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FlyingViking
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Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:32 pm

Back in the 1980's I remember there was a bit of controversy regarding the desire of airlines to deactivate the over wing exit's on the 747-100/200. I never realized that indeed this was approved until I came across a few pictures here on Airliners.net. There is a picture of British Airways G-AWNE showing the door deactivated.

Was British Airways the only airline to do this, or did other airlines follow suit? How long did this last?
 
trex8
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:43 pm

BA,KL, CX at least
viewtopic.php?t=745855
 
FlyingViking
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:56 pm

trex8 wrote:
BA,KL, CX at least
viewtopic.php?t=745855


Thanks for the link. Unsuccessfully tried the search function.
 
trex8
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:22 am

FlyingViking wrote:
trex8 wrote:
BA,KL, CX at least
viewtopic.php?t=745855


Thanks for the link. Unsuccessfully tried the search function.

The sites search function is hopeless, Google is your friend :D
 
69bug
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:47 am

Number of emergency exits available will determine the number of pax allowed. I would imagine BA and CX had low-density seating but not too sure about KL... but I was only around when they flew the -300s.

Alitalia had a 17 (or wwas it 15?) pallet combi and if I am not mistaken doors 3/4/5 L and R were deactivated.

bug

edit.. just asked my buddy and he said that they were 13 pallet combis.... my bad but its been 3o-something years ago!
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:15 am

69bug wrote:
Number of emergency exits available will determine the number of pax allowed. I would imagine BA and CX had low-density seating but not too sure about KL... but I was only around when they flew the -300s.

KLM’s -300s also had the 3 L/R doors deactivated.

I recall that you are right. It was a lot of functions .... the main being the high percentage of premium cabins resulting in a low cabin density. Also, it was allowed in the -100 to -300, but not the -400.
If you respond with a two page answer, obviously pre-prepared, I’m not going to bother reading it. Odds are, no one else is either!
 
trex8
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:16 am

IIRC they were 9 across seating too in those days, so never close to the max capacity. I was on a BA one once, but didnt sit close to the blocked off doors.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:29 am

trex8 wrote:
IIRC they were 9 across seating too in those days, so never close to the max capacity. I was on a BA one once, but didnt sit close to the blocked off doors.

That’s what I thought as well. But when looking at the historic seating charts on the departed flights website, it shows the BA, CX and KL versions at 10 abreast.

One KL version even had an all Y main deck with 432 seats. (Non-Combi).
If you respond with a two page answer, obviously pre-prepared, I’m not going to bother reading it. Odds are, no one else is either!
 
edina
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:07 am

At BA all -100/200 "Classics" were 8 main deck doors with the exception being the 4 200's based at LGW & were known as the "10 door variant" (!!) - these were used on LGW-Caribbean, MCO & SEZ/MRU, and had Club World cradle seats in A & B zone with economy on the upper deck & aft of door 2.
Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
 
Dufo
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:47 am

L3/R3 are only usable as secondary emergency exits during ditching and must not be opened during normal operations as they cannot be closed after refueling (but they can be opened..).
So it is understandable why some operators would want them disabled.
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:56 am

From KLM plane fact, dd 17 september 1984

The maximum amount of passengers which can be carried on board of the 747 does not require more than 8 doors in the main cabin.
For this reason the FAA has approved de-activation of doors 13 and 23 except on combi aircraft in the 12-pallet configuration. This is due to insufficient exits available in case of a taildown on ground emergency. Once the doors have been de-activated, they will no longer be noticeable from the inside.
The project includes de-activation of the door mechanism, removal of ramp and slide, removal of ditching and manual inflation handle and all other emergency equipment in the door area, removal of cabin attendants panel and interphone, atdoors 13 and 23, etc. Relevant Aircaft Operation Manual Volume II pages in Amendment no. 181 show revised evacuation procedures, location of emergency equipment and rows and seats to be blocked in case of a departure with an unserviceable exit.
The first aircraft to be modified will be 747-306M, N4548M , which can be expected in service as from Sept 24, 1984. The last modified aircraft will be ready in April 1985.
De-activation of the doors has made it possible to add 8 chairs; 4 left and 4 right in the door area .
Weight saving is approx. 100 kg. The aircraft briefing card will state the de-activation of the doors until all aircraft have been modified.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:11 am

BA, KL, CX and TG deactivated door 3. However, TG changed their minds soon after and re-activated door 3.
 
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:13 am

trex8 wrote:
IIRC they were 9 across seating too in those days, so never close to the max capacity. I was on a BA one once, but didnt sit close to the blocked off doors.

When door 3 was deactivated everybody was 10 across- I think the only holdouts in the 80's were SA & SR.
 
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:16 am

69bug wrote:
Number of emergency exits available will determine the number of pax allowed. I would imagine BA and CX had low-density seating but not too sure about KL... but I was only around when they flew the -300s.

Alitalia had a 17 (or wwas it 15?) pallet combi and if I am not mistaken doors 3/4/5 L and R were deactivated.

bug

edit.. just asked my buddy and he said that they were 13 pallet combis.... my bad but its been 3o-something years ago!

The large pallet combi variant was flown by AZ, KL and UT. Doors 4 & 5 were behind the wall separating pax from cargo- overwing door 3 was operational. I flew SIN-SYD on the AZ version with only 30 pax or so- it was fun!
 
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Wildlander
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:49 am

IIRC the door 3 deactivation authorisation ended (or was reversed) because of the "60 foot" rule, requiring no two exit pairs to be more than 60 apart. Some if not all aircraft had the doors 3 reactivated. Airbus attempted to challenge this with the A340-600 (something like 72 feet if no overwing exits) but failed to convince the AAs and had to install overwing exits in all customer aircraft.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:09 am

Wildlander wrote:
IIRC the door 3 deactivation authorisation ended (or was reversed) because of the "60 foot" rule, requiring no two exit pairs to be more than 60 apart. Some if not all aircraft had the doors 3 reactivated. Airbus attempted to challenge this with the A340-600 (something like 72 feet if no overwing exits) but failed to convince the AAs and had to install overwing exits in all customer aircraft.

Yes. Another fun fact about the rule is the production L-1011-500 fails it. Existing L-1011-500’s on the registry were grandfathered in but when ATA acquired secondhand planes they had to retrofit a new pair of exits to make the plane legal.
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:07 pm

Wildlander wrote:
IIRC the door 3 deactivation authorisation ended (or was reversed) because of the "60 foot" rule, requiring no two exit pairs to be more than 60 apart. Some if not all aircraft had the doors 3 reactivated. Airbus attempted to challenge this with the A340-600 (something like 72 feet if no overwing exits) but failed to convince the AAs and had to install overwing exits in all customer aircraft.


I don’t think any of them were ever reactivated on the 747 by the airlines that deactivated them (BA/CX/KL) but some were maybe done by airlines that later operated them. In the same way as the L1011-500s, they were grandfathered by the regulations as long as they were with their original operators.

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
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Crosswind
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:51 pm

Ex BA 747-236B in 2002 with Door 3 deactivated.

Same aircraft following year with exit activated;


One point to note is that a few BA 747-200s didn’t have Door 3 deactivated as they were in a higher-density Gatwick layout. (G-BDXD/E/F/G)
 
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Re: Boeing 747 over wing exit's deactivated (1980's)

Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:48 am

Crosswind wrote:
Wildlander wrote:
IIRC the door 3 deactivation authorisation ended (or was reversed) because of the "60 foot" rule, requiring no two exit pairs to be more than 60 apart. Some if not all aircraft had the doors 3 reactivated. Airbus attempted to challenge this with the A340-600 (something like 72 feet if no overwing exits) but failed to convince the AAs and had to install overwing exits in all customer aircraft.


I don’t think any of them were ever reactivated on the 747 by the airlines that deactivated them (BA/CX/KL) but some were maybe done by airlines that later operated them. In the same way as the L1011-500s, they were grandfathered by the regulations as long as they were with their original operators.

Regards
CROSSWIND

It was stated further upthread that TG deactivated door 3 and then reactivated the doors.

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