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adipasqu
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Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 1:29 am

On my way home from work every day, I drive right under the departure path of the 28's at SFO. I see lots of business jets of all size using the 28's for departure, even though most NB departures will be using the 01's on a typical day and depart over the bay and only see the heavies using the 28's due to the need for the longer runway length. I realize sometimes NB's will use the 28's for various reasons (wind, destination considerations, etc.), but are there specific reasons why biz jets may elect to use longer runways at a major airport like SFO? Are they taking a large derate to save fuel, engine wear and tear, etc. and using more runway then necessary with full thrust? I assume the pilot is requesting the departure runway and can request the 01's or the 28's under normal circumstances as they see fit operationally. Wouldn't the tower prefer usage of the 01's for most aircraft departures to avoid spacing issues for the landings on the 28's?
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 2:49 am

Very simple, if they’re using the 28s and the 01s, the taxi route from the FBO on the opposite from the the terminal is far shorter, doesn’t involve crossing 28s or the long loop around the end of the 28s AND getting mixed up in the terminal. Short taxi, no crossings, no pushbacks, what’s not to love? Only a few bizjets use reduced thrust and none use derates
 
adipasqu
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Very simple, if they’re using the 28s and the 01s, the taxi route from the FBO on the opposite from the the terminal is far shorter, doesn’t involve crossing 28s or the long loop around the end of the 28s AND getting mixed up in the terminal. Short taxi, no crossings, no pushbacks, what’s not to love? Only a few bizjets use reduced thrust and none use derates


I thought about the taxi route from the FBO, but they still have to cross the 01's on Charlie and it looks to be about the same distance to the 28's as to the 01's via Echo and Bravo. I guess keeping them out of the terminal and the associated congestion must be a big factor. Thanks!
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e38
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 3:11 am

What GalaxyFlyer said exactly.

adipasqu wrote:
I assume the pilot is requesting the departure runway and can request the 01's or the 28's under normal circumstances as they see fit operationally. Wouldn't the tower prefer usage of the 01's for most aircraft departures to avoid spacing issues for the landings on the 28's?


Reference your comments, "I assume the pilot is requesting the departure runway and can request the 01's or the 28's under normal circumstances as they see fit operationally."

Often at busy airports, ground control assigns the departure runway. If the runway they assign doesn't meet your needs operationally, then the pilot will request a specific runway. But in this case, at SFO, I don't know why you would decline a clearance to takeoff on the 28s.

Also, "Wouldn't the tower prefer usage of the 01's for most aircraft departures to avoid spacing issues for the landings on the 28's?"

Yes, but in this case, to simplify taxi operations as GalaxyFlyer mentioned, it's very easy for the tower controller to build a gap in the arrival sequence to get a few departures off the 28s. A quick, routine coordination with approach control and you've got spacing to insert departures.

Your last comment, "I guess keeping them out of the terminal and the associated congestion must be a big factor."

That is correct. During peak departure periods, the area around the 01s--taxiways A, B, A1, A2, M1--can become quite congested.

The taxi distance may be comparable, but there is considerably more potential for conflict by using E / B to the 01s than a straight shot down C to the 28s.

e38
 
adipasqu
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Posts: 192
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 3:36 am

e38 wrote:

Your last comment, "I guess keeping them out of the terminal and the associated congestion must be a big factor."

That is correct. During peak departure periods, the area around the 01s--taxiways A, B, A1, A2, M1--can become quite congested.

The taxi distance may be comparable, but there is considerably more potential for conflict by using E / B to the 01s than a straight shot down C to the 28s.

e38


Thanks, this does make perfect sense. I know I've been on an aircraft that was #8 or #9 for the 01's with aircraft lined up 4 deep on Alfa and Bravo only to have an aircraft lined up on 01L needing to go back to the gate. If I remember correctly, it taxied down 01L and exited at Golf to go back.
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IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 1:45 pm

[quote="adipasqu"Wouldn't the tower prefer usage of the 01's for most aircraft departures to avoid spacing issues for the landings on the 28's?[/quote]

Not really as it takes almost as much spacing to depart from 1L/R to get the departure through the intersections of 28L/R before the 28 landers cross the threshold. Having a corporate jet "line up and wait" as the first arrival crosses the threshold and the next is on a 2.5 or 3 NM final then clearing them for takeoff is very simple. That corporate jet will be airborne in about 20 seconds leaving plenty of room for the second arrival and thinking back to my younger days of being a tower controller at a major airport cannot even remember any corporate jet using more than 5,000' of runway for departure and most much less.

Minimizing any and all runway crossings is a much safer operation period. Keeping traffic moving and not getting bottled up around ramps is also much preferred as others have mentioned above.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
adipasqu
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 2:43 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:

Not really as it takes almost as much spacing to depart from 1L/R to get the departure through the intersections of 28L/R before the 28 landers cross the threshold. Having a corporate jet "line up and wait" as the first arrival crosses the threshold and the next is on a 2.5 or 3 NM final then clearing them for takeoff is very simple. That corporate jet will be airborne in about 20 seconds leaving plenty of room for the second arrival and thinking back to my younger days of being a tower controller at a major airport cannot even remember any corporate jet using more than 5,000' of runway for departure and most much less.


Are there any wake turbulence considerations, say when a 747 or 380 lands with a corporate jet lined up to wait to take off on the same runway, or as soon as the heavy has vacated the tower can/will clear the corporate jet for departure to fit into that 2.5-3 NM gap between landings?
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IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm

adipasqu wrote:
Are there any wake turbulence considerations, say when a 747 or 380 lands with a corporate jet lined up to wait to take off on the same runway, or as soon as the heavy has vacated the tower can/will clear the corporate jet for departure to fit into that 2.5-3 NM gap between landings?


In your example there is no wake turbulence separation issues, as soon as the heavy/super is clear of the runway the departure can be cleared for takeoff. However, if an opposite direction departure from the landing traffic then you'll have wake turbulence separation requirements.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
atcdan
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 10:05 pm

In response to the OP, these answers are all correct.

Having worked at 2 major “core 5 airports” in the tower (working delivery, ground control, and local control) there is always something called a taxi plan. There is a position in the tower called a traffic management coordinator whose job it is to set the taxi plan for certain SIDs off of certain runways.

Generally at LAX if you’re departing northbound, you will taxi to depart off the north runways, if you are parked on the far south side (cargo and GA), you’ll generally depart from the south runways, as it minimizes the number of runway crossings and then it will be up to local control to find a slot for those planes to fit into the departures off the north runways.

Generally speaking ATC assigns the runway based on what will get all planes off the airport as quickly as possible. Sometimes that means a longer taxi time for your particular flight, but believe me we don’t do it to be mean lol.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
acecrackshot
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 10:38 pm

I’ve always appreciated towers that seem to understand corporate/charter guys and gals are in there once or twice a year (or career!) vs. the airline (especially regional pilots) in a busy airport multiple times per week.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Tue May 11, 2021 11:09 pm

acecrackshot wrote:
I’ve always appreciated towers that seem to understand corporate/charter guys and gals are in there once or twice a year (or career!) vs. the airline (especially regional pilots) in a busy airport multiple times per week.


Yeah, it was always interesting to land at KEWR or KORD and be bombarded with taxi clearances like you were a local and, in truth, hadn’t been in years.
 
atcdan
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Wed May 12, 2021 5:48 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
I’ve always appreciated towers that seem to understand corporate/charter guys and gals are in there once or twice a year (or career!) vs. the airline (especially regional pilots) in a busy airport multiple times per week.


Yeah, it was always interesting to land at KEWR or KORD and be bombarded with taxi clearances like you were a local and, in truth, hadn’t been in years.


We always treat corporate, mil, and foreign crews with kid gloves lol. It’s much easier to spell it out once than try to get someone to look up taxi routes at a place they might fly to once in a year, or a decade.
LAX ATC

All posts are my own opinions and do not represent my employer or any government entity in any way.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Wed May 12, 2021 7:55 am

atcdan wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
acecrackshot wrote:
I’ve always appreciated towers that seem to understand corporate/charter guys and gals are in there once or twice a year (or career!) vs. the airline (especially regional pilots) in a busy airport multiple times per week.


Yeah, it was always interesting to land at KEWR or KORD and be bombarded with taxi clearances like you were a local and, in truth, hadn’t been in years.


We always treat corporate, mil, and foreign crews with kid gloves lol. It’s much easier to spell it out once than try to get someone to look up taxi routes at a place they might fly to once in a year, or a decade.


And we appreciate that. :D

Conversely, at home port ATC doesn't tend to worry about us too much. Yes, we can take that shortcut. :)
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SFOT
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Fri May 14, 2021 5:09 pm

At SFO the ground control and local controller have the option of departures at intersections for business jets. The most common intersection is RWY 28R at ECHO. Short taxi and no runway crossings. The only wake turbulence consideration is same runway or heavy jet departure before an intersection departure. The other question about same runway wake turbulence is a small can't wake out the turbulence on the runway, a large aircraft can. At SFO the question was always on the 01's the limited factor was the arrivals on the 28's that was stopping the departure not the wake turbulence requirement. We still wouldn't taxi a small behind a heavy jet departure.
 
BENAir01
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 4:25 pm

As SFOT said, most bizjets do 28R at E departures. If they need a longer section, it’s not unlikely they would get the 1s. The reason to do 28R (at Echo) is to minimize runway crossing and disruption and just get them out of there.
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 4:38 pm

adipasqu wrote:
On my way home from work every day, I drive right under the departure path of the 28's at SFO. I see lots of business jets of all size using the 28's for departure, even though most NB departures will be using the 01's on a typical day and depart over the bay and only see the heavies using the 28's due to the need for the longer runway length. I realize sometimes NB's will use the 28's for various reasons (wind, destination considerations, etc.), but are there specific reasons why biz jets may elect to use longer runways at a major airport like SFO? Are they taking a large derate to save fuel, engine wear and tear, etc. and using more runway then necessary with full thrust? I assume the pilot is requesting the departure runway and can request the 01's or the 28's under normal circumstances as they see fit operationally. Wouldn't the tower prefer usage of the 01's for most aircraft departures to avoid spacing issues for the landings on the 28's?


Funny that you should bring that up, I'm checking FR24 and two biz jets took off from the 1's, did exactly the opposite of what you described.

https://www.flightradar24.com/E55P/27bb3e82

https://www.flightradar24.com/N111QS/27ba2626
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 4:49 pm

I’ve departed from the 01s, it’s just takes longer, is a pain to taxi from the FBO (Signature?) compared to the 28s.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 5:51 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
Funny that you should bring that up, I'm checking FR24 and two biz jets took off from the 1's, did exactly the opposite of what you described.


Most likely due to the fact that 10L/28R is closed.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
adipasqu
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 5:58 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:

Funny that you should bring that up, I'm checking FR24 and two biz jets took off from the 1's, did exactly the opposite of what you described.

https://www.flightradar24.com/E55P/27bb3e82

https://www.flightradar24.com/N111QS/27ba2626


N111QS is a Global 5000 headed to Kona, HI, so I would assume it needed more length than what is available from 28R at E.

The jets I typically see using the 28's are pretty small (Cessna Citation/Bombardier Challenger 300 size), which is why I asked my originally question of those size jets using the full length of the 28's. However, if those jets are using 28R at E for their departures, then my observations make perfect sense considering how low they still are over Tanforan/I-380-101 interchange.
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IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 6:40 pm

adipasqu wrote:
N111QS is a Global 5000 headed to Kona, HI, so I would assume it needed more length than what is available from 28R at E.


See post above your last, 10L/28R is closed so they cannot use it. :alert:
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
adipasqu
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 7:15 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
adipasqu wrote:
N111QS is a Global 5000 headed to Kona, HI, so I would assume it needed more length than what is available from 28R at E.


See post above your last, 10L/28R is closed so they cannot use it. :alert:


That would do it too, now wouldn't it!

So, under this scenario where 28R is unavailable, I assume they would want to keep 28L for landings only except for those that absolutely need the length of 28L for departure and send biz jets through the terminal to use the 01's? Based on the NOTAM, it looks like TWY C is closed between 01R/19L and the 28L approach as well as between R and Z, so anything coming from Cargo or the FBO will have to cross 28L at K, D, or E no matter what.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 7:25 pm

Kona in a Global would be easy off 28R from Echo, IF it were open. It’s an obstacle limited runway for Globals, not field length. Today, one could depart off 28R and go Kona with 14,000 pounds to spare, probably could do London.

A Global would nearly always beat the runway performance of smaller jets flying the same trip. Rough rule of thumb was 5,000 miles off 5,000’ assuming dry, standard day and no negative cruise wind factor.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 7:53 pm

adipasqu wrote:
So, under this scenario where 28R is unavailable, I assume they would want to keep 28L for landings only except for those that absolutely need the length of 28L for departure and send biz jets through the terminal to use the 01's?


Doubt ground control would take route them "through the terminal" and have to coordinate with ramp control unless everything else was all screwed up (which can happen :white: ). They would most likely use Taxiway A or B to get them in the conga line for the 1's.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Sun May 16, 2021 7:54 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
adipasqu wrote:
So, under this scenario where 28R is unavailable, I assume they would want to keep 28L for landings only except for those that absolutely need the length of 28L for departure and send biz jets through the terminal to use the 01's?


Doubt ground control would take route them "through the terminal" and have to coordinate with ramp control unless everything else was all screwed up (which can happen :white: ). They would most likely use Taxiway A or B to get them in the conga line for the 1's.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
26point2
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Thu May 20, 2021 1:32 pm

I was based at SFO Signature for many years until last year. We operated a Global there. The aircraft owner, his plane and crew were all part of the Great California Exodus and moved out of state.

Some of the comments above are correct but not all.

In our experience we could only get a departure from 28R at ECHO taxiway (or sometimes we’re told to taxi full length) if the flight was heading southbound on the OFFSHORE 2 or SSTICK 4 departures. Flights to So Cal or Hawaii will often get the 28R departure. Even with this the inbound 28R landing traffic and wake turbulence from departing heavies who are too big for the 1s can mean a long wait. If the timing is bad and you hit the (before COVID) busy Euro departure bank it’s quicker to taxi to the 1s.

Flights eastbound nearly always require a taxi to the 1s. There are exceptions to this: one can head eastbound from 28R if early in the morning using the NIITE 3 departure. I think right at about 7am or 8am the NIITE departure is discontinued for the day....it’s a noise thing.

Additionally a taxi from Signature to the 1s will never get cleared across any runways. One taxis all the way to the west end of the 28s, around the end, back eastbound and then south through the usually busy terminal ramp/inner taxiway and into the elephant walk....an often long line waiting for takeoff. Easily a 20+ minute journey.

I know I’m stating the obvious but operating a biz jet from a major airport rarely makes sense when there are better small airport options nearby. SFO can be optimal for those people who live in The City or near the airport as getting to the airport is a relatively short journey but operationally is a major hassle. San Francisco’s Salesforce bases a jet at SFO as does a certain US Senator who lives in SF. Most others base at OAK or SJC.

And we haven’t even discussed trying to get back INTO SFO yet.
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Thu May 20, 2021 4:04 pm

26point2 wrote:
And we haven’t even discussed trying to get back INTO SFO yet.


What a joy that is once the ceiling goes down below around 3,500' and you can't see the Dumbarton Bridges.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Thu May 20, 2021 5:37 pm

ITT’s flight department used to be over by the MAT at KLGA, IIRC, they had to close the access road to taxi out.
 
adipasqu
Topic Author
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Fri May 21, 2021 1:23 am

This Gulfstream IV just did a 28L at E departure:

https://www.flightradar24.com/GLF4/27c73544

Does anyone know where to find the take-off distances from taxiways?

Also, this CRJ-700 landed on 28L and took 19R to get back to T1:

https://www.flightradar24.com/SKW3295/27c70c0e

Definitely some interesting taxi routes due to the construction.

I guess they aren't using the 01's right now due to the winds being right down the 28's:

KSFO 210056Z 28025G30KT 10SM FEW015 FEW030 SCT090 16/05 A2999 RMK AO2 PK WND 28035/0009 SLP155 T01610050

Single runway ops for the moment at SFO.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Biz jet ops at Major Airports

Fri May 21, 2021 3:16 am

A runway analysis program will have all the declared distances including from various intersections.

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