departure rate because the 13L departures would need to be coordinated with the 17L arrivals but it should allow a lot more than half of the usual departure rate.


Sounds great except 13L IFR departures do not have legal separation with DAL 13R approaches.

Which is why 13L is almost never used.


Fair. How about arriving 13R/18L/17C and departing 17R/17L?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2069
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:06 am

I think the pilots would scream murder if they had to taxi to 17L for takeoff. It’s hard enough trying to cross 17C

I’ve only departed 13L in a turboprop and it was always a radar vector to 2000ft.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4348
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:48 pm

atcdan wrote:
Usually just a request from the approach to the local controller. I haven’t worked there in a few years but we would almost always approve that from the tower side.


Different strokes for different joints. If I'd have called local without going through either the TMC or Sup before I'd have ended up in the chapel yet again for involving only 2 people rather than 5 or 6. The few times I did just call local and not get caught it was only due to the fact someone else had distracted the TMC or Sup. :banghead:
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
atcdan
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:47 am

Cubsrule wrote:
atcdan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Assuming winds do not preclude use of the crosswind runways, can't they land 13R/18L/17L and depart 17C and 13L? It would affect the departure rate because the 13L departures would need to be coordinated with the 17L arrivals but it should allow a lot more than half of the usual departure rate.


Sounds great except 13L IFR departures do not have legal separation with DAL 13R approaches.

Which is why 13L is almost never used.


Fair. How about arriving 13R/18L/17C and departing 17R/17L?


Why not just switch 18L and 17L in your sequence? That’s what they do now, without as another poster mentioned a 3 mile taxi from terminal B/D to 17L. Just makes no sense.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15048
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:52 am

atcdan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
atcdan wrote:

Sounds great except 13L IFR departures do not have legal separation with DAL 13R approaches.

Which is why 13L is almost never used.


Fair. How about arriving 13R/18L/17C and departing 17R/17L?


Why not just switch 18L and 17L in your sequence? That’s what they do now, without as another poster mentioned a 3 mile taxi from terminal B/D to 17L. Just makes no sense.


Much better. It’s hard for me to believe that even down a runway there’s a calm-wind scenario that would cut the departure rate by half, especially during COVID.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
atcdan
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:09 am

Cubsrule wrote:
atcdan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Fair. How about arriving 13R/18L/17C and departing 17R/17L?


Why not just switch 18L and 17L in your sequence? That’s what they do now, without as another poster mentioned a 3 mile taxi from terminal B/D to 17L. Just makes no sense.


Much better. It’s hard for me to believe that even down a runway there’s a calm-wind scenario that would cut the departure rate by half, especially during COVID.



Normally DFW lands the three parallels 18R, 17C, 17L ( or their north flow reciprocal runways) with overflow arrivals going to 13R or 31R depending on the flow. That means they are landing 4 runways at max capacity. That lends to an arrival rate of about 125 an hour in VFR conditions.

Departures are off 18L and 17R, which leads to an optimal departure rate of 90 an hour. Departing 2 runways.

If the airport did as the OP suggested, and landed more planes on 18L, you’re still able to use 4 runways for arrival, but only have 1 for departure since you lose the capacity to depart 18L except to hit holes between both 18L and 13R arrivals.

Basically to answer the OP’s question, the users decided that it’s better to load up 13R, still land 3 runways instead of 4, keeping 2 runways for departure, which maximizes the efficiency of the airport.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 15048
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: DFW Runway Operations

Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:13 am

atcdan wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
atcdan wrote:

Why not just switch 18L and 17L in your sequence? That’s what they do now, without as another poster mentioned a 3 mile taxi from terminal B/D to 17L. Just makes no sense.


Much better. It’s hard for me to believe that even down a runway there’s a calm-wind scenario that would cut the departure rate by half, especially during COVID.



Normally DFW lands the three parallels 18R, 17C, 17L ( or their north flow reciprocal runways) with overflow arrivals going to 13R or 31R depending on the flow. That means they are landing 4 runways at max capacity. That lends to an arrival rate of about 125 an hour in VFR conditions.

Departures are off 18L and 17R, which leads to an optimal departure rate of 90 an hour. Departing 2 runways.

If the airport did as the OP suggested, and landed more planes on 18L, you’re still able to use 4 runways for arrival, but only have 1 for departure since you lose the capacity to depart 18L except to hit holes between both 18L and 13R arrivals.

Basically to answer the OP’s question, the users decided that it’s better to load up 13R, still land 3 runways instead of 4, keeping 2 runways for departure, which maximizes the efficiency of the airport.


What are the maximum arrival and departure rates DFW needs these days?
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