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Is it possible to access the cargo compartment from the passenger compartment? Guess so?

I have seen people gaining access to the cargo compartment from the passenger compartment in MANY movies.

So I wonder.....

Yes you can, on most widebodies.

Depending on container positioning though, it wouldn't be useful for really anything.

It looks nothing like the movies and is definitely a place you couldn't sneak down to.

Yes, on some aircraft you can. I have seen videos of pilots crawling through the floor hatch in the A350 into the avionics compartment, and from there into the cargo hold. I think I've seen the same for an A330. ATRs have direct access to both cargo holds, unless it is one of the rare examples fitted with a forward entry door, in which case the forward hold is only accessible from outside.

Was there a door/hatch to access the cargo hold via the lower galleys of the older 747s & L-1011's ?

Read somewhere that IL-86 was designed in such a way that the passengers could board the cargo hold first, place their own bags in there and then climb up into the main cabin to occupy their seats. Apparently, this was popular in the erstwhile USSR.

DIJKKIJK wrote:

Read somewhere that IL-86 was designed in such a way that the passengers could board the cargo hold first, place their own bags in there and then climb up into the main cabin to occupy their seats. Apparently, this was popular in the erstwhile USSR.

also made for short, light build in stairs. And a place to leave (winter) coats....

best regards
Thomas

DIJKKIJK wrote:

Read somewhere that IL-86 was designed in such a way that the passengers could board the cargo hold first, place their own bags in there and then climb up into the main cabin to occupy their seats. Apparently, this was popular in the erstwhile USSR.

The Presidential Il-96 also has this feature. Not sure about the regular passenger Il-96s though.

DIJKKIJK wrote:

Read somewhere that IL-86 was designed in such a way that the passengers could board the cargo hold first, place their own bags in there and then climb up into the main cabin to occupy their seats. Apparently, this was popular in the erstwhile USSR.

Didn't Lockheed try to do this with the L-1011?

I've gone through the avionics hatch in the cockpit, into the avionics compartment, and into the forward hold.

Of course, once the cans are loaded, they would take up that space so they would block access.

You can't get from the forward hold to the rear hold because the wing box is in the way.

In other words, those movies are not realistic.

The E-4B has integrated airstairs through the forward cargo hold as well.

I doubt that it's actually used for cargo, though.

In some A340 it is possible to enter forward (through the E&E) and aft cargo (through the mobile crew rest) comparments during flight.

On Canadair regional jets you can access the aft cargo bin thru the aft lav. Though you need tools to remove the access panel to gain access to the cargo compartment.

Agent wrote:

In some A340 it is possible to enter forward (through the E&E) and aft cargo (through the mobile crew rest) comparments during flight.

Indeed. However, as I mentioned above the cargo hold is typically full of cans so it is a bit academic. In-flight, you'd basically open the door from the avionics compartment and see the side of the nearest can.

On a 777, you can access the forward cargo from the E&E compartment, which itself is accessed from a hatch in the floor in the first class galley. To open that hatch you need to be able to unlock it. The 787 has no such access.

Starlionblue wrote:

I've gone through the avionics hatch in the cockpit, into the avionics compartment, and into the forward hold.

Good morning!

Is it true that you can also escape from the avionics bay to the tarmac by opening another hatch that gives access to the nose gear bay?

Best regards,
Hendric

hitower3 wrote:

Is it true that you can also escape from the avionics bay to the tarmac by opening another hatch that gives access to the nose gear bay?

Best regards,
Hendric

No, not to the nose gear well, but directly out of the fuselage. At least on all the types of worked on. I've never seen access to the nose wheel well from the interior.

****Edit: It appears that the MD11, and presumably the DC10, does have an access door from from the avionics bay to the NWW...at least according to the AMM.

Strangely, I don't have an MD in the hangar today, so I can't go take a look.

Most, if not all, transport category aircraft have an exterior access door to the E&E compartment or avionics bay. Some have two.

I should add, that those access doors are all plug doors. You ain't going to open them while the aircraft is pressurized.

You must be thinking of the movie Commando

hitower3 wrote:

Starlionblue wrote:

I've gone through the avionics hatch in the cockpit, into the avionics compartment, and into the forward hold.

Good morning!

Is it true that you can also escape from the avionics bay to the tarmac by opening another hatch that gives access to the nose gear bay?

Best regards,
Hendric

Yes, there is an exterior door. However, as mentioned by fr8mech, the avionics bay door is not in the gear well. It's on the exterior.

On a widebody it is a bit of a drop. If you need to get out in a hurry, cockpit windows or escape hatch are the way to go. They at least have escape ropes.


Pedantic side note: It isn't "the tarmac". Surfaces on which aircraft move are apron/ramp, taxiway and runway. In some cases, the material is tarmac, but that isn't a term that is used in the industry.

Lpbri wrote:

You must be thinking of the movie Commando

‘Please don’t wake my friend, he’s dead tired’

fr8mech wrote:

****Edit: It appears that the MD11, and presumably the DC10, does have an access door from from the avionics bay to the NWW...at least according to the AMM.

Strangely, I don't have an MD in the hangar today, so I can't go take a look.

This door does exist and it's easy access to the aircraft (when the locking pin is not installed) without the need of any stairs or power... if you're slim and flexible enough to fit around the avionics rack.
There's that urban legend that back in the days of the DC10 one brave flight engineer went down through the E&E and out that door in flight, to pull the gear pin of the nose landing gear which has been forgotten, to prevent an inflight return. I don't know if it's true, but it's definitely possible. You'd have to walk over the forward gear doors though and all that's holding them up are some ball bearings in the manual door release mechanism of the door drive link.

Horstroad wrote:

You'd have to walk over the forward gear doors though and all that's holding them up are some ball bearings in the manual door release mechanism of the door drive link.

It’s possible that a brave (read: not smart) pilot did this. Sometimes people don’t realize how close they come to serious injury/death.

A Lufthansa A340 crew actually tried this, but I don't know what actually ended up happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fs9HcdhUFI

Horstroad wrote:

You'd have to walk over the forward gear doors though and all that's holding them up are some ball bearings in the manual door release mechanism of the door drive link.

Probably a not so insignificant wind pressure as well.

The A340 has an integrated foldable ladder to access the aircraft from outside.
Here is a training video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKrHO6a04Cw

Lukas757 wrote:

The A340 has an integrated foldable ladder to access the aircraft from outside.

The B747 has one also. A little simpler than that contraption. I want to say our A300 have them too, but I haven’t been in the avionics bay in a long time.

Of course, those aren’t som much as access ladder as convenience ladders for maintenance. Since you have to be in the aircraft to deploy them, or have a ladder to access them, so you can deploy them.

fr8mech wrote:

Lukas757 wrote:

The A340 has an integrated foldable ladder to access the aircraft from outside.

The B747 has one also. A little simpler than that contraption. I want to say our A300 have them too, but I haven’t been in the avionics bay in a long time

A300 has it as well. Back in the days this ladder was standard, with the A350 you have to pay an extra dime...

Lukas757 wrote:

The A340 has an integrated foldable ladder to access the aircraft from outside.
Here is a training video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKrHO6a04Cw

Many operators have removed the ladder. I guess it saves a bit of weight not to have it.

Finding a ladder tends not to be a problem at most airports.

I once worked a 767 bizjet and they brought their own ground engineer who later entered the aircraft via a ladder and hatch in the front somewhere... Got a photo somewhere in my archives...

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

BubbleFrog wrote:

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

They came through the EE Bay access door that is aft of the nose gear. Climbed the integral ladder into the passenger cabin. The floor access door is inboard of the L1 door just to the left of the aircraft centerline. On a pax bird, the door is covered by a flap of carpet.

BubbleFrog wrote:

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

Climb on the nose strut, open avionics door, climb up. Repeat for the cabin floor hatch.

BubbleFrog wrote:

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKzM9R21LZc

Goto 10:20

fr8mech wrote:

BubbleFrog wrote:

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

They came through the EE Bay access door that is aft of the nose gear. Climbed the integral ladder into the passenger cabin. The floor access door is inboard of the L1 door just to the left of the aircraft centerline. On a pax bird, the door is covered by a flap of carpet.

fr8mech, I have a couple of questions:
1. I assume there is a locking mechanism/you need a key to gain access from the outside? Otherwise anyone can gain access into a 744 parked on the tarmac?
2. Would you get a Door Open/Unsafe light in the cockpit if it is not properly secured?
3. It would be impossible to open the door if the cabin is pressurised?

Thanks.

889091 wrote:

fr8mech wrote:

BubbleFrog wrote:

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

They came through the EE Bay access door that is aft of the nose gear. Climbed the integral ladder into the passenger cabin. The floor access door is inboard of the L1 door just to the left of the aircraft centerline. On a pax bird, the door is covered by a flap of carpet.

fr8mech, I have a couple of questions:
1. I assume there is a locking mechanism/you need a key to gain access from the outside? Otherwise anyone can gain access into a 744 parked on the tarmac?
2. Would you get a Door Open/Unsafe light in the cockpit if it is not properly secured?
3. It would be impossible to open the door if the cabin is pressurised?

Thanks.

There are no Keys required to open any commercial aircraft exterior doors. It would be pretty bad if the mechanic who has the key in his pocket is off for the weekend
Security seals are installed when necessary.

Most exterior access doors, especially those in pressurized areas, have a cockpit indication on modern aircraft. IIRC they retrofitted a switch on the internal access to the E&E in the cabin of the 747 post 9/11. On the 777 the E&E access is in the forward galley and in theory always "guarded" by a flight attendant. On the 777F the access is covered by carpet, because couriers might be unattended in the galley/supernumerary area.

It is not possible to open any exterior access door in the pressurized area when the cabin is pressurized. You would be able to access the E&E from the cabin, but you wouldn't be able to open the exterior door.

Starlionblue wrote:

Lukas757 wrote:

The A340 has an integrated foldable ladder to access the aircraft from outside.
Here is a training video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKrHO6a04Cw

Many operators have removed the ladder. I guess it saves a bit of weight not to have it.

Finding a ladder tends not to be a problem at most airports.

Can't imagine that ladder set up weighs much. Does this insignificant weight actually matter that much in terms of fuel burn?

889091 wrote:

fr8mech, I have a couple of questions:
1. I assume there is a locking mechanism/you need a key to gain access from the outside? Otherwise anyone can gain access into a 744 parked on the tarmac?
2. Would you get a Door Open/Unsafe light in the cockpit if it is not properly secured?
3. It would be impossible to open the door if the cabin is pressurised?

Thanks.

I can’t add much more to what Horstroad wrote above.

As it pertains to keys, there are none. This is why the TSA regulations we deal with on the ramp are political theatre. We ‘secure’ aircraft by pulling equipment away and closing doors. Quite simply, it would take me about 30 seconds...well, maybe 45 seconds, now that I’m older...to get into a B747, from the moment I touch the nose gear.

All the regulations do are deter the casual ‘potential offender’. Someone even remotely determined will be able to do damage.

Our Classic freighters did not have a warning switch that the interior panel was open. Our new builds did. In fact, that same switch deactivates the nose area loading system. It just wouldn’t do to have someone’s head taken off by a pallet.

889091 wrote:

fr8mech wrote:

BubbleFrog wrote:

We were once stuck on the tarmac in a 744, and somebody came into the cabin by way of the nose wheel and through a hatch on the cabin floor. Can anyone enlighten me how that worked?

They came through the EE Bay access door that is aft of the nose gear. Climbed the integral ladder into the passenger cabin. The floor access door is inboard of the L1 door just to the left of the aircraft centerline. On a pax bird, the door is covered by a flap of carpet.

fr8mech, I have a couple of questions:
1. I assume there is a locking mechanism/you need a key to gain access from the outside? Otherwise anyone can gain access into a 744 parked on the tarmac?
2. Would you get a Door Open/Unsafe light in the cockpit if it is not properly secured?
3. It would be impossible to open the door if the cabin is pressurised?

Thanks.

1. No locking mechanism from the outside. Also want to point out even tho most of these bigger planes have stairs that drop down, any physically fit individual can climb up the back of the nose gear and monkey themselves in. It’s about 7 or 8 feet up on a 744.
2. Yes. (On the door synoptic page)
3. Correct.

crimsonchin wrote:

Can't imagine that ladder set up weighs much. Does this insignificant weight actually matter that much in terms of fuel burn?

A few years ago we had a weight savings program for our aircraft. They told us each kilogram removed from every aircraft in the fleet would save €30.000 per year. I'm not sure how they defined "fleet"... All A340 (for example)? All wide body aircraft? All aircraft in the airline? All aircraft in the group? Doesn't matter. In the end it's a bean counters calculations. They removed coat hangers and left only two per aircraft (cargo fleet) to save weight. But they didn't restrict the weight of the pilots. So one pilot alone could counteract the effort of removing 200 coat hangers if he weighed 130kg instead of 80kg. The fuel quantity indication is only accurate to the next 50kg. 200kg more or less fuel is a "rounding error". The fuel measuring sticks only need to be accurate to about 2% of the full tank capacity. So you could have 12,000 coat hangers worth of fuel more on board than known.
That being said and with all the variations and uncertainties, each kilogram that can be saved will save you money in the long run. An A330 fleet with the ladders installed will have burnt more fuel after 20 years than an A330 fleet with the ladders removed.
I have not weighed the ladder assy on the A330/340 but I assume it's around 10kg or somewhere in that ballpark.

fr8mech wrote:

889091 wrote:

fr8mech, I have a couple of questions:
1. I assume there is a locking mechanism/you need a key to gain access from the outside? Otherwise anyone can gain access into a 744 parked on the tarmac?
2. Would you get a Door Open/Unsafe light in the cockpit if it is not properly secured?
3. It would be impossible to open the door if the cabin is pressurised?

Thanks.

I can’t add much more to what Horstroad wrote above.

As it pertains to keys, there are none. This is why the TSA regulations we deal with on the ramp are political theatre. We ‘secure’ aircraft by pulling equipment away and closing doors. Quite simply, it would take me about 30 seconds...well, maybe 45 seconds, now that I’m older...to get into a B747, from the moment I touch the nose gear.

All the regulations do are deter the casual ‘potential offender’. Someone even remotely determined will be able to do damage.

Ain’t that the truth. If you want in and know anything about the aircraft, you’ll get in.

EE bay was my go to access point for diversions when the handling company was stretched too thin or the stairs were out of service. Give the engineer a lift, then he’d give me a hand up. Not exactly company policy, but it works

During initial checkout as an FE on 747-200's we got to open the hatch and proceed down to the nose gear/EE compartment. Basically it was to show us how to drop the nose gear if the two primary emergency methods failed. It involved unscrewing a bunch of bolts to release a brace of some sort. Even the wrench was located nearby the brace. Farther back, you could separate a insulated canvas/fire break material (think it was velcroed closed) and see (or access) the forward lower cargo compartment. This is from memory, so details may be off.

RetiredWeasel wrote:

During initial checkout as an FE on 747-200's we got to open the hatch and proceed down to the nose gear/EE compartment. Basically it was to show us how to drop the nose gear if the two primary emergency methods failed. It involved unscrewing a bunch of bolts to release a brace of some sort. Even the wrench was located nearby the brace. Farther back, you could separate a insulated canvas/fire break material (think it was velcroed closed) and see (or access) the forward lower cargo compartment. This is from memory, so details may be off.

That was a 7/16th wrench on a lanyard. It was used to remove the bolts holding the one of the nose door rod supports. The hope was that if the doors jammed, removing that support would allow the weight of the gear to force the doors open. As I recall, the bolts to remove had their heads painted red.

That wrench was part of my walk around at Pan Am.

Horstroad wrote:

A few years ago we had a weight savings program for our aircraft. They told us each kilogram removed from every aircraft in the fleet would save €30.000 per year.
[...]
I have not weighed the ladder assy on the A330/340 but I assume it's around 10kg or somewhere in that ballpark.

Hello Horstroad,
In very simple terms, a jet aircraft will burn about 1/25th to 1/40th of its current in-flight weight of fuel per hour. The 1/40th figure would apply for the most advanced long range twin jets.
So, if you manage to reduce the OEW by a kg - may it by through the removal of unneeded equipment, reducing fuel reserve, putting the crew on a diet - you will save a kg of fuel burn within 25 to 40 flight hours. Assuming that a commercial jet will fly between 3'000h and 5'000h per year, weight reductions will save between 75 and 200 times the weight reduction worth of fuel per year. Assuming a lifespan of 25 years, one kg of weight reduction will yield accumulated fuel savings of 1'875kg and 5'000kg.

So, looking at a yearly figure of let's say 150kg of fuel savings per kg of weight saved and assuming a fuel price of 0,50USD/kg that's 75USD per aircraft per year. So the statement of your company (with the current assumptions) is correct for a fleet of 400 aircraft (75 * 400 = 30'000).

Best regards,
Hendric

hitower3 wrote:

Horstroad wrote:

A few years ago we had a weight savings program for our aircraft. They told us each kilogram removed from every aircraft in the fleet would save €30.000 per year.
[...]
I have not weighed the ladder assy on the A330/340 but I assume it's around 10kg or somewhere in that ballpark.

Hello Horstroad,
In very simple terms, a jet aircraft will burn about 1/25th to 1/40th of its current in-flight weight of fuel per hour. The 1/40th figure would apply for the most advanced long range twin jets.
So, if you manage to reduce the OEW by a kg - may it by through the removal of unneeded equipment, reducing fuel reserve, putting the crew on a diet - you will save a kg of fuel burn within 25 to 40 flight hours. Assuming that a commercial jet will fly between 3'000h and 5'000h per year, weight reductions will save between 75 and 200 times the weight reduction worth of fuel per year. Assuming a lifespan of 25 years, one kg of weight reduction will yield accumulated fuel savings of 1'875kg and 5'000kg.

So, looking at a yearly figure of let's say 150kg of fuel savings per kg of weight saved and assuming a fuel price of 0,50USD/kg that's 75USD per aircraft per year. So the statement of your company (with the current assumptions) is correct for a fleet of 400 aircraft (75 * 400 = 30'000).

Best regards,
Hendric

Thanks a lot. This went pretty far off topic by now
But that's why I like this forum so much. You learn something new every day, even when you don't expect it.

Lpbri wrote:

On a 777, you can access the forward cargo from the E&E compartment, which itself is accessed from a hatch in the floor in the first class galley. To open that hatch you need to be able to unlock it.

Locks only appeared after MH370 ......

Thanks everyone. Now I know a bit more. Really appreciate it.

Horstroad wrote:

There are no Keys required to open any commercial aircraft exterior doors.

That's not true. Many low-sitting aircraft such as the ATR have locks on the doors, and the aircraft get delivered from the factory with keys. Never seen them in use out in the real world however, presumably for the exact scenario you suggested, with somebody running off with the keys in his pocket.

PSA (the original airline) experimented with L1011's briefly back in 1974-75. Since PSA was a short-haul airline that didn't fly lots of cargo, one of the features of their L1011's was a below-deck lounge located in what would have been the forward cargo hold. The lounge had access to the main deck above and to the outside via a door exit with folding airstairs that could reach the ramp.

https://travelupdate.com/psa-lockheed-tristar-lounge/

https://youtu.be/LxS2RR-Vx_s

Access to the A350's forward hold via the E&E compartment at 1:22

N965UW wrote:

https://youtu.be/LxS2RR-Vx_s

Access to the A350's forward hold via the E&E compartment at 1:22

Compared to the A330, the A350 hatch is nicely off to the side and a bit out of the way. The wide cockpit can accommodate that position. On the A330 it is right in front of the cockpit door, which you definitely want to close before opening the hatch. Otherwise, someone coming in might not see the opening and fall in. Yes, this has happened.

That plane definitely still has that new plane smell. So clean! Doing walkarounds on brand new A350s it was almost startling to actually see squeaky clean gear wells.

I'm sorry if I missed a response to the earlier question about the L1011. I know there was a galley under the main cabin, with a small elevator for the flight attendants. I don't know if it also allowed access to the cargo compartment.