Does anyone know why AI is flying sub-optimal routes to/from NA. After closure of Afghan airspace, AI started flying over Iran adding considerable flying time to their North American routes. Air Canada and United continue to fly the shorter route that involves crossing Afghan airspace and as a result flights to the same destination are shorter on the North American carriers. Point of comparison:
1. DEL - ORD: AI 127 ~ 16 hours 20 mins v/s UA 899 ~ 14 hours 20 mins
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ai127
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ua899
2. DEL- YYZ: AI 187 ~ 15 hours 50 mins v/s AC 43 ~ 14 hours
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ai187
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac43

Now the strange part is this news article stating AI will use Afghan airspace for India - Europe/NA flights: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 891184.cms and AI does use the Afghan airspace on DEL-LHR/FRA/CDG/IAD routes - basically all routes flown by the Dreamliner.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ai103
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ai111

Why is Air India comfortable flying over Afghan airspace only with the Dreamliner and not with their 777s while AC and UA continue to fly the shorter route?

It's likely that 777 cannot achieve the required flight level over Afghanistan.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

It's likely that 777 cannot achieve the required flight level over Afghanistan.

That's likely not the reason, as UA802 (DEL-EWR) is operated by a 77W and overflies Afghanistan every day.

I've also noticed that UA and AI use very different routes for DEL-SFO with UA being about 1000mi shorter and a bit faster too. Any idea why? They use similar routes for SFO-DEL although AI avoids Afghan airspace.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL ... /VIDP/KSFO
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AIC ... /VIDP/KSFO

Afghanistan provides limited ATC service, most of which is still non-radar i believe. This means non-radar separation across their airspace. (10 minutes in trail separation on the same airway, same altitude). This, combined with the westbound demand at night, is why you need to apply for slots before crossing Afghanistan airspace during that time. Could simply be that AC and UA have the slots, and AI doesn't. Or that AI routinely misses their slot times, and therefore has to reroute, while UA and AC don't.

If the issue is with AI's 777s only, then it could be that the triple seven can't climb to the approved slot altitudes that early in the flight, while the 787 can.

Read the following BOBCAT (Bay of Bengal Cooperative Air Traffic Flow management) document.

https://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2011 ... %20_2_.pdf

It appears more so that AI is doing their best to avoid Russian airspace, I can't imagine the extra added time really helps save that much money.

Oddly enough AI is still scheduling the block time as if they are transiting Afghan and Russian airspace.

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:

lhrsfosyd wrote:

It's likely that 777 cannot achieve the required flight level over Afghanistan.

That's likely not the reason, as UA802 (DEL-EWR) is operated by a 77W and overflies Afghanistan every day.

= Not all 77W's are created equal, and lhrsfosyd may as well be accurate.

Saludos,
Alex

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Afghanistan provides limited ATC service, most of which is still non-radar i believe. This means non-radar separation across their airspace. (10 minutes in trail separation on the same airway, same altitude). This, combined with the westbound demand at night, is why you need to apply for slots before crossing Afghanistan airspace during that time. Could simply be that AC and UA have the slots, and AI doesn't. Or that AI routinely misses their slot times, and therefore has to reroute, while UA and AC don't.

If the issue is with AI's 777s only, then it could be that the triple seven can't climb to the approved slot altitudes that early in the flight, while the 787 can.

Read the following BOBCAT (Bay of Bengal Cooperative Air Traffic Flow management) document.

https://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2011 ... %20_2_.pdf

The same issue exists on the way back as well. EWR/ORD/SFO/JFK - DEL on AI's 777s do not use Afghan airspace whereas DEL-IAD-DEL on 788 does. So its definitely not related to how fast a 777 can climb. Could it be due to different aircraft insurance and flying over the Afghan airspace means a higher premium?

abrelosojos wrote:

= Not all 77W's are created equal, and lhrsfosyd may as well be accurate.

Saludos,
Alex

All 77W's have the same engines.....

At AAL the 772 as configured is prohibited from being subbed for the 77W to VIDP, not due to performance but rather the unique terrain West of the Himalayas and associated supplemental oxygen requirements.

yashk wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Afghanistan provides limited ATC service, most of which is still non-radar i believe. This means non-radar separation across their airspace. (10 minutes in trail separation on the same airway, same altitude). This, combined with the westbound demand at night, is why you need to apply for slots before crossing Afghanistan airspace during that time. Could simply be that AC and UA have the slots, and AI doesn't. Or that AI routinely misses their slot times, and therefore has to reroute, while UA and AC don't.

If the issue is with AI's 777s only, then it could be that the triple seven can't climb to the approved slot altitudes that early in the flight, while the 787 can.

Read the following BOBCAT (Bay of Bengal Cooperative Air Traffic Flow management) document.

https://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2011 ... %20_2_.pdf

The same issue exists on the way back as well. EWR/ORD/SFO/JFK - DEL on AI's 777s do not use Afghan airspace whereas DEL-IAD-DEL on 788 does. So its definitely not related to how fast a 777 can climb. Could it be due to different aircraft insurance and flying over the Afghan airspace means a higher premium?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The following link (particularly second-last para) gives some information:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 379074.cms

What facilities are providing ATC service within Afghan airspace? Is however that’s structured different than it was before the Taliban overrun the country?

Within Afghanistan - I heard at work it was Dubai controllers who were doing it under "contract"
Along the G500/P550 (the single airway carved out from the US Prohibition), our discussions at work are that's being controlled by Dushanbe ATC.

[list=][/list]

dispatchguy wrote:

Within Afghanistan - I heard at work it was Dubai controllers who were doing it under "contract"
Along the G500/P550 (the single airway carved out from the US Prohibition), our discussions at work are that's being controlled by Dushanbe ATC.

Well that’s interesting. Do you have any notion as to by whom they are contracted? Do the airlines pay the cost? Under the circumstances, Afghanistan certainly is in no position to so do.

To the best knowledge of anyone: How/does this differ before the Americans left?

If applicable, do we know how many seats UA blocks on EWR-DEL 77W?

rjsampson wrote:

[list=][/list]

dispatchguy wrote:

Within Afghanistan - I heard at work it was Dubai controllers who were doing it under "contract"
Along the G500/P550 (the single airway carved out from the US Prohibition), our discussions at work are that's being controlled by Dushanbe ATC.

Well that’s interesting. Do you have any notion as to by whom they are contracted? Do the airlines pay the cost? Under the circumstances, Afghanistan certainly is in no position to so do.

To the best knowledge of anyone: How/does this differ before the Americans left?

I crossed Afghanistan while the Americans controlled the airspace and there were no limitations on routes other than traffic or military operations. All airways were open, not all had radar coverage. At F450, no limits.