Dear Colleagues,
I am a Retired Airline Captain, who's doing a study on the use of the Visual Descent Point.
I kindly ask you to participate in an anonymous survey that I uploaded in "Google Forms".
With the first click you go to https://goo.gl/forms/VDIP3lhvACpO4btz1
With the second click you can choose the answer you think is correct.
The scenario is as follows: you are on your company's aircraft, in a NPA ( non-precision approach ). When you arrive at the VDP, your visibility allows you to see the terrain, but not the approach lights or the Runway.
With the third click you can respond to the same question, but in a different scenario: you are on a sport aircraft, either owned or rented, and your free choice is not subject to your company's procedures.
With the fourth click (on the coloured button at the bottom left), you submit your answers.
It will only take a few minutes, but your answers will be very useful for this in-depth study.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
Just for your tranquility an example of what google sends me:
1 - a cake with percentages
2 - The list of answers with relative percentage
3 - For each answer it displays what the choices have been, and at the end of the date and time.
Nothing else!
The purpose is not to know what Mr. X responded, but to obtain, through the percentages, as the pilots behave in general, if they were in that situation.
Question: Do you need?
Reply; I think so.
Taking the attached cake
We imagine, for example, that the response with 45.5% is the right one; All the others, for a total of 54.5%, are incorrect.
Is not the case to deepen, in the general interest, what is the objectively better procedure to comply with the authority, and flight safety organizations, dictates ?
We will have to wait a few days to make sure you have received the maximum number of answers (and this is in all of you), then I will give you my study in the study.
Even if you are convinced that the solution that will prove to you what exact is incorrect for you, maybe you can objectively rethink if you really actually your point of view is the best.
All this with the utmost modesty on my part.
Ciao
1 - a cake with percentages
2 - The list of answers with relative percentage
3 - For each answer it displays what the choices have been, and at the end of the date and time.
Nothing else!
The purpose is not to know what Mr. X responded, but to obtain, through the percentages, as the pilots behave in general, if they were in that situation.
Question: Do you need?
Reply; I think so.
Taking the attached cake
We imagine, for example, that the response with 45.5% is the right one; All the others, for a total of 54.5%, are incorrect.
Is not the case to deepen, in the general interest, what is the objectively better procedure to comply with the authority, and flight safety organizations, dictates ?
We will have to wait a few days to make sure you have received the maximum number of answers (and this is in all of you), then I will give you my study in the study.
Even if you are convinced that the solution that will prove to you what exact is incorrect for you, maybe you can objectively rethink if you really actually your point of view is the best.
All this with the utmost modesty on my part.
Ciao
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
GPilota wrote:Just for your tranquility an example of what google sends me:
1 - a cake with percentages
A cake? Chocolate cake? Does it taste good.
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
Gpilota (topic author), at my operator--major airline in the United States--non precision approaches (LOC, VOR, NDB) and the associated VDP calculation/discussion are no longer part of the training curriculum.
Several years ago, yes, these approaches were taught in the initial training program in the simulator (even the NDB approach for certain fleets) and during recurrent training, the pilots had to demonstrate proficiency in flying a Localizer approach.
No longer. These have all been replaced by the RNAV (GPS) and RNAV (RNP) approaches.
The circling approach is no longer part of the training curriculum for any fleet either.
e38
Several years ago, yes, these approaches were taught in the initial training program in the simulator (even the NDB approach for certain fleets) and during recurrent training, the pilots had to demonstrate proficiency in flying a Localizer approach.
No longer. These have all been replaced by the RNAV (GPS) and RNAV (RNP) approaches.
The circling approach is no longer part of the training curriculum for any fleet either.
e38
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
Dear AirKevin, you're right. I've been barking up the wrong tree; it was Pie-chart-data in stead of Cake.
I am sorry, English is not my language.
Dear e38 I understand that you are flying in a major, with a state-of-the-art super equipped airplane and use international and important airports, but the world is big and many have to do with smaller, non-sophisticated and up-to-date airplanes and airports.
Moreover, if you browse Jeppesen or Lido or NavThec-JetBlue, etc, you will find many airports with NPA-only runways in the world.
If you, kindly, want to collaborate in my research, you could invite airliner ( or GA ) colleagues - who instead have the opportunity to approach LOC, VOR, NDB etc. - to participate in my survey. Many Thanks.
Ciao
Gianni
I am sorry, English is not my language.
Dear e38 I understand that you are flying in a major, with a state-of-the-art super equipped airplane and use international and important airports, but the world is big and many have to do with smaller, non-sophisticated and up-to-date airplanes and airports.
Moreover, if you browse Jeppesen or Lido or NavThec-JetBlue, etc, you will find many airports with NPA-only runways in the world.
If you, kindly, want to collaborate in my research, you could invite airliner ( or GA ) colleagues - who instead have the opportunity to approach LOC, VOR, NDB etc. - to participate in my survey. Many Thanks.
Ciao
Gianni
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
There may be plenty of airports with NPA. But if the airline is not authorized for NPAs then there is no opportunity to fly LOC VOR or NDB approaches.
It is the same at my carrier. We are not authorized to fly LOC VOR NDB. So no VDP to calculate or make a decision about
It is the same at my carrier. We are not authorized to fly LOC VOR NDB. So no VDP to calculate or make a decision about
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
Very interesting to read that some airlines are not certified to fly conventional NPAs. In my career so far I have been working for four different companies in Asia and Europe so far and conventional NPAs, even though mostly flown as RNAV overlays (and as CDFAs, I.e. without the level off at MDA), are still very common. In one charter company we even did a lot of visual approaches to Greek islands. Now I’m just starting with an other European airline and my new home base only has an instrument approach on one runway, if you need to land in the other directions it’s a (daytime only) circling approach due to terrain. So it seems a bit strange to me that some airlines completely switched to RNAV.
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Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
Flow2706 wrote:Very interesting to read that some airlines are not certified to fly conventional NPAs. In my career so far I have been working for four different companies in Asia and Europe so far and conventional NPAs, even though mostly flown as RNAV overlays (and as CDFAs, I.e. without the level off at MDA), are still very common. In one charter company we even did a lot of visual approaches to Greek islands. Now I’m just starting with an other European airline and my new home base only has an instrument approach on one runway, if you need to land in the other directions it’s a (daytime only) circling approach due to terrain. So it seems a bit strange to me that some airlines completely switched to RNAV.
I suppose it depends what and where you fly.
With a widebody only fleet and flying to relatively major airports, you're not going to see circling approaches and such. Given the lack of practice it makes sense just not to approve their use.
If you fly turboprops to smaller airports, the situation is reversed.
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
I know majors avoid circling and NPA, but many other pilots have almost a daily use of this kind of approach.
The United States is certainly ahead with the use of 3D and RNAV procedures, but my research is worldwide.
A good number of readers have already taken part in the survey.
I would like to thank these first participants and invite others to follow their example.
The higher the number of answers, the more precise the results will be.
It is a study that I find interesting and useful; I'll be waiting.
Thanks.
Gianni.
The United States is certainly ahead with the use of 3D and RNAV procedures, but my research is worldwide.
A good number of readers have already taken part in the survey.
I would like to thank these first participants and invite others to follow their example.
The higher the number of answers, the more precise the results will be.
It is a study that I find interesting and useful; I'll be waiting.
Thanks.
Gianni.
Re: Survey: Visual Descent Point
First of all, I would like to thank the colleagues who participated in the survey and sent hundreds useful feedbacks.
The results reported in the chart (updated until today, with some responses still on the way), confirm that it was a good decision to set up my studies on the current procedures related to VDP.
The chart shows that for both, airlines and private/recreational/sport flights, all available procedures are somewhat used.
Depending on the kind of flight, the procedure adopted for the VDP changes: for instance, Pilots working for a Company comply with procedures given by the Company, while in a private flight the Pilot is more free to decide how to proceed.
I think the reason behind these different scenarios is that the Pilots are coached but not properly schooled/trained.
For airlines flights, Pilots comply with the SOP and Manuals’ instructions, but they don’t seem to have understood (or it might be they have not been fully explained) the reasons behind those instructions (why they have to proceed in a way and not in another).
In other writings, I reported 2 examples of school that are not teaching the correct procedure. One of them added on its website a wrong formula, and, although 3 readers suggested to correct it, nothing has been done so far.
Looking forward to reading your comments!
Kind regards
The results reported in the chart (updated until today, with some responses still on the way), confirm that it was a good decision to set up my studies on the current procedures related to VDP.
The chart shows that for both, airlines and private/recreational/sport flights, all available procedures are somewhat used.
Depending on the kind of flight, the procedure adopted for the VDP changes: for instance, Pilots working for a Company comply with procedures given by the Company, while in a private flight the Pilot is more free to decide how to proceed.
I think the reason behind these different scenarios is that the Pilots are coached but not properly schooled/trained.
For airlines flights, Pilots comply with the SOP and Manuals’ instructions, but they don’t seem to have understood (or it might be they have not been fully explained) the reasons behind those instructions (why they have to proceed in a way and not in another).
In other writings, I reported 2 examples of school that are not teaching the correct procedure. One of them added on its website a wrong formula, and, although 3 readers suggested to correct it, nothing has been done so far.
Looking forward to reading your comments!
Kind regards