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convair880mfan
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Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 am

Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:08 pm

I am not a pilot, so what appears to be a real "nail biter" might be completely normal. What do you pilots think of this video. It does provide a nice view of a standing takeoff .https://youtu.be/_RKa0_Qr1s4
 
Woodreau
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:16 pm

Looks just like taking off from Las Vegas when OAT is 46C... That's also the first time you ever notice there is a wall at the end of the runway in Las Vegas. - even though you've taken off that same runway for many years.

As long as the ASDR is 0 or greater, the aircraft has the takeoff performance for the runway. I believe when ASDR is 0 - that is balanced field length. - meaning you can accelerate all the way to V1, reject the takeoff, and come to a stop right at the end of the runway. It's all fuzzy until it's time to do recurrent.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:27 pm

ASDR = TORR/TODR is BFL. Close, but not unusual for a quad. I’ve seen C-5 take-offs that were almost like that, dust off the overrun. LETO with munitions at 35F, run be cover a minute. About 12,000’ on 13,500’ of TORA.
 
convair880mfan
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:28 pm

I'll have to look up those abbreviations, but I do appreciate your comments. I would think, and I could be wrong, that your numbers would have to be pretty accurate. What I mean is there seems to be little room for error if you underestimated your load, if your weight and balance was off or if you rotated too soon or too late or at the wrong rate. Thinking here of Aerosucre Flight #157.

To those of you who are experts, do you think this was why the pilots in the video did a standing takeoff, namely, to make sure that they were getting all the thrust they needed out of those JT3Ds without using up runway in the process. Or am I wrong again?

Obviously those pilots in the video I shared had all their numbers right.

For Woodreau, I would think it isn't a very good idea to have a wall at the end of a runway.

For GalaxyFlyer. I envy you being able to be a pilot of the C-5 Galaxy.

Because of the rule about losing an engine during takeoff, I guess all four-engined jetliners are a little sluggish compared to twins. I think the exception is the Boeing 720B which had a good thrust to weight ratio for an airliner, at least according to pilot and teacher, D.P. Davis:

"The 747 is certificated as a Performance Group A four engined aeroplane. It meets all the U.K. requirements and will do everything claimed for it and scheduled in the Flight Manual...So the aeroplane's airworthiness performance is of course good. But if by 'performance' one means does it get up and go -- well, its no 720B. Maximum continuous thrust is needed at very high weights to show a gross gradient of 4% in the second segment of a noise abatement departure procedure." (1)
_________________
(1) D. P. Davis. Handling the Big Jets. London. Civil Aviation Authority, 1967. p.260
 
113312
Posts: 704
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:09 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:35 pm

That is a maximum weight balanced field takeoff. I've done plenty like that in the 727-200, DC-8-63 and others. I will not repeat them here, but look at the performance requirements for a transport aircraft and in particular what is expected if an engine fails after V-1.
 
convair880mfan
Topic Author
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:09 pm

Thanks so much 113312. I really appreciate it!

When I was a teenager I read a lot of books on how to be a flight engineer, how to ace the F/E test for the B727, tricks for passing the 727 F/E written exam and so on. I read them but did not study them, did not memorize them, did not take the practice tests.

A kind heart FedEx Flight Engineer took me aboard a 727 being serviced in Albuquerque. He tried to explain the F/E panel to me in terms a young person with no knowledge and experience could understand, tried to show the logic of how the various systems were arranged, how the scan flow went. He explained little things to me like "valve in transit" lights, paralleling generators, bus ties and bus tie breakers, what popped circuit breakers looked like, press to test slat position indicators and stuff.

The plane was externally powered so I actually saw the lights on the panel go on, go on and off, change color. Blue, red and amber. He tried to explain the logic of things. What does declining quantity but not low pressure mean? What would indicate a clogged filter. What would indicate a leak or stuck valve? I thought he was the smartest man in the world. It was so amazing to a young person like me. A memory I treasure to this day.

A Continental Airlines Flight Attendant in El Paso took me along for his walk-around of a Boeing 727-100, showing me what he was looking at and looking for. His name was Skip.. I wrote to Continental Airlines to commend him and they wrote me back to thank me for my praise.

This was all before 9/11. Never got to ride jump seat on any airliner. Although it was before 9/11, security was starting to ramp up because of hijackings. It was amazing to walk around the Boeing 727. It seemed huge to me at the time. When the F/E was walking around the 27 he looked on the ground under the wing. I naively asked him what he was looking for. He said "Drips that shouldn't be there." What a great time to be young and interested in airliners!
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5947
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Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:56 am

I've never flown an airliner from that era, but that initial acceleration was pathetic.

I couldn't hear a V1 call, but given the slow acceleration I suspect decision speed would have happened waaaay before rotation and I doubt that an engine failure after that would have allowed for a safe takeoff given that they barely had enough runway with all 4 engines running.

I doubt that runway was balanced and this seems to me more of a 'let's just hope nothing fails' kind of takeoff that are still a thing with certain operators in certain parts of the World, or at least were back in the days.

And the noise in that cockpit... Are there any former 707 pilots out there that don't need hearing aids?

Those guys weren't paid enough.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8591
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:56 pm

My experience with an under-powered quad, that looks sorta normal. The engineer did the data in letter size sheet paper and included all engines and OEI data-all engine run was usually not very much shorter than OEI and often limited by 115% of AEO run. That TO was closer than 115% but rotate technique, engine wear, etc could account for it. Or, yes, “we always make it”.
 
Redbellyguppy
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:57 am

Re: Was this Boeing 707 takeoff dangerous or only appears so to a non-pilot?

Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:34 am

V1 call happens at 2:24

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