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docmtl
Topic Author
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:37 am

Embraer is proposing the E3 TP as a versatîe platform for different engine designs. For those with aeronautical engineering background:

Would the wings’ design be as efficient regardless of the choice of engines on the back: turboprop, hybrid-electric, hydrogen, even jet turbines ?

Just in case Embraer would offer a scope-compliant plane with a choice of jet engines on the back

It would be a smart move: Do you want a TP? Got it. Would you rather have a scope compliant jet ? Sure, we’ve got it, too.

I asked the question in the Civil Aviation Forum, but maybe this is the right place to find the answer.

:-)
 
Woodreau
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Re: Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:20 am

Embraer already did this with the EMB-145... stretched an EMB-120 and put on a different wing taking off the turboprop engines and bolting on two turbofans engines in the rear.. i believe there is about 75% parts commonality with the EMB-120.
 
Nean1
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:46 pm

Woodreau wrote:
Embraer already did this with the EMB-145... stretched an EMB-120 and put on a different wing taking off the turboprop engines and bolting on two turbofans engines in the rear.. i believe there is about 75% parts commonality with the EMB-120.


There is little similarity between the EMB-120 and the ERJ-145. In the development of the CBA-123, the structure and systems of the EM-120 have already been significantly changed. The CBA appears to be the foundation for the ERJ-145.
 
docmtl
Topic Author
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Re: Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Wed Sep 29, 2021 3:09 am

The question remains unanswered, though:

Could the E3 design (wings, weight, etc) allow for either a turboprop or a turbofan and still be a competitive platform on either category ?

I hope someone’s got the answer…

Docmtl
 
CowAnon
Posts: 365
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Re: Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:50 pm

No aeronautical engineering background here, but I'll give this a shot:

  • Scope-compliant turbofan w/std fuel -- no, given that wing-mounted is more efficient, but nobody has been able to make it work with newer engines.
  • Non-scope-compliant turbofan w/std fuel -- maybe, as long as no other competitors emerge and Embraer doesn't try to grow it into a direct CS220-100 competitor.
  • Scope-compliant and noncompliant turboprop w/std fuel -- probably viable, since that seems to be what Embraer's going for, although I haven't seen exactly what scope compliance means for a turboprop (other than it differs from turbofan requirements).

But even if the aft turbofan scenario doesn't work out, I think Embraer ought to hedge its bets by also having aft-engined aircraft. Remember that Boeing dumped the 717 in 2004-2005, even as fuel costs were rising. (I believe 1999-2000 was the bottom for oil prices.) If that aft-engine design were still available later in the decade, it probably would've been an easy decision for Boeing to stretch the old DC9/MD80-heritage configuration to 150-180 seats, do a proper rewing, and add open-rotor engines to finally damage/kill off Airbus's A320. That would've produced a better outcome than what happened with Boeing indecisive about a clean-sheet plane, then forced to approve the 737 MAX. If engines in the back is the proper setup for electric or hydrogen power, then Embraer should follow through with the E3.
 
Nean1
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:52 pm

docmtl wrote:
Embraer is proposing the E3 TP as a versatîe platform for different engine designs. For those with aeronautical engineering background:

Would the wings’ design be as efficient regardless of the choice of engines on the back: turboprop, hybrid-electric, hydrogen, even jet turbines ?

Just in case Embraer would offer a scope-compliant plane with a choice of jet engines on the back

It would be a smart move: Do you want a TP? Got it. Would you rather have a scope compliant jet ? Sure, we’ve got it, too.

I asked the question in the Civil Aviation Forum, but maybe this is the right place to find the answer.

:-)


I'm not an aeronautical engineer. I work for a large oil company and have been following Embraer very closely for at least 25 years.

Modern aircraft must respond to strict safety requirements while meeting immense pressure for low costs.

To begin with I must say that I am very skeptical about the alternatives of electric or hydrogen powered aircraft. It seems to me to be a flawed bet both in economy and in flight safety.

Ill-advised rulers are taking steps that can easily double energy costs. I think that stagnant economy, high inflation and high energy bills will at some point bring these elegant people back into the real world.

Returning to Embraer's dilemma, I don't believe that they change the engine, proposing a turbofan aircraft with a lower cruising speed, taking advantage of the same wings. I don't see this light yet efficient turbofan, it would be an acknowledgment that they made a wrong bet and possibly their finances would be badly shaken.

It's noticeable that the E3 project is gaining traction, certainly because potential and important customers are approving, the technology seems mature enough and the production costs make sense.

If the project is successful, I hope that Embraer will continue its long-held dream of competing in the single-aisle aircraft segment. Imagine an E3 on a larger scale, with 5 rows of seats and equipped with CFM RISE? Is it dreaming too much?
 
Flaps
Posts: 1815
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: Embraer E3 turboprop: Same airplane platform, either with TP or jet engines

Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:36 pm

I would think at this stage the only people that could answer that question would be the Embraer engineers on that program

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