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DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 7:00 am
by UA857
Does anyone know what is the MTOW of DL´s A359s? I heard they can´t fly JFK-BOM and JNB-ATL westbound nonstop? And given that DL has 20 A359s on order could DL convert them into the HGW variant to allow JFK-BOM and JNB-ATL nonstop?

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 9:24 pm
by Web500sjc
According to this thread: viewtopic.php?t=1460083&start=100

There are 2 sub fleets of DL A359s as of now,
Fleet A, 11 A359s with a MTOW of 275T (delivered at 268T)
Fleet B, 4 A359s with a MTOW of 280T

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 11:55 pm
by UA857
Web500sjc wrote:
According to this thread: viewtopic.php?t=1460083&start=100

There are 2 sub fleets of DL A359s as of now,
Fleet A, 11 A359s with a MTOW of 275T (delivered at 268T)
Fleet B, 4 A359s with a MTOW of 280T


Is the 280T variant the HGW variant?

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 6:10 am
by gloom
UA857 wrote:
Is the 280T variant the HGW variant?


Probably not in the terms you consider HGW.

A350 was built in batches. Current batch is using all improvements gathered so far, including 280T. Any A359 delivered nowadays is capable of 280T.

Previous batches were built with different MTOW. First two (around 20 planes) I think were 268T birds, and then they introduced 275T. These numbers are true to any bird within a batch.

There was also one special batch for Philippines, I think, for a connection to New York, upgraded to 278t, if I remember correctly, but a 275t batch bird. It never found another customer, as 280t bird was already in research.

However, A350 allows for a paper change of MTOW - that is, you could buy the very same frame with reduced MTOW (and ability to reach max allowed MTOW). It depends on mission profile, routes flown, generally airline profile for A359. There's a number of WV (Weight Variants) allowed for any A350, including A359. I guess around 20 now. If you don't need 280t, you can select (and pay for) lower weight variant.

So when talking about specific fleet, the important things are build batch, and weight option selected by airline. There's no such thing as HGW (Boeing style), though.

Hope that clears.

Cheers,
Adam

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 7:37 pm
by N965UW
gloom wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Is the 280T variant the HGW variant?


Probably not in the terms you consider HGW.

A350 was built in batches. Current batch is using all improvements gathered so far, including 280T. Any A359 delivered nowadays is capable of 280T.

Previous batches were built with different MTOW. First two (around 20 planes) I think were 268T birds, and then they introduced 275T. These numbers are true to any bird within a batch.

There was also one special batch for Philippines, I think, for a connection to New York, upgraded to 278t, if I remember correctly, but a 275t batch bird. It never found another customer, as 280t bird was already in research.

However, A350 allows for a paper change of MTOW - that is, you could buy the very same frame with reduced MTOW (and ability to reach max allowed MTOW). It depends on mission profile, routes flown, generally airline profile for A359. There's a number of WV (Weight Variants) allowed for any A350, including A359. I guess around 20 now. If you don't need 280t, you can select (and pay for) lower weight variant.

So when talking about specific fleet, the important things are build batch, and weight option selected by airline. There's no such thing as HGW (Boeing style), though.

Hope that clears.

Cheers,
Adam


It's easy to reduce MTOW on paper, but can earlier builds get a higher MTOW on paper as well? In the thread linked above, the oldest 280T DL A350 (N512DN) is a 2018 build, although 280T did not become standard until 2020 (source: https://leehamnews.com/2016/03/30/airbu ... ge-8100nm/). So did DL upgrade the MTOW on 512 and 513DZ?

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 7:55 pm
by gloom
N965UW wrote:
It's easy to reduce MTOW on paper, but can earlier builds get a higher MTOW on paper as well?


I don't have an answer for that. I'd risk that it's not only a paper upgrade, but also some hardware upgrade - but take it with a pinch of salt.

Perhaps someone else is able to confirm.

Cheers, Adam

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 10:10 pm
by ikolkyo
N965UW wrote:
gloom wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Is the 280T variant the HGW variant?


Probably not in the terms you consider HGW.

A350 was built in batches. Current batch is using all improvements gathered so far, including 280T. Any A359 delivered nowadays is capable of 280T.

Previous batches were built with different MTOW. First two (around 20 planes) I think were 268T birds, and then they introduced 275T. These numbers are true to any bird within a batch.

There was also one special batch for Philippines, I think, for a connection to New York, upgraded to 278t, if I remember correctly, but a 275t batch bird. It never found another customer, as 280t bird was already in research.

However, A350 allows for a paper change of MTOW - that is, you could buy the very same frame with reduced MTOW (and ability to reach max allowed MTOW). It depends on mission profile, routes flown, generally airline profile for A359. There's a number of WV (Weight Variants) allowed for any A350, including A359. I guess around 20 now. If you don't need 280t, you can select (and pay for) lower weight variant.

So when talking about specific fleet, the important things are build batch, and weight option selected by airline. There's no such thing as HGW (Boeing style), though.

Hope that clears.

Cheers,
Adam


It's easy to reduce MTOW on paper, but can earlier builds get a higher MTOW on paper as well? In the thread linked above, the oldest 280T DL A350 (N512DN) is a 2018 build, although 280T did not become standard until 2020 (source: https://leehamnews.com/2016/03/30/airbu ... ge-8100nm/). So did DL upgrade the MTOW on 512 and 513DZ?


Pretty sure 280t was an available option in 2018 and became the standard in 2020, there was also some changes to the wing twist, new sharklets and likely other changes. So I doubt earlier builds can get the 280t upgrade.

Re: DL A359 MTOW?

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 10:16 am
by WIederling
gloom wrote:
N965UW wrote:
It's easy to reduce MTOW on paper, but can earlier builds get a higher MTOW on paper as well?


I don't have an answer for that. I'd risk that it's not only a paper upgrade, but also some hardware upgrade - but take it with a pinch of salt.

Perhaps someone else is able to confirm.


AFAIR:
Batch 1 was overweight but retained the original MTOW ( ~~269t )
Batch 2 was still a bit overweight but got an MTOW boost ) ~~275t )
Batch 3 had weight control and retained the MTOW boost for increased performance.
Onwards the ULR details were folded into regular production MTOW now @ 280t
( and I suppose further OEW reductions, an ongoing effort.)