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YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:44 pm

I stumbled across this video which was uploaded on 2nd April 2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P49OxVqOvec

Fast forward to 0:30. Caption says, "This A320 captain has to take over control to avoid a hard landing during base training".

Anyone have any further information on this?
 
shamrock137
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:14 pm

Its a training flight. I guess you could say it was a little exaggerated on the throttle inputs, but its the job of the instructor to sometimes let the student go further with their mistakes then they would if it was a revenue flight with passengers. This series on EasyJet provides a little more context to how these flights work. Interestingly, this is really a European thing, in the US there are no training flights for new pilots at the airlines outside of the simulator.

https://youtu.be/NIcPZfvZUmU?t=1300
 
vikkyvik
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:58 pm

I'm not sure the thrust lever change override really did much - looks and sounds like the airplane contacted the runway about a second later, just when you can hear the engines start spooling up.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:18 am

As vikkyvik says, a bit late to make a difference in the actual touchdown. But I suppose the captain wanted to take control and go around, while also clearly indicating that he was in control. Just saying, "I have control," might not get through to a very "focused" student immediately.

As shamrock137 says, in base training, the trainer might let the students go a bit further into the woods than otherwise. As long as safety is maintained, it's all good. Those captains tend to be a paragon of cool.

You can just hear "priority..." at the end of the clip. That would be the captain holding the takeover button on the stick just to be extra sure there are no inputs from the right seater.

These things happen in base training. It is training and students aren't expected to be perfect. If nothing else, there is a bit of nervousness if you haven't flown a jet before. My heart rate was well above resting, for sure. The A330 is about one hundred times heavier than the next heaviest aircraft I have flown, a light twin. :lol:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:34 am

Do a week of “base training” with LTs in a C-5– 50 or 60 touch and goes!
 
e38
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:50 am

In the training environment, we refer to this as "misjudging the flare," and while it is common for this to happen to pilots who have not previously flown the aircraft, it occasionally happens to experienced pilots as well, although perhaps not quite to the extent as shown in the video.

As an instructor, you try to be constantly aware of the potential for this to happen, and you remain prepared to intervene, as appropriate. But sometimes, as depicted in the video, it happens very quickly, resulting in a firm touchdown.

Starlionblue (above) pointed out the significance of the "priority left" annunciation; I always try to follow up--or precede--by clearly and loudly stating, "I have the aircraft;" that is standard at my operator to establish positive transfer of aircraft control. I also try to be somewhat smoother with movement of the thrust levers. shamrock137 (above) made reference to "a little exaggerated on the throttle inputs," (thrust levers). I agree. In a situation such as this, while it is important to get the thrust levers to the TOGA detent quickly, I'm not convinced that shoving them as fast as possible against the forward stops will result in the thrust increasing faster than had they been advanced rapidly, yet smoothly.

e38
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:03 am

e38 wrote:
In the training environment, we refer to this as "misjudging the flare," and while it is common for this to happen to pilots who have not previously flown the aircraft, it occasionally happens to experienced pilots as well, although perhaps not quite to the extent as shown in the video.

As an instructor, you try to be constantly aware of the potential for this to happen, and you remain prepared to intervene, as appropriate. But sometimes, as depicted in the video, it happens very quickly, resulting in a firm touchdown.

Starlionblue (above) pointed out the significance of the "priority left" annunciation; I always try to follow up--or precede--by clearly and loudly stating, "I have the aircraft;" that is standard at my operator to establish positive transfer of aircraft control. I also try to be somewhat smoother with movement of the thrust levers. shamrock137 (above) made reference to "a little exaggerated on the throttle inputs," (thrust levers). I agree. In a situation such as this, while it is important to get the thrust levers to the TOGA detent quickly, I'm not convinced that shoving them as fast as possible against the forward stops will result in the thrust increasing faster than had they been advanced rapidly, yet smoothly.

e38


The captain could be saying "I have control" or equivalent and we just can't hear it because they're wearing headsets. But in that situation it might be good to say it loudly enough that it carries.

As you say, the engines won't spool up nearly as quickly as that. :)

Of note is that the trainee retards the thrust levers rather abruptly. You can see that he does it right at the "thirty" call.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Do a week of “base training” with LTs in a C-5– 50 or 60 touch and goes!


Those were the days. I got all of three circuits. :cry:

To be fair, though, those three landings built confidence. I still had a lot to learn during line training but my heart wasn't racing on final anymore. Well, not much. ;)
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:19 am

My question is why aren't they using simulators in Europe?

The fidelity of modern full motion sims is so good that the lag is imperceptible. They work extraordinarily well for pilot training. Twice I've been on flights where it was the FO's first time actually flying the plane. Smooth as silk.
 
Flow2706
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
My question is why aren't they using simulators in Europe?

The fidelity of modern full motion sims is so good that the lag is imperceptible. They work extraordinarily well for pilot training. Twice I've been on flights where it was the FO's first time actually flying the plane. Smooth as silk.

The simulators are quite unrealistic regarding the actual flare/landing. The real aircraft handles noticeable different. During my base training I somehow screwed up the rotation during the touch and go...during the simulator training the sim was always set up at "normal" weights, but the base training was conducted on an A319 (while the simulator used was an A320 sim) and obviously the aircraft was very light. The instructor told me that the rotation rate used would probably have resulted in a tail strike on an A321 or even on an A320. Obviously I managed to get this issue figured out somehow...
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:30 am

Flow2706 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
My question is why aren't they using simulators in Europe?

The fidelity of modern full motion sims is so good that the lag is imperceptible. They work extraordinarily well for pilot training. Twice I've been on flights where it was the FO's first time actually flying the plane. Smooth as silk.

The simulators are quite unrealistic regarding the actual flare/landing. The real aircraft handles noticeable different. During my base training I somehow screwed up the rotation during the touch and go...during the simulator training the sim was always set up at "normal" weights, but the base training was conducted on an A319 (while the simulator used was an A320 sim) and obviously the aircraft was very light. The instructor told me that the rotation rate used would probably have resulted in a tail strike on an A321 or even on an A320. Obviously I managed to get this issue figured out somehow...


I was legitimately curious. Not sure why you took it any other way. But since the US doesn't seem have an issue with new pilots damaging the planes I would guess our way of doing things is working pretty well too. I would think it must be incredibly expensive to fly around an A319 with no passengers. Not to mention the premature aging by all those cycles.
 
Flow2706
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:38 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
My question is why aren't they using simulators in Europe?

The fidelity of modern full motion sims is so good that the lag is imperceptible. They work extraordinarily well for pilot training. Twice I've been on flights where it was the FO's first time actually flying the plane. Smooth as silk.

The simulators are quite unrealistic regarding the actual flare/landing. The real aircraft handles noticeable different. During my base training I somehow screwed up the rotation during the touch and go...during the simulator training the sim was always set up at "normal" weights, but the base training was conducted on an A319 (while the simulator used was an A320 sim) and obviously the aircraft was very light. The instructor told me that the rotation rate used would probably have resulted in a tail strike on an A321 or even on an A320. Obviously I managed to get this issue figured out somehow...


I was legitimately curious. Not sure why you took it any other way. But since the US doesn't seem have an issue with new pilots damaging the planes I would guess our way of doing things is working pretty well too. I would think it must be incredibly expensive to fly around an A319 with no passengers. Not to mention the premature aging by all those cycles.

I totally understand that you were just curious and I was not upset in any way, I only tried to answer your question. The price for the base training was 6000€/person so with 6 touch and goes it's 1000€ per pattern (I had to self-sponsor my type rating and base training back then). Flying around in jets burns money very quickly...
 
acecrackshot
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
My question is why aren't they using simulators in Europe?

The fidelity of modern full motion sims is so good that the lag is imperceptible. They work extraordinarily well for pilot training. Twice I've been on flights where it was the FO's first time actually flying the plane. Smooth as silk.

The simulators are quite unrealistic regarding the actual flare/landing. The real aircraft handles noticeable different. During my base training I somehow screwed up the rotation during the touch and go...during the simulator training the sim was always set up at "normal" weights, but the base training was conducted on an A319 (while the simulator used was an A320 sim) and obviously the aircraft was very light. The instructor told me that the rotation rate used would probably have resulted in a tail strike on an A321 or even on an A320. Obviously I managed to get this issue figured out somehow...


I was legitimately curious. Not sure why you took it any other way. But since the US doesn't seem have an issue with new pilots damaging the planes I would guess our way of doing things is working pretty well too. I would think it must be incredibly expensive to fly around an A319 with no passengers. Not to mention the premature aging by all those cycles.


Its probably a training requirement artifact stuck in the regs, or an insurance requirement. The Eurozone nations are far more risk averse in the training and transition environment versus the US, generally speaking. In the JAA realm, its easy to find 500 hour A320 pilots, where such a thing is regulatorily and functionally speaking extraordinarily uncommon in the US.

The current competitive minimums for an A320/737 new hire position in the US are 3-7k hours, with the vast majority of that being either jet strike aircraft or transport category aircraft. At the regional level, most regional pilots are coming from high cycle operations, and the training programs are far more attrition based than the majors, along with very experienced with transitioning people from light aircraft or increasingly helos to RJ sized aircraft. So, as they say, feedstock matters when it comes to training.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

I was legitimately curious. Not sure why you took it any other way. But since the US doesn't seem have an issue with new pilots damaging the planes I would guess our way of doing things is working pretty well too. I would think it must be incredibly expensive to fly around an A319 with no passengers. Not to mention the premature aging by all those cycles.


Another thing to add in the sim vs. aircraft would be to reiterate as previously noted, the landing differences between an unloaded 319 and overweight 321ceo can be pretty substantial. Not crazily so, and certainly in my experience manageable at the reasonable pilot skill level. In the US, I think every 320 operator with multiple 32x types uses the 320 as the "base" aircraft in the sim, and differences are learned on the line, hopefully with a line check airman.

There could be some potential (notice the double caveat) negative learning with experience in a live 319 not necessarily being applicable to a 321.
 
Woodreau
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:43 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
My question is why aren't they using simulators in Europe?

The fidelity of modern full motion sims is so good that the lag is imperceptible. They work extraordinarily well for pilot training. Twice I've been on flights where it was the FO's first time actually flying the plane. Smooth as silk.


there are simulators - Level C simulators - that are not certified for landings. Those types of simulators are rare these days. They were more commonplace “a long time ago.” You accomplish the items that can be accomplished in the simulator. landings are then done in the airplane.

the training flight thing is more commonplace in Europe and not that it doesn’t happen in the US but it’s virtually unheard of in the US these days.

I do remember “way back when” (2005) being loaded into a 1900 after the last flight of the day blocked into the outstation at 2330pm. Boarding the plane with the check airman and 3 other 200-250hr new hire FOs after we all did the preflight walk around with the check airman making sure we didn’t miss anything on the preflight walk around.

Then taking our seats as one by one we changed places in the FO seat to do our 3 landings and demonstrate circle to land. All because the 1900 sim we trained on wasn’t certified for landings and circle to land. then blocking in at 0430 and meeting the crew that was taking the plane out for the first revenue flight out of the outstation.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Civilian, I’ve always done my first landings “on the line’; all the bizjets are now Level D. Military still does “base training” and requires monthly landing currency which can be done in either the plane or sim. A-10 did everything in the plane solo, no two-seaters, no sim then. At EAL, in the mid-80s, new FOs had to do bounce drills, I did a few p, as a wrench, over at Grand Bahama Island or Tamiami.

Arranging base training for EU operators in bizjets was always an exercise—finding a plane, scheduling it within the time limits from last sim, sometimes crew was trained before their plane delivered, insurance requirements.
 
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zeke
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:18 am

shamrock137 wrote:
Interestingly, this is really a European thing, in the US there are no training flights for new pilots at the airlines outside of the simulator.


It is also common in asia, the pacific, and the military. We used to also do one missed approach and landing with an engine simulated inoperative, that requirement has been removed.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:24 pm

On almost all of the full flight simulators now the instructor can set the aircraft weight and center of gravity to what ever is desired for training within the aircraft limits. I cannot understand if you are going to be flying the aircraft at light weights for training why the instructor does not give you a few light weight with corresponding center of gravity settings for landings and takeoffs during your simulator training. The simulator manufacturer has to match flight test data from the aircraft manufacturer within very tight limits. The flight model comes from the aircraft manufacturer and is created using flight test data collected during the aircraft certification and is cleaned up to get rid of noise and other issues from flight test data.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:05 pm

There are other issues that can affect the pilot trainee in simulators during landing:
1) The visual resolution of simulator visual systems is not as good as the real world so it affects the landing flare because the pilot is used to seeing a better resolution picture while determining the point to start flaring the aircraft.
2) The radio aids (i.e. ILS, GLS, etc.) have to be aligned with the visual scene both horizontally and vertically for every approach so the pilot is on course and glide path properly when going visual on final approach. Some simulator visual scenes use a flat earth model for the whole airport at the highest elevation on the airport and some use the terrain values obtained from airport data.
3) the ground effects as the aircraft flares may be incorrect. The model used for that particular aircraft may not be accurate.
4) The visual approach aid may be changing approach angles displayed on approach.
 
Max Q
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:58 pm

e38 wrote:
In the training environment, we refer to this as "misjudging the flare," and while it is common for this to happen to pilots who have not previously flown the aircraft, it occasionally happens to experienced pilots as well, although perhaps not quite to the extent as shown in the video.

As an instructor, you try to be constantly aware of the potential for this to happen, and you remain prepared to intervene, as appropriate. But sometimes, as depicted in the video, it happens very quickly, resulting in a firm touchdown.

Starlionblue (above) pointed out the significance of the "priority left" annunciation; I always try to follow up--or precede--by clearly and loudly stating, "I have the aircraft;" that is standard at my operator to establish positive transfer of aircraft control. I also try to be somewhat smoother with movement of the thrust levers. shamrock137 (above) made reference to "a little exaggerated on the throttle inputs," (thrust levers). I agree. In a situation such as this, while it is important to get the thrust levers to the TOGA detent quickly, I'm not convinced that shoving them as fast as possible against the forward stops will result in the thrust increasing faster than had they been advanced rapidly, yet smoothly.

e38




Agree, no benefit in slamming the throttles forward like that, you can make rapid movements but still be smooth


And while he did leave the power increase too late at least he didn’t do make it worse by raising the nose, at the last moment, with a high sink rate close to the ground this usually results in just hitting the ground harder, not infrequently accompanied by a tail strike
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:41 am

CanukinUSA wrote:
There are other issues that can affect the pilot trainee in simulators during landing:
1) The visual resolution of simulator visual systems is not as good as the real world so it affects the landing flare because the pilot is used to seeing a better resolution picture while determining the point to start flaring the aircraft.
2) The radio aids (i.e. ILS, GLS, etc.) have to be aligned with the visual scene both horizontally and vertically for every approach so the pilot is on course and glide path properly when going visual on final approach. Some simulator visual scenes use a flat earth model for the whole airport at the highest elevation on the airport and some use the terrain values obtained from airport data.
3) the ground effects as the aircraft flares may be incorrect. The model used for that particular aircraft may not be accurate.
4) The visual approach aid may be changing approach angles displayed on approach.


The sim just feels a bit "off" sometimes. A bit more "predictable" than the real plane would be one way of putting it.


There's also the pucker factor. It's one thing to land a simulation. It's another when you're actually handling the aircraft. As I mentioned above, doing it without pax the first time builds confidence in a somewhat less stressful situation.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:05 am

Sims are just 1s and 0s, a perfect operation on a cadaver
 
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zeke
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:27 pm

CanukinUSA wrote:
On almost all of the full flight simulators now the instructor can set the aircraft weight and center of gravity to what ever is desired for training within the aircraft limits. I cannot understand if you are going to be flying the aircraft at light weights for training why the instructor does not give you a few light weight with corresponding center of gravity settings for landings and takeoffs during your simulator training. The simulator manufacturer has to match flight test data from the aircraft manufacturer within very tight limits. The flight model comes from the aircraft manufacturer and is created using flight test data collected during the aircraft certification and is cleaned up to get rid of noise and other issues from flight test data.


Base training is done first in the simulator and then the aircraft, the rule says the base training simulator session has to be within a very small amount of time to the aircraft. There is no company that builds simulators for every model, you cannot buy a 737-700 simulator for example, its a 737-800 simulator, they just play with it to make it seem like a 737-700. The A330 is based off the A330-200 not the A330-300, the A320 is A320-200, not A319 or A321, A350 off the A350-900, not -1000.

Often simulators will have minor differences to real aircraft as well, as different customer airlines can have different options from avionics, weights, to engines.
 
VSMUT
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:05 pm

At least for the types I fly, all simulators are complete garbage on the landing part. It's bad enough that you are looking out at a 2-dimension image, but the feel is completely wrong as well. In simulator sessions it ends up being more procedural training and somehow trying to end up parked near the runway. You can try to fight it, but you won't learn anything useful from it.
 
CanukinUSA
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:20 am

The simulator manufacturer that I worked for in a previous life would build the simulator for a particular tail number as agreed with the airline. They would also make the simulator for different models like the 737-700 and 737-800, etc. if the flight deck was similar using a different aero model and tail number if agreed. The Engineering staff would just load the aero model for the version of the 737 desired for a training session and change some panels on the overhead panel typically if required. All the flight models that would be used would have to be approved by the regulator separately when the simulator is checked by the regulator to approve it for training to do that.
In Flight Test at the aircraft manufacturer, we fly low passes over the runway during testing to try and get good ground effect data and to determine the actual aircraft performance in ground effect to create ground effect models for simulation.
 
Seat0F
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:33 pm

The reason these FOs are doing base training in the aircraft is because they do not have the required experience to do zero-flight-time or ZFT base training in a simulator. Probably 250 hour newbies straight out of flight school.

The graphics in simulators are somewhat pants compared to real life. The human eye picks up on different cues etc in real life that cannot be replicated in a simulator. That’s why at such low experience levels the authorities insist on actual base training in the real jet.

I think the rate of descent starts to increase below 50’ in that video, its something quite common in extremely low hours pilots (target fixation on the TDZ rather than looking towards the end of the runway). The Captain took over and immediately put the thrust levers into the TOGA gate asap. You dont need to be smooth on the Airbus thrust levers, quite the opposite really. Think of it more as a switch than the thrust levers on a Boeing. The TOGA gate also changes the FD commands. Even rescuing it at 30’ that was a hard touchdown. If the Captain hadn’t taken over when he did that could have caused some serious damage.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:36 am

Seat0F wrote:
The reason these FOs are doing base training in the aircraft is because they do not have the required experience to do zero-flight-time or ZFT base training in a simulator. Probably 250 hour newbies straight out of flight school.

The graphics in simulators are somewhat pants compared to real life. The human eye picks up on different cues etc in real life that cannot be replicated in a simulator. That’s why at such low experience levels the authorities insist on actual base training in the real jet.

I think the rate of descent starts to increase below 50’ in that video, its something quite common in extremely low hours pilots (target fixation on the TDZ rather than looking towards the end of the runway). The Captain took over and immediately put the thrust levers into the TOGA gate asap. You dont need to be smooth on the Airbus thrust levers, quite the opposite really. Think of it more as a switch than the thrust levers on a Boeing. The TOGA gate also changes the FD commands. Even rescuing it at 30’ that was a hard touchdown. If the Captain hadn’t taken over when he did that could have caused some serious damage.


I can only speak for my operator but everyone from the low-hour cadets to those with significant experience in other heavy jets does base training. It's a regulatory requirement here.

I suppose those with significant jet time might not really need I don't make the rules. :)

You're absolutely right about the graphics being somewhat pants. Even in our newest sims, which have pretty awesome graphics, depth perception isn't quite like the real world. No matter the perspective tricks, it is still a 3D image projected on a 2D surface. All good for most training but landings are very dependent on depth perception and can feel a bit off.
 
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zeke
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Re: YouTube Video - Late Throttle Override. Any further information?

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:44 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
I can only speak for my operator but everyone from the low-hour cadets to those with significant experience in other heavy jets does base training. It's a regulatory requirement here..


And base training has to be repeated if they haven't flown for 2 years, regardless of experience.

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