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PhilipBass
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Which planes run out of engine hours first

Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:35 pm

Are there any particular smaller planes under 80 seats which run out of hours on their engines long before the airframe is due to be scrapped.
Of course you could replace/refurb the engines but the engines are expensive to the point that the airframe will go to the scrapper rather than investing in a new engine.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:03 pm

I'm not sure of the thrust of your question (pardon the pun) but in my experience its usually the opposite.

For example, on King Air 200/1900/King Air 350s, the PT-6s, even with programs like MORE, will time out far before the fuselage.

There are lots of 1970s/1980s vintage 200s on the market with dated but decent interiors, compliant avionics, decent paint at pretty low prices due to the fact the aircraft is at a weird point where the residual value of the aircraft is really below the value point to upgrade with new/OH motors.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:28 am

The only time I've ever seen a new engine on an aircraft is when it was delivered.

We pull engines all the time, way before the airframe is even close to going away. When the time comes to scrap an airframe, the engines will be replaced with high time engines that are no longer economical to overhaul, or the engines are pulled at the boneyard.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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battlegroup62
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:28 am

fr8mech wrote:
The only time I've ever seen a new engine on an aircraft is when it was delivered.

We pull engines all the time, way before the airframe is even close to going away. When the time comes to scrap an airframe, the engines will be replaced with high time engines that are no longer economical to overhaul, or the engines are pulled at the boneyard.


Same. I've never seen the likes of a CRJ or E-jet engine make it to a major part life limit before it comes off for some other reason. Most of the time it's due to FOD damage in the HP section or getting CANNED because all the spares are still in the engine shop getting overhauled. For the CF-34 family they average 15k hours on wing, doing the math for the fuselage limits its about 4-6 engines if the fuselage is used to the fullest.
We have to keep planes airworthy. That doesn't mean they have to fly.
 
PhilipBass
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:55 pm

Thanks.
OK. So a CRJ is a likely candidate where it is due it's N.th expensive engine overhaul which is enough to send it to a scrapper.
Any turboprops similar to that? Is there a time on an ATR 42 or Q300/Q400 where the cost of investing in an engine overhaul isn't economically justifiable for an old airframe?
 
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CARST
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:25 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
Thanks.
OK. So a CRJ is a likely candidate where it is due it's N.th expensive engine overhaul which is enough to send it to a scrapper.
Any turboprops similar to that? Is there a time on an ATR 42 or Q300/Q400 where the cost of investing in an engine overhaul isn't economically justifiable for an old airframe?


I think we can assume that it is the same for the turboprop aircraft you mentioned, as it is for the KingAirs or CRJ/ERJs/E-Jets mentioned above. And for all other aircraft.

But just because you mention the Q300 (and as well the Q100/Q200), when we talk aircraft that don't get manufactured anymore, it might be worth investing in extending the airframe's hours and cycles and put new engines on it, simply because there is no alternative to these old airframes or because new aircraft are even more expensive than overhauling the old airframe and putting new engines on it.
 
unimproved
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:41 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
Thanks.
OK. So a CRJ is a likely candidate where it is due it's N.th expensive engine overhaul which is enough to send it to a scrapper.
Any turboprops similar to that? Is there a time on an ATR 42 or Q300/Q400 where the cost of investing in an engine overhaul isn't economically justifiable for an old airframe?

It's not like a car where it's considered a single "part" that gets worked on. The things that write off frames are almost always damage or nearing heavy maintenance checks. Engines are tracked unrelated to the wing they might currently reside under.

When covid first hit we were playing musical chairs with engines for weeks, just to move the ones with nearing maintenence to the frames going into storage.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:57 pm

unimproved wrote:
Engines are tracked unrelated to the wing they might currently reside under.

When covid first hit we were playing musical chairs with engines for weeks, just to move the ones with nearing maintenence to the frames going into storage.


Engines are no more “attached” to an airframe, than the wheels assemblies are. They are replaced when it circumstances dictate they be replaced.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:40 pm

PhilipBass wrote:
Thanks.
So a CRJ is a likely candidate where it is due it's N.th expensive engine overhaul which is enough to send it to a scrapper.


I just read that closer...the airframe is NOT due its engine overhaul, the engine is due the overhaul. The engine gets pulled and a serviceable one is installed in its place.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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bigb
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:44 pm

The outbord engines on the 747 or A380 most likely.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Sat May 01, 2021 2:05 am

fr8mech wrote:
unimproved wrote:
Engines are tracked unrelated to the wing they might currently reside under.

When covid first hit we were playing musical chairs with engines for weeks, just to move the ones with nearing maintenence to the frames going into storage.


Engines are no more “attached” to an airframe, than the wheels assemblies are. They are replaced when it circumstances dictate they be replaced.

Exactly. They are more durable than before, but the maintenance budget is expensive.

I wonder how insane the overhaul market will be on the rebound... There will be a period where there are insufficient engines available.

Lightsaber
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extender
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Sat May 01, 2021 1:16 pm

GE parts are getting pricier. We deal with the CF6-50, -80A and -80C, and a lot of parts for the engine mounts are becoming scarce with long lead times. The shop visits for the CF-34 are not cheap.
 
CRJockey
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Sat May 01, 2021 9:29 pm

bigb wrote:
The outbord engines on the 747 or A380 most likely.


What?
 
battlegroup62
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Sun May 02, 2021 6:27 am

lightsaber wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
unimproved wrote:
Engines are tracked unrelated to the wing they might currently reside under.

When covid first hit we were playing musical chairs with engines for weeks, just to move the ones with nearing maintenance to the frames going into storage.


Engines are no more “attached” to an airframe, than the wheels assemblies are. They are replaced when it circumstances dictate they be replaced.

Exactly. They are more durable than before, but the maintenance budget is expensive.

I wonder how insane the overhaul market will be on the rebound... There will be a period where there are insufficient engines available.

Lightsaber


I can tell you for aircraft powered by the cf-34 family, replacement fan blades, and other rotable parts are hard to keep on hand due to a backlog at the overhaul facilities. The aircraft that use them had been working hard picking up some of the slack of the parked larger aircraft..
We have to keep planes airworthy. That doesn't mean they have to fly.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Sun May 09, 2021 8:29 pm

CRJockey wrote:
bigb wrote:
The outbord engines on the 747 or A380 most likely.


What?


Bigb is referring to the FOD damage outboard engines are susceptible to on quads, especially for the A380 which is known to suck up all sorts of crap from runway and apron edges.

The CF34 on the Ejet fleet as others have mentioned has a relatively low time on wing before it needs egt restoration. Flybe, Jetblue and AC were quite vociferous in their complaints.

Trent 500, 900 and 1000 have higher than average removal rates too.

Most newer engines will need to be removed before 10k cycles either for life limited parts or egt deterioration.
 
bigb
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Sun May 09, 2021 8:49 pm

CRJockey wrote:
bigb wrote:
The outbord engines on the 747 or A380 most likely.


What?


Means that the outboard engines on quad jets don’t last as long since they tend to suck more debris and foreign objects due to hanging off on the side of the taxiways/runways.
 
rbretas
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Mon May 10, 2021 9:00 am

Chaostheory wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
bigb wrote:
The outbord engines on the 747 or A380 most likely.


What?


Bigb is referring to the FOD damage outboard engines are susceptible to on quads, especially for the A380 which is known to suck up all sorts of crap from runway and apron edges.

The CF34 on the Ejet fleet as others have mentioned has a relatively low time on wing before it needs egt restoration. Flybe, Jetblue and AC were quite vociferous in their complaints.

Trent 500, 900 and 1000 have higher than average removal rates too.

Most newer engines will need to be removed before 10k cycles either for life limited parts or egt deterioration.


Sorry, but what does EGT means? Exhaust gas temperature? Do you mean restoring the EGT margins?
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Which planes run out of engine hours first

Mon May 10, 2021 8:00 pm

Yes, EGT is Exhaust Gas Temp. It's a parameter that can gauge the health of an engine. Each engine model has a max EGT limit for normal operation. On a test run the EGT is recorded at max power. The engine has to make full max rated power with an EGT temp lower than max temp. If it doesn't then the engine needs a shop visit. A whole lot of expensive parts get replaced so the engine can make full power at less than max EGT.

I've never heard it called EGT restoration, but I see the logic. You are 'adding' EGT room above max power setting. What you are really doing is making the engine more efficient again so it runs cooler at max power.

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