Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
fanoftristars
Topic Author
Posts: 1689
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 9:03 am

DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:44 pm

I've only noticed this at DFW, but there are three distinct lines for takeoff on both east and west runway sets... What are the main benefits of splitting up traffic like this, how is it prioritized (from a passenger's perspective, there seems to be no real prioritization) and are there any other airports that regularly use a multi-line approach for takeoff?

Image
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3515
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:56 pm

You have traffic coming from the east and west side and its easier to stage and sequence aircraft. Some aircraft are in ground holds. When DFW ATC is cooking (VFR) that line does not last long.
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:57 pm

B787oftheworld wrote:
Dont fly drones around airstrips !


Pretty sure that’s a satellite image!

Most major airports have multiple taxi lanes or separate taxiways to feed departures. ATL has a similar setup, and it probably facilitates the prioritization of traffic when it’s busy or there are flow restrictions over certain departure fixes. Flights departing over fixes without flow restrictions will be able to bypass other traffic and be on their merry way!
 
FX1816
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:02 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:06 pm

fanoftristars wrote:
I've only noticed this at DFW, but there are three distinct lines for takeoff on both east and west runway sets... What are the main benefits of splitting up traffic like this, how is it prioritized (from a passenger's perspective, there seems to be no real prioritization) and are there any other airports that regularly use a multi-line approach for takeoff?

Image



There is absolutely prioritization. This set up would be use to split the SIDS, Departure procedures, so that you can get the departures out as absolutely close as possible. Diverging courses, as long as the turns are 15 degrees or more and wake turbulence is NOT an issue, you can clear them all as close as 6,000' and airborne down the runway. <<A very simplistic description of ATCT operations.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:07 pm

Sometimes its all about traffic flow...Imagine having all those planes having to wait singlefile in one lane...pilots are gonna get anxious. This way the line can always keep moving
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 742
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:10 pm

There is absolute logic. To maximize runway usage and waits for spacing, aircraft are launched with differing departure fixes.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2583
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:12 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Sometimes its all about traffic flow...Imagine having all those planes having to wait singlefile in one lane...pilots are gonna get anxious. This way the line can always keep moving


Anxious pilots has nothing to do with it.

The layout of the taxiways is beneficial for sequencing departures by direction/fix.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:19 pm

fanoftristars wrote:
I've only noticed this at DFW, but there are three distinct lines for takeoff on both east and west runway sets... What are the main benefits of splitting up traffic like this, how is it prioritized (from a passenger's perspective, there seems to be no real prioritization) and are there any other airports that regularly use a multi-line approach for takeoff?



While the DFW apron queuing is unique, many airports use a similar queuing model if they have, say, two distinct taxiways leading to the end of the apron. Likewise, ATC will also position aircraft for an intersection takeoff near the threshold of the runway to facilitate traffic to move quicker (ATL does this for runway 9L/27R ops on the south runway complex, and I've also been observing ORD doing this on FR24 for their new parallel runways).
 
asuflyer
Posts: 759
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:20 pm

goboeing wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Sometimes its all about traffic flow...Imagine having all those planes having to wait singlefile in one lane...pilots are gonna get anxious. This way the line can always keep moving


Anxious pilots has nothing to do with it.

The layout of the taxiways is beneficial for sequencing departures by direction/fix.


This is the correct answer. In cases at DFW when there is WX they will often line up aircraft according to their departure fix. This is because for if one departure fix is shut down they can easily move the aircraft that do not have any route restrictions, or if their is an in-trail restriction they will be able to sequence another aircraft from the queue. Other busy airports use this I can think of JFK, ATL albeit with fewer taxiways but this is common procedure at times.
 
UALFAson
Posts: 1165
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:27 pm

I have experienced this as a passenger several times and it's almost kind of fun. Yes, it does have a bit of a highway traffic jam feel, but when the line next to you moves, then it's your turn, then the other line, it feels like you're making more progress than being in 1 single-file conga line where you have no idea what's happening.

It's wild to see it after a thunderstorm or other long weather delay--you're barreling down the runway for takeoff and looking out your window there dozens of planes stacked 2-3 abreast almost the whole roll.
 
hivue
Posts: 2149
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:11 pm

william wrote:
When DFW ATC is cooking (VFR)


VMC?
 
User avatar
william
Posts: 3515
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:23 pm

hivue wrote:
william wrote:
When DFW ATC is cooking (VFR)


VMC?


Clear weather.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9053
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:36 pm

goboeing wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Sometimes its all about traffic flow...Imagine having all those planes having to wait singlefile in one lane...pilots are gonna get anxious. This way the line can always keep moving


Anxious pilots has nothing to do with it.

The layout of the taxiways is beneficial for sequencing departures by direction/fix.



Exactly, I can guarantee you that waiting in line doesn’t make pilots ‘anxious’ bored maybe but remember we’re paid by the hour, the longer the delay the more the $ rack up


I’ve spent most of my career operating out of the most delay prone airport in the country, #30 for take off is not uncommon, you just wait your turn


Only concern is if you haven’t added enough fuel to allow for this and potentially ending up with less than minimum required at take off


Often this can be resolved by coordinating flight plan adjustments with dispatch to allow a lower fuel number but worst case you’ll have to go back to the gate and add fuel


But that’s unusual, and bad planning !
 
e38
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:39 am

The purpose is to sequence departures over different fixes in order to enhance in-trail separation and improve departure flow.

fanoftristars wrote:
(from a passenger's perspective, there seems to be no real prioritization) and are there any other airports that regularly use a multi-line approach for takeoff?


That's because as a passenger you are not normally listening to air traffic control in order to fully understand how the local controller (tower) is sequencing departures over specific fixes or on different Standard Instrument Departures.

As you mentioned, multiple feed-in taxiways lead in to the primary departure runways at DFW (17R, 35L, 18L, 36R)

In Atlanta, when departing Runway 27R, ATC has the capability to assign taxiways LA, LB, or LC to sequence departures.

At other airports, while there may not be multiple feed-in taxiways to the runway, ATC can use intersection departures to achieve the same goal.

At LAX, when departing 24L, while taxiway E6 is the last taxiway onto the runway, ATC can assign departure from intersections E7 or E8. Similarly, when departing Runway 25R, aircraft are instructed not to proceed beyond Taxiway F until cleared to do so by the Tower. This gives the tower controller the flexibility to depart a subsequent aircraft prior to the aircraft ahead of it in the taxi sequence if feasible to do so.

This can be done--and it is, as necessary--at almost any airport that has multiple taxiways close to the end of the runway--take a look at Runway 18L/36R at Austin (KAUS), Runways 16L/34R and 16R/34L at Salt Lake City (KSLC), Runway 13R/31L at Kennedy (KJFK), and as previously mentioned, Chicago O'Hare (KORD).

e38
 
adipasqu
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:37 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:43 am

e38 wrote:

At LAX, when departing 24L, while taxiway E6 is the last taxiway onto the runway, ATC can assign departure from intersections E7 or E8. Similarly, when departing Runway 25R, aircraft are instructed not to proceed beyond Taxiway F until cleared to do so by the Tower. This gives the tower controller the flexibility to depart a subsequent aircraft prior to the aircraft ahead of it in the taxi sequence if feasible to do so.

This can be done--and it is, as necessary--at almost any airport that has multiple taxiways close to the end of the runway--take a look at Runway 18L/36R at Austin (KAUS), Runways 16L/34R and 16R/34L at Salt Lake City (KSLC), Runway 13R/31L at Kennedy (KJFK), and as previously mentioned, Chicago O'Hare (KORD).

e38


When the tower instructs an aircraft to depart at an intersection rather than the end of the runway, does the pilot have to change anything in the FMS, recalculate performance numbers, etc., or is all of this done in advance in anticipation of any last minute instructions to depart at an intersection so all the pilot has to do is accept the intersection departure? I realize that some intersections will only reduce the amount of runway available for departure by a small amount and won't effect most departures at all, but an E8 intersection departure on 24L at LAX, for example, looks like it takes at least 1000 ft off of the available length relative to the end of the runway and, I assume, needs to be taken into account somehow if the pilots were not expecting it.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2502
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:24 am

adipasqu wrote:
e38 wrote:

At LAX, when departing 24L, while taxiway E6 is the last taxiway onto the runway, ATC can assign departure from intersections E7 or E8. Similarly, when departing Runway 25R, aircraft are instructed not to proceed beyond Taxiway F until cleared to do so by the Tower. This gives the tower controller the flexibility to depart a subsequent aircraft prior to the aircraft ahead of it in the taxi sequence if feasible to do so.

This can be done--and it is, as necessary--at almost any airport that has multiple taxiways close to the end of the runway--take a look at Runway 18L/36R at Austin (KAUS), Runways 16L/34R and 16R/34L at Salt Lake City (KSLC), Runway 13R/31L at Kennedy (KJFK), and as previously mentioned, Chicago O'Hare (KORD).

e38


When the tower instructs an aircraft to depart at an intersection rather than the end of the runway, does the pilot have to change anything in the FMS, recalculate performance numbers, etc., or is all of this done in advance in anticipation of any last minute instructions to depart at an intersection so all the pilot has to do is accept the intersection departure? I realize that some intersections will only reduce the amount of runway available for departure by a small amount and won't effect most departures at all, but an E8 intersection departure on 24L at LAX, for example, looks like it takes at least 1000 ft off of the available length relative to the end of the runway and, I assume, needs to be taken into account somehow if the pilots were not expecting it.

Short answer is "it depends." Some of those intersection scenarios are planned ahead if they're likely, others are likely a few clicks to change, and most operators likely have some constraints on making changes on the fly to reduce errors. Sometimes ATC will suggest something that they know might be a bit out there ("Is there any way you can accept a [xyz] clearance?"), sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask...
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:47 am

adipasqu wrote:
e38 wrote:

At LAX, when departing 24L, while taxiway E6 is the last taxiway onto the runway, ATC can assign departure from intersections E7 or E8. Similarly, when departing Runway 25R, aircraft are instructed not to proceed beyond Taxiway F until cleared to do so by the Tower. This gives the tower controller the flexibility to depart a subsequent aircraft prior to the aircraft ahead of it in the taxi sequence if feasible to do so.

This can be done--and it is, as necessary--at almost any airport that has multiple taxiways close to the end of the runway--take a look at Runway 18L/36R at Austin (KAUS), Runways 16L/34R and 16R/34L at Salt Lake City (KSLC), Runway 13R/31L at Kennedy (KJFK), and as previously mentioned, Chicago O'Hare (KORD).

e38


When the tower instructs an aircraft to depart at an intersection rather than the end of the runway, does the pilot have to change anything in the FMS, recalculate performance numbers, etc., or is all of this done in advance in anticipation of any last minute instructions to depart at an intersection so all the pilot has to do is accept the intersection departure? I realize that some intersections will only reduce the amount of runway available for departure by a small amount and won't effect most departures at all, but an E8 intersection departure on 24L at LAX, for example, looks like it takes at least 1000 ft off of the available length relative to the end of the runway and, I assume, needs to be taken into account somehow if the pilots were not expecting it.


As you say, we try to do it in advance in case we get the intersection. It doesn't matter if you get more runway than you calculated for. No need to recalculate or re-enter in the FM. However, if you get less runway, you must recalculate and re-enter.

It's normally fairly obvious from the taxi chart and previous experience which intersections are likely.

If the calculation shows that we can't use an intersection, we might retry with a different flap setting or other parameter to see if that helps. However, in some cases you just need full length. We tell Ground we will require full length and they figure it out.

It varies a bit by aircraft. On a widebody, you normally need more runway than an A320 or 737. So if you're flying a narrowbody you have more intersections "available" to you. ATC of course knows this and will assign as appropriate.

Requests also come into play. If we see that there are half a dozen aircraft at the end and the first intersection, we might be able to offer to use a second intersection, which could help both us and ATC. Conversely, ATC could ask us early if we can use an intersection, for their planning.

Performance data is entered in the FM before push and start. However, we can change it after. It just requires a bit of time since it needs to be calculated, entered, checked, and briefed. Changing runway data after push needs to be done carefully since we're not in the relatively distraction-free pre-push environment anymore. It is often simpler to tell ATC we need to stop for a couple of minutes instead of going through the process while taxiing.
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:14 pm

When there are large numbers of aircraft in the departure pad in DFW, tower will frequently give a sequence of when the flights will depart. Or some pilot will ask “Sequence?” Tower will rattle off a sequence of flight numbers in the order they intend to launch the flights.

But for DFW departing on the 17s/18s, we just run the performance numbers from Z, and it doesn’t matter what intersection we get. If we ran the numbers for a full length departure, then if we got any of the other two WG/EG or WF/EF intersections then we would have to rerun the takeoff numbers. Running the performance numbers for the WF/EF intersection is also pretty standard if you dont want to run the numbers for the Z intersection takeoff.

Same for the 35s/36s. numbers from A or EP/WP.

The worst takeoff delays I’ve experienced was in JFK. Our airline had just started operating into and out of JFK. And we didn’t know about JFK departure delays that are normal for JFK…. I call the dispatcher.. Hey this taxi fuel of 100lbs? That’s not oing to cut it. I think i need about 500lbs of taxi fuel… and single engine taxi an airplane that has no nose wheel steering and was never designed to taxi single engine. The planned fuel burn for the flight from JFK to PVD/ALB/SYR was only 600lbs. So I needed as much taxi fuel as i needed to actually get to my destination.
 
e38
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:15 am

adipasqu wrote:

does the pilot have to change anything in the FMS, recalculate performance numbers, etc., I realize that some intersections will only reduce the amount of runway available for departure by a small amount and won't effect most departures at all.


adipasqu, at my company, the takeoff data calculation must reflect the actual intersection we intend to use for takeoff. If cleared for takeoff from a position that provides greater length of runway, no adjustment is required; only if the actual takeoff distance will be shorter than what has been calculated. Even a small amount of reduction in runway, as you alluded to above, is not allowed without recalculating.

This is all done during preflight operations and we use varying conventions to input the data . . . airport data in company operations manual, airfield NOTAMS, or, most commonly, crew experience from having operated at that airport. Yes, sometimes we guess wrong and must update our takeoff data prior to departure. Or, sometimes conditions change. If on a taxiway, we simply tell ATC we need to stop or go to a holding point and they are generally accommodating to our request. Occasionally after analyzing takeoff data at the gate prior to taxi, on our initial call to ground control, we state, "require full length," or "require [specific runway]." I have found if you give ATC sufficient notice of a particular request, particularly if they have to coordinate with another ATC function, they are very cordial about honoring your request.

The whole process (takeoff data calculation) is really fairly routine--changes and all--keeping in mind that conditions affecting takeoff date are variable, and despite best preflight planning efforts, change is occasionally inevitable.

e38
 
adipasqu
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:37 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:42 am

LH707330, Starlionblue, Woodreau, and e38, thanks for your responses! In using 18L at DFW as an example, I guess you would never calculate for WF or WG, but for WH as your entry for a "full length" departure in case ATC has you line up on H or G and enter the runway at WF or WG? Or is that entire NW Hold Pad complex treated as the beginning of the runway and the full length regardless of which taxi lane you have lined up on and enter 18L at?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:59 am

I've never been to DFW but looking at the taxi diagram that's a pretty long runway. Unless we were quite heavy, I think we'd first try to calculate with Z. If that didn't result in a workable solution, we'd work our way back through Y, WH, WG and finally WF (full length) until we got something that worked. If Z is really far from feasible, you'd go straight to WH.

The difference between WH, WG and WF looks minimal, to be honest. It would be rare for WF to work but not WH. Then again these things happen. Even a few knots of wind can change things.

"Full length" means "full length". WF only. The performance software does take even those small takeoff run differences between adjacent entry points into account. The distance is measured from the end of the yellow taxi centreline that leads from the entry onto the runway.

Local knowledge is a factor, of course. If you're based there and you've never seen Z or Y used, you'd probably start off with WH.



Image

Yellow curved taxi lines leading onto runway shown below.

Image
Last edited by Starlionblue on Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
e38
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:01 am

adipasqu wrote:
is that entire NW Hold Pad complex treated as the beginning of the runway and the full length regardless of which taxi lane you have lined up on and enter 18L at?


adipasqu, no, at my operator, the three entry points to Runway 18L are calculated using different lengths. As a result, company policy is to use 18L-WH as the standard entry. For Runway 17R, we use 17R-EH.

These will be valid regardless of which position ATC clears you to enter the runway from either the NW or NE hold pads. At DFW, I've never had a problem--or had to recalculate takeoff data--using these entries. Also, I've never been cleared for takeoff, or been asked by ground control or tower, to depart from Taxiways Y or Z on either side.

Standard entry for north flow operations are 36R-WP or 35L-EP, and similarly, I have never been asked, nor departed from taxiway A or B intersections.

e38
 
gloom
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:53 am

Usually there's also a small hint on signs and your FMC.

FMC is able to show calculated takeoff run (in m/ft). On the signs, approaching the taxiway, you'll see runway available at this taxiway (I think that's TODA, but not completely sure). You can easily check if it's enough.
And pilot will always use "unable" if anything is not achievable. ATC will always find a way, then, if he's aware.

For an example, see page 6, https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/912763/RA3516_Issue_2.pdf, Intersection Takeoff signs.

Cheers,
Adam
 
User avatar
Florianopolis
Posts: 369
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:06 am

Is there still a button to push when you roll onto the runway to tell the FMS position that "wherever you think we are right now is the start of the runway" ?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:55 am

Florianopolis wrote:
Is there still a button to push when you roll onto the runway to tell the FMS position that "wherever you think we are right now is the start of the runway" ?


I've never seen such a thing. But I haven't flown that many types, either.

The A350 does tell you "Runway Ahead", and you can see position on the Airport Navigation Function. No pressing of the FM.
 
hitower3
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:55 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:46 am

Hello,

Very interesting thread indeed.
One question regarding waiting times: How much fuel will an airliner, let's say an A320, burn per minute at idle power?

Best regards,
Hendric
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:14 am

hitower3 wrote:
Hello,

Very interesting thread indeed.
One question regarding waiting times: How much fuel will an airliner, let's say an A320, burn per minute at idle power?

Best regards,
Hendric


I don't know the A320 but if memory serves, on the A330 it's about 800kg per hour per engine at ground idle. So in total about 27kg per minute.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:40 pm

BTW shouldn't it be "DFW - You're number ???? for departure." ? ;)

Takeoff should only be used when transmitting or reading back a takeoff clearance.

:stirthepot:
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2207
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:01 pm

Florianopolis wrote:
Is there still a button to push when you roll onto the runway to tell the FMS position that "wherever you think we are right now is the start of the runway" ?


For a time, I flew 737-300s and -500s that had needed a “precision update” (IIRC, that was the term we used, but that was a lot of years ago) by selecting a Line Select Key on the FMC, but that went away with the installation of GPS (again, IIRC).
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:07 pm

On that DFW airport diagram it bothers me that H turns onto the WF lane, and F turns into the WH lane. Just an odd intersection of naming convention. It would make more sense practically (and OCD) for H to turn into WH and F turn into WF.
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:22 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
On that DFW airport diagram it bothers me that H turns onto the WF lane, and F turns into the WH lane. Just an odd intersection of naming convention. It would make more sense practically (and OCD) for H to turn into WH and F turn into WF.


That would work for 18L. But then what would you name them for 36R?

I guess you could add another letter H to WHN (north) and H to WHS.

It’s already confusing using all these letters

“Taxi One Seven Right Kilo Echo Golf”

Taxi One Eight Left Kilo Zulu Point Eight Five over the Bridge”

So instead of using the taxiway designators it’s just:

One Seven Right Inner (for Kilo Echo Golf)
One Seven Right Outer (for Lima Echo Hotel)
One Seven Right Full Length (for Juliet Echo Foxtrot)

One Eight Left Bridge (for Kilo Zulu)


Starlionblue wrote:
BTW shouldn't it be "DFW - You're number ???? for departure." ? ;)

Takeoff should only be used when transmitting or reading back a takeoff clearance.

:stirthepot:


I assume you’re talking about the title

But in actual practice tower just says over the radio:

“Listen up here’s the Sequence American eleven twenty nine, Skywest thirty forty seven, air shuttle forty seven fifteen, delta eleven thirty six, American ten fifteen, envoy thirty one twelve United fifteen fifteen spirit wings eight sixty seven envoy twenty nine thirty one.”

Invariably someone will always go. “Can you repeat that?”
 
atcdan
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:10 am

Woodreau wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
On that DFW airport diagram it bothers me that H turns onto the WF lane, and F turns into the WH lane. Just an odd intersection of naming convention. It would make more sense practically (and OCD) for H to turn into WH and F turn into WF.


That would work for 18L. But then what would you name them for 36R?

I guess you could add another letter H to WHN (north) and H to WHS.

It’s already confusing using all these letters

“Taxi One Seven Right Kilo Echo Golf”

Taxi One Eight Left Kilo Zulu Point Eight Five over the Bridge”

So instead of using the taxiway designators it’s just:

One Seven Right Inner (for Kilo Echo Golf)
One Seven Right Outer (for Lima Echo Hotel)
One Seven Right Full Length (for Juliet Echo Foxtrot)

One Eight Left Bridge (for Kilo Zulu)


Starlionblue wrote:
BTW shouldn't it be "DFW - You're number ???? for departure." ? ;)

Takeoff should only be used when transmitting or reading back a takeoff clearance.

:stirthepot:


I assume you’re talking about the title

But in actual practice tower just says over the radio:

“Listen up here’s the Sequence American eleven twenty nine, Skywest thirty forty seven, air shuttle forty seven fifteen, delta eleven thirty six, American ten fifteen, envoy thirty one twelve United fifteen fifteen spirit wings eight sixty seven envoy twenty nine thirty one.”

Invariably someone will always go. “Can you repeat that?”


This pilot flies in/ out of DFW a lot and understands.

When I was there I would give sequence by destination, which would be funny sometimes when I couldn’t remember the name of the ICAO airport code.

All the answers here are correct, it’s really to make it easier for the tower controllers to depart planes with SIDS that diverge from one another as close as possible to one another.
 
hitower3
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:55 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:31 am

Starlionblue wrote:

I don't know the A320 but if memory serves, on the A330 it's about 800kg per hour per engine at ground idle. So in total about 27kg per minute.


Phew, that is a LOT of fuel! In cruise, one engine (ex. RR Trent 700) will burn roughly 2'700 to 3'000kg/h, only a factor 3,5x more.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:22 am

hitower3 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

I don't know the A320 but if memory serves, on the A330 it's about 800kg per hour per engine at ground idle. So in total about 27kg per minute.


Phew, that is a LOT of fuel! In cruise, one engine (ex. RR Trent 700) will burn roughly 2'700 to 3'000kg/h, only a factor 3,5x more.


It's the nature of this kind of engine. You can't just run on a trickle.

At take-off power, I've seen 8-9 tons an hour per engine. But that's only for a very brief period.
 
User avatar
Strebav8or
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:03 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:54 pm

Take a glimpse at KCLT (Charlotte, NC), at their peak hours. The line-up is massive. From Nation Guard C-17's to 777, A300, 737, A320, and the EMB-135/-145 and CRJ 700's
 
gloom
Posts: 559
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:22 am

Strebav8or wrote:
Take a glimpse at KCLT (Charlotte, NC), at their peak hours. The line-up is massive. From Nation Guard C-17's to 777, A300, 737, A320, and the EMB-135/-145 and CRJ 700's


Sure, but hopefully, it gets better. With progress on computer software, there will be more and more capacity-ahead planning on taxiways/runways. I know it already is a feature on Eurocontrol research, and I'm pretty sure others do have that adressed, too. Waiting at the gate instead of taxiway, taking required engine startup or startup-to-takeoff times into consideration, average taxi times from gate to runway, etc. It can all be calculated pretty accurate. Technology is already there.

Cheers,
Adam
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20761
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:30 am

gloom wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Take a glimpse at KCLT (Charlotte, NC), at their peak hours. The line-up is massive. From Nation Guard C-17's to 777, A300, 737, A320, and the EMB-135/-145 and CRJ 700's


Sure, but hopefully, it gets better. With progress on computer software, there will be more and more capacity-ahead planning on taxiways/runways. I know it already is a feature on Eurocontrol research, and I'm pretty sure others do have that adressed, too. Waiting at the gate instead of taxiway, taking required engine startup or startup-to-takeoff times into consideration, average taxi times from gate to runway, etc. It can all be calculated pretty accurate. Technology is already there.

Cheers,
Adam


The past few years have seen more restrictive off-block time windows and some airports. If you call 15 minutes before your time, you may be told to wait. That way ATC can indeed keep you from sitting on the taxiway burning fuel.
 
atcdan
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:52 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:23 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
gloom wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Take a glimpse at KCLT (Charlotte, NC), at their peak hours. The line-up is massive. From Nation Guard C-17's to 777, A300, 737, A320, and the EMB-135/-145 and CRJ 700's


Sure, but hopefully, it gets better. With progress on computer software, there will be more and more capacity-ahead planning on taxiways/runways. I know it already is a feature on Eurocontrol research, and I'm pretty sure others do have that adressed, too. Waiting at the gate instead of taxiway, taking required engine startup or startup-to-takeoff times into consideration, average taxi times from gate to runway, etc. It can all be calculated pretty accurate. Technology is already there.

Cheers,
Adam


The past few years have seen more restrictive off-block time windows and some airports. If you call 15 minutes before your time, you may be told to wait. That way ATC can indeed keep you from sitting on the taxiway burning fuel.


All true to be sure, the issue I noticed at DFW was that the predominant carrier there scheduled all their arrivals and departures in banks to make for shorter connecting times thus driving up ticket prices in theory.

The issue for ATC is that while the departure rate in VMC may be 96 an hour at DFW, the airline schedules 105 departures in 40 minutes, thus overloading the designed capacity. The beautiful part for them is that any delays can be blamed on ATC/congestion, they are still enjoying higher revenue, and further more the airport is designed and build to flow that many aircraft through especially with the multiple taxiways at DFW.

The FAA only tracks departure delays starting at 15 min from the time the aircraft reaches the departure queue and on a typical day the airport flow is adjusted to not incur any delays. But yes holding at the gate would save a lot of money for the airlines.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2807
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:37 am

Strebav8or wrote:
Take a glimpse at KCLT (Charlotte, NC), at their peak hours. The line-up is massive. From Nation Guard C-17's to 777, A300, 737, A320, and the EMB-135/-145 and CRJ 700's


That place needs to be flattened and rebuilt. The ramp setup simply can’t handle the traffic. I landed there once with an open gate and it took nearly an hour to get to it due to ramp congestion.
 
User avatar
CrewBunk
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:12 am

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:37 am

FlyHossD wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
Is there still a button to push when you roll onto the runway to tell the FMS position that "wherever you think we are right now is the start of the runway" ?


For a time, I flew 737-300s and -500s that had needed a “precision update” (IIRC, that was the term we used, but that was a lot of years ago) by selecting a Line Select Key on the FMC, but that went away with the installation of GPS (again, IIRC).

It was the same thing on the earliest versions of the 767-200. (Same era with no GPS).

If I recall, the aircraft had to be stationary while doing this. There were some airports that using the NAV function for a SID was only allowed if this precision update was done within a certain time before takeoff. ZRH sticks in my mind as the SID required NAV but you barely got enough time in position to do an update. (Yes, our first 767-200ERs were not GPS equipped.)

Airbus had a better setup in its not GPS (but IRS) equipped aircraft. It did an auto update using the runway selected in the FMS when takeoff power was selected. (Our early A310-300s and A320/319s).
 
spiceagent11
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 5:13 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:05 pm

There is absolute logic. To maximize runway usage and waits for spacing, aircraft are launched with differing departure fixes.
 
bigb
Posts: 1417
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:44 am

Alias1024 wrote:
Strebav8or wrote:
Take a glimpse at KCLT (Charlotte, NC), at their peak hours. The line-up is massive. From Nation Guard C-17's to 777, A300, 737, A320, and the EMB-135/-145 and CRJ 700's


That place needs to be flattened and rebuilt. The ramp setup simply can’t handle the traffic. I landed there once with an open gate and it took nearly an hour to get to it due to ramp congestion.


I used to operate out of CLT on the regular and this statement is the truth especially when the airport is in a south configuration. During pushes, you can expect at least a hour of ground time alone. There were times where I had longer ground times in CLT than flight time, CLT is also the only airport I’ve landed a hour early only to be 20 mins late on block in....
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6621
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: DFW - You're number ???? for takeoff!

Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:53 am

CrewBunk wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
Is there still a button to push when you roll onto the runway to tell the FMS position that "wherever you think we are right now is the start of the runway" ?


For a time, I flew 737-300s and -500s that had needed a “precision update” (IIRC, that was the term we used, but that was a lot of years ago) by selecting a Line Select Key on the FMC, but that went away with the installation of GPS (again, IIRC).

It was the same thing on the earliest versions of the 767-200. (Same era with no GPS).

If I recall, the aircraft had to be stationary while doing this. There were some airports that using the NAV function for a SID was only allowed if this precision update was done within a certain time before takeoff. ZRH sticks in my mind as the SID required NAV but you barely got enough time in position to do an update. (Yes, our first 767-200ERs were not GPS equipped.)

Airbus had a better setup in its not GPS (but IRS) equipped aircraft. It did an auto update using the runway selected in the FMS when takeoff power was selected. (Our early A310-300s and A320/319s).


Some Boeing models update the FMC position when you push the TO/GA Switch to engage the Autothrottle for takeoff. The 777 does this, and I believe a few other models do also.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos