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kaitak744
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UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:08 am



What on earth is happening here? Right wing, outboard flap, inner flap fairing. Isn't this a breach of airworthiness to fly without?
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:16 am

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... ck-fairing

Probably just an MEL. I’ve never flown a 747 but I imagine it’s not a big deal.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:16 am

Probably MEL’d to get to a maint base.
 
battlegroup62
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:21 am

No such thing as a breach of airworthiness. An aircraft may be deemed non-airworthy and thus can't fly. There are many parts of an aircraft that can be missing and the aircraft still be airworthy. Its called the Configuration Deviation List or CDL, a list of things that do not have to be working or installed and the aircraft can still be airworthy. Most likely the flap fairing was damaged by a ground vehicle and there was no way to fix it and no spare available. In this case the CDL says take the fairing off and and x percent to the fuel burn calculations.
 
777Mech
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:01 am

kaitak744 wrote:


What on earth is happening here? Right wing, outboard flap, inner flap fairing. Isn't this a breach of airworthiness to fly without?


I've never heard of a breach of airworthiness.
 
777Mech
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:01 am

kaitak744 wrote:


What on earth is happening here? Right wing, outboard flap, inner flap fairing. Isn't this a breach of airworthiness to fly without?


I've never heard of a breach of airworthiness.
 
747-600X
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:03 am

Nope.

All airplanes have a couple of long documents which list parts that can be broken. Internal stuff is part of the Minimum Equipment List, or MEL. External stuff is usually part of the Configuration Deviation List, or CDL. There's also a list of Non-Essential Furnishings (carpet and so on) called the NEF.

Here's an example of what you might find if you were to look up "flap track fairing" in an airplane's CDL:

"One may be partially (aft fairing only) or completely (aft and forward fairing) missing provided:
a) When the forward part of the fairing is missing, the aft part must be removed,
b) When the aft part of the fairing is missing, the forward part may remain installed,
c) The forward part of fairing 4 on the right wing must remain in place (RAT location),
d) PRIOR TO EACH DEPARTURE, inspect the electrical harnesses and interface connectors and flap track assembly lubrication (Log Book Entry Required), and
e) Performance corrections are applied."

That last item ("e") directs a whole host of math problems which have to be done. These, of course, are computerized. In the example given here, the CDL requires an increase in fuel burn of up to 3%, a reduction in total gross weight in the neighborhood of 10,000 lbs., and a reduction in maximum landing weight of about 30,000 lbs. Needless to say, this is the sort of thing which you'd want to get fixed pretty swiftly.
 
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FlySail2015
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:14 am

kaitak744 wrote:

What on earth is happening here? Right wing, outboard flap, inner flap fairing. Isn't this a breach of airworthiness to fly without?


Not everything on an airplane has to be in 100% perfect working order for that plane to be airworthy and flown on revenue flights. We have 3 different publications that detail pretty much everything that can break, and what has to be done by maintenance, the dispatchers, and the crew while it is broken.

These 3 pubs are the Minimum Equipment List (MEL), the Configuration Deviation List (CDL), and the Non-Essential Furnishings List (NEF). In simple terms, the MEL deals with aircraft systems (like an inoperative air conditioning system or a broken APU), the CDL deals with external parts (like a missing winglet, flap fairing, etc), and the NEF deals with internal parts (like inoperative WiFi or a broken armrest).

I'm not a 747 pilot, but considering we have a photo of them flying without a fairing, I would wager that that fairing is on UPS's CDL. It probably says something like "May be missing provided all others are installed/operational" and "must be repaired within X days/flights." There may also be limits on cruise speed, altitude, etc as well.

When the crew got their dispatch release, the CDL reference number would have been listed. They would've then opened their CDL on their EFBs and read through all the restrictions, ensured that the flight was properly filed by the dispatcher in accordance with any mentioned restrictions, and ensured that the maintenance documentation was properly accomplished by the maintainers too. Once everything checks out... time to fly!

Flying with broken/missing stuff doesn't happen on every flight, but it also doesn't happen all that rarely either. But please realize that when I say that, it's important to know that EVERYTHING on an airplane is thoroughly documented. So, it's rarely something big or really important that we go without.

MOST OFTEN it's something as simple as "the armrest in 18D is broken" or "a strip of trim is missing between the carpet and the wall at 9A" or "the reading light in 24C is burned out." But, it could also be "inoperative autopilot" or "engine anti-ice inop" or "first officer's navigation display inop." :-)
 
seven47
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:00 pm

During my time flying the 747, I can recall at least one flight where I was dispatched with a similar CDL (Configuration Deviation List) item. One of the flap fairings (which we called "canoe fairings" due to their resemblance to the boat) was removed, due to being damaged, and the CDL spelled out the procedures and limitations that we were to follow. It's been a while, but I'm guessing that there were minor additional fuel requirements due to increased drag, a MX inspection between each flight, with an associated logbook entry, and maybe a speed restriction (?) Overall, it really wasn't a big deal.
 
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theAviationGeek
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:38 pm

Even happened on the classics back when…




-R
 
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fr8mech
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:22 pm

Damned things get damaged all the time. FOD, ground equipment, gremlins, etc. Take it off and fly the aircraft. Repair the fairing ans install it when you can get the aircraft and fairing back together
 
bigb
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:20 am

I’ve had a flight with a flap fairing missing on the 747. It is a CDL item and usually there is a small fuel penalty for the flight that be calculated for in the flight plan.

Configuration Deviation List (List), is a document tells you what items can be missing and how many before the aircraft is considered air unworthy. When a item is missing and the aircraft can still dispatch, there are procedures listed on how to handle and account for that item prior to dispatch such as: accounting for a weight, speed, or fuel penalties in the flight plan.
 
Woodreau
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:40 pm

The plane can be missing exterior panels, fairings and all sorts of things can be inoperative


But don’t ever take the ashtray off the lavatory door or steal the lav flush handle. The plane is grounded at the point and I have to get a special ferry permit to fly the plane to a place to get the ashtray replaced and lav flush handle replaced if I can’t get it repaired at that location.

It was quite frustrating when the lead FA comes in and say the ashtray is missing and so I go thumbing thru the MEL / NEF to defer the ash tray and it’s not in there. Call maintenance and their reaction is “No they didn’t!!!!”
 
LH707330
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:42 pm

Woodreau wrote:
The plane can be missing exterior panels, fairings and all sorts of things can be inoperative


But don’t ever take the ashtray off the lavatory door or steal the lav flush handle. The plane is grounded at the point and I have to get a special ferry permit to fly the plane to a place to get the ashtray replaced and lav flush handle replaced if I can’t get it repaired at that location.

It was quite frustrating when the lead FA comes in and say the ashtray is missing and so I go thumbing thru the MEL / NEF to defer the ash tray and it’s not in there. Call maintenance and their reaction is “No they didn’t!!!!”

This sort of stuff is really frustrating. I always tell new pilots that "flyable" and "airworthy" are two distinct concepts. Lord knows how important it is that the aft baggage limit placard is in place, but we can fly with an inop standby attitude indicator....
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:02 am

LH707330 wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
The plane can be missing exterior panels, fairings and all sorts of things can be inoperative


But don’t ever take the ashtray off the lavatory door or steal the lav flush handle. The plane is grounded at the point and I have to get a special ferry permit to fly the plane to a place to get the ashtray replaced and lav flush handle replaced if I can’t get it repaired at that location.

It was quite frustrating when the lead FA comes in and say the ashtray is missing and so I go thumbing thru the MEL / NEF to defer the ash tray and it’s not in there. Call maintenance and their reaction is “No they didn’t!!!!”

This sort of stuff is really frustrating. I always tell new pilots that "flyable" and "airworthy" are two distinct concepts. Lord knows how important it is that the aft baggage limit placard is in place, but we can fly with an inop standby attitude indicator....


I've flown without the main screen in front of me as it was MELd. The PFD and ND were displayed on the side screen, at a slight angle. Took a bit of getting used to... :D
 
GSOtoIND
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:37 am

Woodreau wrote:
The plane can be missing exterior panels, fairings and all sorts of things can be inoperative


But don’t ever take the ashtray off the lavatory door or steal the lav flush handle. The plane is grounded at the point and I have to get a special ferry permit to fly the plane to a place to get the ashtray replaced and lav flush handle replaced if I can’t get it repaired at that location.

It was quite frustrating when the lead FA comes in and say the ashtray is missing and so I go thumbing thru the MEL / NEF to defer the ash tray and it’s not in there. Call maintenance and their reaction is “No they didn’t!!!!”

Something tells me a savvy airline would in particular leave spares of such parts at their, ahem, "more exotic" outstations. (Also, can you really not defer the flush handle but you *can* defer the entire lav? How amusing.)
 
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fr8mech
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:47 am

GSOtoIND wrote:
Something tells me a savvy airline would in particular leave spares of such parts at their, ahem, "more exotic" outstations. (Also, can you really not defer the flush handle but you *can* defer the entire lav? How amusing.)


The way it would probably be handled by our maintenance control folks: yes, you can defer the lav per the MEL, but since the handle is still missing, you’ll have to get engineering to authorize flying the aircraft because you’re deviating from the normal configuration.
 
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Horstroad
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:38 am

fr8mech wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
Something tells me a savvy airline would in particular leave spares of such parts at their, ahem, "more exotic" outstations. (Also, can you really not defer the flush handle but you *can* defer the entire lav? How amusing.)


The way it would probably be handled by our maintenance control folks: yes, you can defer the lav per the MEL, but since the handle is still missing, you’ll have to get engineering to authorize flying the aircraft because you’re deviating from the normal configuration.

But there's MEL 9.5

Equipment obviously not required for safe operation of the airplane such as galley equipment, additional safety items as DesiKit, Fire Containment Bag incl.gloves , etc. is not listed.

A flush handle in a MELed lav is obviously not required for safe operation of the airplane.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2540
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:43 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
LH707330 wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
The plane can be missing exterior panels, fairings and all sorts of things can be inoperative


But don’t ever take the ashtray off the lavatory door or steal the lav flush handle. The plane is grounded at the point and I have to get a special ferry permit to fly the plane to a place to get the ashtray replaced and lav flush handle replaced if I can’t get it repaired at that location.

It was quite frustrating when the lead FA comes in and say the ashtray is missing and so I go thumbing thru the MEL / NEF to defer the ash tray and it’s not in there. Call maintenance and their reaction is “No they didn’t!!!!”

This sort of stuff is really frustrating. I always tell new pilots that "flyable" and "airworthy" are two distinct concepts. Lord knows how important it is that the aft baggage limit placard is in place, but we can fly with an inop standby attitude indicator....


I've flown without the main screen in front of me as it was MELd. The PFD and ND were displayed on the side screen, at a slight angle. Took a bit of getting used to... :D

Yeah, it's not bad, we train on that as well, but in terms of flyability I'd much rather have an instrument than a placard.
GSOtoIND wrote:
Something tells me a savvy airline would in particular leave spares of such parts at their, ahem, "more exotic" outstations. (Also, can you really not defer the flush handle but you *can* defer the entire lav? How amusing.)

That one kinda makes sense: better to box out the lav than have people get most of the way through their business and then think "oh [email protected]#$" when the flush handle is inop.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:54 pm

Horstroad wrote:
But there's MEL 9.5


I don’t know what that is.

Horstroad wrote:
A flush handle in a MELed lav is obviously not required for safe operation of the airplane.


Neither is an ashtray, but there you have it. We’re a cargo operator and we can’t fly without an ashtray in anyplace an ashtray is installed.
 
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Horstroad
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:51 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Horstroad wrote:
But there's MEL 9.5


I don’t know what that is.


It's the Preamble of the MEL. The section "Contents of the MEL" describes what is and isn't contained in the MEL and how it has to be treated when it isn't.
For example
Equipment obviously basic to airplane airworthiness such as wings, rudders, flaps, engines,
landing gear, etc. is not listed and must be operative for all flights.


fr8mech wrote:
Horstroad wrote:
A flush handle in a MELed lav is obviously not required for safe operation of the airplane.


Neither is an ashtray, but there you have it. We’re a cargo operator and we can’t fly without an ashtray in anyplace an ashtray is installed.

Emphasis is on safe operation. In the eyes of the authorities a missing ashtray might result in a fire hazard.

I find it kind of funny that at one point they point out the obvious and specify that wings and engines need to be operative as they are basic to airplane airworthiness, and two paragraphs later there's a passage that leaves room for interpretation what is and isn't required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:59 pm

Horstroad wrote:

It's the Preamble of the MEL. The section "Contents of the MEL" describes what is and isn't contained in the MEL and how it has to be treated when it isn't.
For example
Equipment obviously basic to airplane airworthiness such as wings, rudders, flaps, engines,
landing gear, etc. is not listed and must be operative for all flights.


I figured it was the Preamble. The MMEL available on MBF doesn’t have that. I’ll have a peak at it at work tonight. My favorite parts of the preamble are the definition of ‘inoperative’ and the part that says if a system is demonstrably installed on the aircraft then the MEL for that system can be applied even if the aircraft is not specified in the effectivity.

Very important statement when you have a fleet of aircraft going through modifications faster than the MEL can be revised.

I still think our maintenance control folks would balk at a missing component. They’re getting very skittish over there.
 
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Horstroad
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:23 pm

fr8mech wrote:
I figured it was the Preamble. The MMEL available on MBF doesn’t have that. I’ll have a peak at it at work tonight

I never work with the MMEL, I think I never even had a proper look into it. There never was a need to.
But I have an old copy of a MD-11 MMEL from '00 on hand and just skimmed through the preamble. I have to say it's not as refined and easy to read as our customized MEL.
And I couldn't find the exact wording in there.
But it states
It is important to remember that all equipment related to the airworthiness and the operating regulations of the aircraft not listed on the MMEL must be operative.

So I guess that leaves room for the interpretation that everything NOT related to the airworthiness and the operating regulations may be inoperative, even though it's not explicitly declared.
 
twincommander
Posts: 275
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Re: UPS 747 takeoff without flap fairing

Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:48 am

Horstroad wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
I figured it was the Preamble. The MMEL available on MBF doesn’t have that. I’ll have a peak at it at work tonight

I never work with the MMEL, I think I never even had a proper look into it. There never was a need to.
But I have an old copy of a MD-11 MMEL from '00 on hand and just skimmed through the preamble. I have to say it's not as refined and easy to read as our customized MEL.
And I couldn't find the exact wording in there.
But it states
It is important to remember that all equipment related to the airworthiness and the operating regulations of the aircraft not listed on the MMEL must be operative.

So I guess that leaves room for the interpretation that everything NOT related to the airworthiness and the operating regulations may be inoperative, even though it's not explicitly declared.


It depends on how the airline writes their MEL/NEF/CDL manuals. It's not automatically assumed that the manufacture has captured any and all failures or deficiencies, but bad tech pub writers think that since there is an MMEL from the manufacture, all they need to do is copy and paste their logo on the front matter.

I've earned alot of OT due to poorly written MEL's or having a non safety of flight issue that has no guidance in the AMM, MEL, or NEF.

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