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747classic
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MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 19, 2021 11:52 am

AFAIK all MD11 aircraft were delivered with 6 identical CRT displays.
Seen the fact that the last producer of CRT's (Toshiba) stopped production in 2020, i have the following questions :

- Is a LCD replacement for the MD11 CRT's already available or scheduled to be certified, seen the fast rising CRT repair costs ?
- Can the LCD displays, produced for the (FedEx) MD10 Honeywell VIA 2000 EFIS Flightdeck upgrade be used for replacement of the MD11 CRT's ?


Backgroud info: https://www.aviationtoday.com/wp-conten ... report.pdf
 
T54A
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Thu May 20, 2021 3:40 pm

I doubt LCD's can be used instead of CRT. Same problem exits for the A320, A330 and A340's that still have EIS1 CRT's.
 
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747classic
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Thu May 20, 2021 4:20 pm

T54A wrote:
I doubt LCD's can be used instead of CRT. Same problem exits for the A320, A330 and A340's that still have EIS1 CRT's.


Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?
 
N1120A
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon May 24, 2021 10:28 pm

I don't see a reason they couldn't use the same LCDs as the MD10, and actually piggy back the STC as well.
 
LMP737
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon May 24, 2021 11:28 pm

747classic wrote:

Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?


The CRT's on the MD-11 do not have an embedded symbol generator. Nor do the LCD's on the MD-10.

In the case of the MD-11, three DEU's (Display Electronics Unit) provide symbol generation for the six Display Unit's. On the MD-10 three Honeywell VIA LRU's perform that function. The LCD's on the MD-10 cannot be installed on the MD-11. The electrical connectors are different. Which means you would have to make wiring/connector changes. I'm not sure if the LCD's off the MD-10 would be compatible with the DEU's on the -11.

You're guess is as good as mine if FDX plans on replacing the CRT's with LCS's one day. The MD-11, in FedEx service at least, will probably be around for another 15-20 years so we just light see an LCD on it's flight deck.
 
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747classic
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Tue May 25, 2021 5:26 am

LMP737 wrote:
747classic wrote:

Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?


The CRT's on the MD-11 do not have an embedded symbol generator. Nor do the LCD's on the MD-10.

In the case of the MD-11, three DEU's (Display Electronics Unit) provide symbol generation for the six Display Unit's. On the MD-10 three Honeywell VIA LRU's perform that function. The LCD's on the MD-10 cannot be installed on the MD-11. The electrical connectors are different. Which means you would have to make wiring/connector changes. I'm not sure if the LCD's off the MD-10 would be compatible with the DEU's on the -11.

You're guess is as good as mine if FDX plans on replacing the CRT's with LCS's one day. The MD-11, in FedEx service at least, will probably be around for another 15-20 years so we just light see an LCD on it's flight deck.


Thx for answering the two important questions :
- no embedded symbol generatores in the MD11 CRT's :checkmark:
- no 1: 1 replacement possible with a MD10 LCD. :checkmark:

So, if needed an LCD can be relative easy and cost effective produced/certified to replace the MD11 CRT's, like the 767 and 737 CRT's, without a symbol generator, replaced by LCD's
See : https://www.thomas-global.com/commercia ... -avionics/
And : https://www.thomas-global.com/product/tfd-7000-series/

So if both FedEx and UPS plan to operate the MD11 fleet for more than 10-15 years it may be wise fot both Technical Departments to research the possibilities.
Especially UPS is still introducing extra aircraft in their MD11 fleet.
 
LMP737
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Tue May 25, 2021 11:09 pm

747classic wrote:


Thx for answering the two important questions :
- no embedded symbol generatores in the MD11 CRT's :checkmark:
- no 1: 1 replacement possible with a MD10 LCD. :checkmark:

So, if needed an LCD can be relative easy and cost effective produced/certified to replace the MD11 CRT's, like the 767 and 737 CRT's, without a symbol generator, replaced by LCD's
See : https://www.thomas-global.com/commercia ... -avionics/
And : https://www.thomas-global.com/product/tfd-7000-series/

So if both FedEx and UPS plan to operate the MD11 fleet for more than 10-15 years it may be wise fot both Technical Departments to research the possibilities.
Especially UPS is still introducing extra aircraft in their MD11 fleet.


Since CRT's are becoming more expensive to support it might be in the best interest of both FedEx and UPS to study an LCD replacement of the current displays. Given the small number of MD-11's still flying it would be in both their best interest not to go it alone. Obvious answer would be an LCD that can be installed without having to make wiring changes to the aircraft itself. Which rule out the MD-10 LCD units.

.
 
boacvc10
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 26, 2021 2:20 am

Wait... even a basic FPGA programmer can easily produce complex LCD touch sensitive graphics using modern LCD or LED panels and in some cases there are innovative immersive display hardware options with 3D imaging and clever optics.. so probably there are professional groups who can produce HMI panels anytime. But the discussion here is confusing. What is the special feature here that can't be easily replicated with modern tech that would be lighter and cheaper to maintain? Symbol generator? Is this related to display alarms or digital signals?
 
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747classic
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 26, 2021 6:55 am

boacvc10 wrote:
Wait... even a basic FPGA programmer can easily produce complex LCD touch sensitive graphics using modern LCD or LED panels and in some cases there are innovative immersive display hardware options with 3D imaging and clever optics.. so probably there are professional groups who can produce HMI panels anytime. But the discussion here is confusing. What is the special feature here that can't be easily replicated with modern tech that would be lighter and cheaper to maintain? Symbol generator? Is this related to display alarms or digital signals?


It's technical possible to design a replacement LCD, with all the complex switching and symbol generator(s) included (as installed in older Airbus aircraft).
But then you have to re-certify also all these extra functions.
If you only have to replace the CRT display by an LCD, certification is less complex and far cheaper.
Replacement is possible on 1:1 basis, so you can operate your MD11 with only one (1) LCD installed (plug and play) and the other five (5) CRT's still installed.
 
Agent
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 26, 2021 8:21 am

T54A wrote:
I doubt LCD's can be used instead of CRT. Same problem exits for the A320, A330 and A340's that still have EIS1 CRT's.

It is possible to upgrade EIS 1 (CRT) to EIS 2 (LCD), Airbus offers an SB for the retrofit. It has been done on all mentioned Airbus A/C, just a matter of willingness to pay the price.

So technically it should be possible on the MD-11, if there is a market and a STC for that, because there was no linefit LCD solution AFAIK.
 
ACMIdriver
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 26, 2021 11:53 am

747classic wrote:
T54A wrote:
I doubt LCD's can be used instead of CRT. Same problem exits for the A320, A330 and A340's that still have EIS1 CRT's.


Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?


Slightly off-topic, but how I always wondered how the Boeings handle this. Specifically for the 744, I assume symbol generation is a function of the EIU's? But if that is the case, why does upgrading to the DU-7001 LCDs enable "advanced graphics capabilities" (Rockwell's words not mine) like the VSD and airport map displays? And was there ever a plan to bring those capabilities to the -400 instead of shelving them until the -8 came about?
 
T54A
Posts: 377
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 26, 2021 1:41 pm

Agent wrote:
T54A wrote:
I doubt LCD's can be used instead of CRT. Same problem exits for the A320, A330 and A340's that still have EIS1 CRT's.

It is possible to upgrade EIS 1 (CRT) to EIS 2 (LCD), Airbus offers an SB for the retrofit. It has been done on all mentioned Airbus A/C, just a matter of willingness to pay the price.

So technically it should be possible on the MD-11, if there is a market and a STC for that, because there was no linefit LCD solution AFAIK.


Good info thanks
 
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747classic
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Wed May 26, 2021 2:26 pm

ACMIdriver wrote:

Slightly off-topic, but how I always wondered how the Boeings handle this. Specifically for the 744, I assume symbol generation is a function of the EIU's? But if that is the case, why does upgrading to the DU-7001 LCDs enable "advanced graphics capabilities" (Rockwell's words not mine) like the VSD and airport map displays? And was there ever a plan to bring those capabilities to the -400 instead of shelving them until the -8 came about?


AFAIK the DU-7001 LCD's were introduced at the 747-400ER and also factory installed at late built 747-400's.
Older DU-7000 CRT equipped 747-400's could also be retrofitted with the DU-7001 LCD, one by one, if required.
The DU-7001 LCD features advanced graphics capabilities to support future options including Vertical Situation Display, airport surface maps and electronic checklists. With the addition of a video card the display can support advanced video capabilities such as synthetic vision or video surveillance systems.
All options can be used after the standard 744 FMS is upgraded to the NGFMS (748) standard.
Boeing 747-400 operators can upgrade to the NGFMS by sending in their FMS boxes for a card change-out. The update is accomplished by changing out three processor cards with a single processor card that runs the NGFMS. Some additional wiring will be necessary for Future Air Navigation System (FANS) capability, as well as the DU-7001 LCD displays for operations such as Required Navigation Performance-Authorization Required (RNP AR).
 
LMP737
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Thu May 27, 2021 4:48 pm

747classic wrote:

It's technical possible to design a replacement LCD, with all the complex switching and symbol generator(s) included (as installed in older Airbus aircraft).
But then you have to re-certify also all these extra functions.
If you only have to replace the CRT display by an LCD, certification is less complex and far cheaper.
Replacement is possible on 1:1 basis, so you can operate your MD11 with only one (1) LCD installed (plug and play) and the other five (5) CRT's still installed.


The most logical course of action would be an LCD that you just plug-n-play. As you said, easier certification and cheaper. You start messing with wiring and symbol generation, it gets more cost and labor intensive. IMO if FedEx and UPS were to go this route they would more than likely replace all six displays at the same time. GEt the CRT's out of the system, sooner the better.
 
acmx
Posts: 28
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Fri May 28, 2021 3:04 am

LMP737 wrote:
747classic wrote:

It's technical possible to design a replacement LCD, with all the complex switching and symbol generator(s) included (as installed in older Airbus aircraft).
But then you have to re-certify also all these extra functions.
If you only have to replace the CRT display by an LCD, certification is less complex and far cheaper.
Replacement is possible on 1:1 basis, so you can operate your MD11 with only one (1) LCD installed (plug and play) and the other five (5) CRT's still installed.


The most logical course of action would be an LCD that you just plug-n-play. As you said, easier certification and cheaper. You start messing with wiring and symbol generation, it gets more cost and labor intensive. IMO if FedEx and UPS were to go this route they would more than likely replace all six displays at the same time. GEt the CRT's out of the system, sooner the better.



I agree that if there is a plug and play alternative available or becomes available that would be the best route. I don’t know that the md10 displays could work with the deu’s on an 11, and even if they could you would have to do a wire mod on the a/c side to make it work. But unless there is some restriction I would think you would do it by attrition. When one fails you replace it with a crt until you run out of stock. Then start using lcd’s as replacements. They already own them and might as well use them. Financially it would make more sense.
 
787SIN
Posts: 91
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Fri May 28, 2021 6:34 am

May well be sufficient stock of displays available sitting on shelves in the used market, plus if Toshiba was manufacturing the display tube until 2020 then there may also be a reasonable inventory of spare tubes sitting on shelves as well. If this is the case, then it probably won't be cost effective to change over to LCDs.

I remember embodying the SB for the 747-400 CRT to LCD swap out a long time back, screens was the quick bit, then uploading the new software into the three EIUs. We were a fairly early adopter of the modification as an airline, so got a favorable rate from the manufacturer.
 
LMP737
Posts: 6266
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: MD11 CRT displays

Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:18 pm

747classic wrote:

Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?


I've noticed on the LCD display upgrade on UPS A300 that the system displays are still CRT's.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... leted.html
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 1250
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:19 pm

LMP737 wrote:
747classic wrote:

Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?


I've noticed on the LCD display upgrade on UPS A300 that the system displays are still CRT's.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... leted.html


That link was a fascinating read nevertheless. Thank you. Love seeing OEM stand behind their product and offer such a thorough OEM upgrade. Amazing.
 
sho69607
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:07 am

Re: MD11 CRT displays

Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:48 am

Since the 717 was built with LCD’s from the factory, I wouldn’t think this would be an issue for the MD11 to have a retrofit. Also with Toshiba ending production of CRT’s, that means parts must come from existing models as far as I know. Unless someone decides to start making them again.
 
andrej
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:14 am

LMP737 wrote:
747classic wrote:

Airbus CRT displays have an embedded symbol generator included in the display LRU, which makes it difficult to find an LCD
solution or to replace it. It’s a very complex system.
For Boeing, the symbol generator is not included, it’s just a discrete CRT display unit, and the technology can be more readily replaced by LCD.

What about the MD11 CRT's, now supported by Boeing ?
Are the symbol generators also embedded ?
The MD10 upgrade program, started by MD and finished by Boeing during 1996-2000 used LCD displays to produce an MD11 identical flight deck for a common type rating.
Is FedEx using the MD10 displays from the phased-out MD10 aircraft for replacement of the MD11 CRT's or is replacement not possible ?


I've noticed on the LCD display upgrade on UPS A300 that the system displays are still CRT's.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... leted.html


Here is YT video of above mentioned A300 upgrade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b69bN02UUxs
 
LMP737
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:33 pm

sho69607 wrote:
Since the 717 was built with LCD’s from the factory, I wouldn’t think this would be an issue for the MD11 to have a retrofit. Also with Toshiba ending production of CRT’s, that means parts must come from existing models as far as I know. Unless someone decides to start making them again.


The main issue would be what would the cost be to develop and produce an LCD display compatible with the display connectors currently on the MD-11.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: MD11 CRT displays

Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:34 pm

LMP737 wrote:
sho69607 wrote:
Since the 717 was built with LCD’s from the factory, I wouldn’t think this would be an issue for the MD11 to have a retrofit. Also with Toshiba ending production of CRT’s, that means parts must come from existing models as far as I know. Unless someone decides to start making them again.


The main issue would be what would the cost be to develop and produce an LCD display compatible with the display connectors currently on the MD-11.


That's really a function of the cost tolerance of two operators, at this point.
 
DeltaMD95
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:13 pm

Understanding that Fed Ex and UPS remain dedicated to the MD-11F for at least the medium term, where does Western Global’s outlook stand with the smaller fleet in comparison? Is the expectation that they too will operate for another 10 years?

If so, I selfishly hope these three operators will coordinate together to create the market for the theoretical LCD upgrade. As it will be one less thing to sneak up on the type as an issue down the road, at the service life’s detriment.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10780
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:07 am

LMP737 wrote:
747classic wrote:

It's technical possible to design a replacement LCD, with all the complex switching and symbol generator(s) included (as installed in older Airbus aircraft).
But then you have to re-certify also all these extra functions.
If you only have to replace the CRT display by an LCD, certification is less complex and far cheaper.
Replacement is possible on 1:1 basis, so you can operate your MD11 with only one (1) LCD installed (plug and play) and the other five (5) CRT's still installed.


The most logical course of action would be an LCD that you just plug-n-play. As you said, easier certification and cheaper. You start messing with wiring and symbol generation, it gets more cost and labor intensive. IMO if FedEx and UPS were to go this route they would more than likely replace all six displays at the same time. GEt the CRT's out of the system, sooner the better.


Thomas Global makes a plug and play unit for 757/767 and for the 737 Classic (as well as the others noted below). They just replace the guts of the CRT LRU with circuit boards and such to take the input from the existing equipment in the electronics bay and make the LCD do what that equipment was telling the CRT to do. No replacing anything in the equipment bay.

Of course, on the 757/767, there is also a full cockpit upgrade solution from each of two manufacturers. The IS&S 757/767 solution and the Rockwell Collins LDS solution both require replacing stuff in the equipment rack. The IS&S solution uses the existing wiring; the Collins solution requires rewiring.

The reason that one might want to do a more-fulsome replacement is simple: functionality. The IS&S solution adds additional functionality over the existing CRTs, and in fact moves the functions of a bunch of analog LRUs as well as the CRTs onto two LCD displays. The Collins solution does more, not surprisingly including replacing the EICAS CRTs, which the IS&S does not.

Because of the different amounts of work involved, the different units require different downtime to install. The Thomas Global units can literally be swapped in at the gate, the IS&S install can be done overnight (although they usually do it in a couple of shifts), and the Rockwell LDS solution takes two weeks at an experienced installer.

With the Toshiba shutdown, some airlines that already have the IS&S 757/767 solution are taking the Thomas Global unit and swapping out the EICAS CRTs with that unit. No additional functionality, but now a CRT display of EICAS. (4 of the screens on the 757/767 are the same LRU, while 2 are another; so the same Thomas Global unit can replace the EICAS even if the other instruments have been replaced with the IS&S units.)

AA installed the IS&S solution on its 75/76s, while DL was going to install the Thomas Global solution. IIRC, ABX/ATI are looking at or have already decided to go with Thomas Global on the EICAS, having already installed the IS&S years ago on the whole fleet. (Omni uses the legacy cockpit.)

Thomas Global makes plug and play LCD LRU units for:
As noted, Boeing 757/767 and 737 classic which use the Collins EDU-776 and EDU-766 CRT units (one is the larger screen and one is the smaller screen);
Saab 340, EMB-120 and others that use the Collins EFD-86 CRT unit;
ATR42/72, Dash 8 and others that use the Honeywell ED-800 CRT unit;
CRJ-series and others that use the Collins EFD-4076 CRT unit.

One important aspect of moving to CRTs is uptime. The IS&S CEO recently was talking in an earnings call about uptime reliability of their solution in airline use and just noted in passing that based on actual in-service performance in their large installed base, it was something like 250,000-300,000 hours MTBF for the 757/767 cockpit upgrade. Incredible. In comparison, CRTs are, IIRC from other sources, something like 17000-34000 hours MBTF. At 250K hours, you're basically saying that it's extraordinarily-rare for the stuff to break during the reasonable remaining lifetime of the airframe. With a WGN diversion the other day as a result of issues with their MD11 nav instruments, this becomes real.

Thomas Global also engineers custom stuff, so I imagine they would be the guys to go to if there was enough demand in the installed base for CRT LRUs like this. I also note that Thomas Global repairs MD11 CRT LRUs.
 
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747classic
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Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:23 am

Conclusion :
The remaining major operators of the MD11 (FedEx, UPS and WGN) will have to make a businessplan to decide if its worth to replace the MD11 CRT's by LCD's.
In the interest of all three companies, this has to be a joined effort, to lower the development and certification costs
Preffered suplier would indeed be Thomas Global, seen the expertice of this company in this niche market : CRT replacement by LCD's.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10780
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: MD11 CRT displays

Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:15 pm

747classic wrote:
Conclusion :
The remaining major operators of the MD11 (FedEx, UPS and WGN) will have to make a businessplan to decide if its worth to replace the MD11 CRT's by LCD's.
In the interest of all three companies, this has to be a joined effort, to lower the development and certification costs
Preffered suplier would indeed be Thomas Global, seen the expertice of this company in this niche market : CRT replacement by LCD's.


Sorry, probably too much information, but I was trying to give a bit of the lay of the land, because I find it all very interesting.

I should mention that LH Techniks also has a group that does this kind of thing on the fleets they maintain, although to my knowledge they don't sell a product for installation by others. Given their experience with MD11s, maybe they've already looked at it.

So right now there are about 100, give or take, MD11s actively being flown by FedEx, UPS and WGN. If the thought is that they'll be around for another 5 years or so, it might well be worth it, depending on the in-service failure rate being experienced and being anticipated. If the fleet is going to be reduced by half or more in 5 years, then simply hriing a vendor like Thomas Global to maintain a supply of their refurbished or remanufactured CRT LRUs at a central location like MEM for quick delivery might be adequate.

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