Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
learning2fly
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:44 am

22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:47 am

Hello Pilots,

I am currently a 22 year old CFI who passed PPL first time, IFR rating second time, Commercial Pilots License first time and CFI-A first time. After being signed off for CFII, I have busted that check ride twice. I know at this point I have definitely caused damage to my record and name but I would like an honest opinion from people in the industry on if its worth it to me to continue to instruct and go to the airlines or I probably will have issues finding a job.

CFII- Busted twice once on the ground for DPE saying (I was vague but right) second time on the flight for full scale glideslope deflection after failing to descent to glide slope interception altitude which was seriously in nervousness for an approach I flew 20+ times. This has been a lifelong dream and these checkride fails are not a representation of me.

Advice Would be appreciated!

Thank You!
 
Busyboy2
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:57 am

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:09 am

Don't worry about that. Youll be fine. I've failed rides and now fly for a major US airline. Its like failing a class at university. Not the end of the world. Lick your wounds and move on. Attitude is more important at Airlines.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20958
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:17 am

As Busyboy2 says, attitude counts. If you've managed to get back from failure, and internalised the applicable learning experience, that can even be a positive.

Pilot training inherently confronts people with being imperfect. I'd be worried flying with someone who thinks that mistakes are a terrible failing.
 
User avatar
southwest1675
Posts: 1667
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:03 am

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:25 am

My CFI is a United captain. He failed his Private and CFI rides. He said it actually helped him in the interview process, because he was able to show the recruiters how he faced adversity during training, and became a better pilot.
 
e38
Posts: 918
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:35 am

learning2fly wrote:
I know at this point I have definitely caused damage to my record and name


learning2fly, no, I don't think this has caused damage to your record and name; almost everyone busts a checkride during a career in aviation.

The most important thing is to be honest about it during an interview. Don't place the blame on the examiner; accept responsibility, and tell the interviewer what you learned from this experience and how it can help you improve as a pilot.

When you state, "This has been a lifelong dream."

Are you talking about becoming an airline pilot or earning your CFII?

If it is becoming an airline pilot, airlines do not require candidates to possess either a CFI or CFII. If this is your career goal, perhaps consider continuing your work as a CFI and at the appropriate time, move on to the regionals and/or majors.

If it earning your CFII, talk to your instructor, figure out what the deficiencies were, and then get back up and press on! Your prior ratings (PPL, Instrument, CFI) indicate you have the skills to earn the CFII; you've just had a momentary blow to your confidence.

You'll be fine. You can do this.

e38
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20958
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:55 am

I'll add that learning to control your nervousness is a learned skill, not something innate. In large part, it comes with experience.

I'm definitely calmer during a proficiency check now compared to my initial few times!
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4575
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:34 am

I am just a lawyer and a PPL student. My FI, an LH Captain and Examiner, brought me on the edge several times. First I was frustrated and felt stupid, but after the landing beer with him I realised why he did it.

When I flew first, the engine failure practice freaked me out. Now I automatically scan for a field and in many instances get there.

Failing a check is bad for the ego. Failing it twice is bad, too. But reflecting why it happened and trying to learn it is the vital part, in my opinion. It is also the difficult part, no one likes to be criticised. Acceptance to learn from failures makes you better. This requires, however, that you know what went wrong. This seems to be the case in your example.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16742
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:55 am

learning2fly wrote:
Hello Pilots,

I am currently a 22 year old CFI who passed PPL first time, IFR rating second time, Commercial Pilots License first time and CFI-A first time. After being signed off for CFII, I have busted that check ride twice. I know at this point I have definitely caused damage to my record and name but I would like an honest opinion from people in the industry on if its worth it to me to continue to instruct and go to the airlines or I probably will have issues finding a job.

CFII- Busted twice once on the ground for DPE saying (I was vague but right) second time on the flight for full scale glideslope deflection after failing to descent to glide slope interception altitude which was seriously in nervousness for an approach I flew 20+ times. This has been a lifelong dream and these checkride fails are not a representation of me.

Advice Would be appreciated!

Thank You!


I have been flying commercially for longer than you have been alive, even today every flight I do I make multiple mistakes. These mistakes are not significant, sometimes I pick it up, sometimes the other crew member does. When I make a mistake, I fix it, and get on with the job.

If you decide to keep flying, I can guarantee if you are honest with yourself you will make numerous mistakes each flight, you will fix them and get on with it. When you have a couple of thousand mistakes under your belt you will look back on this and wonder what all the fuss was about.

As for your second ride, what were your options at full deflection ? Could you have captured the slope from above ? Could you execute the standard missed ? Would you need to descend to conduct the standard missed? I’m asking these questions as it was probably the first time you were in that situation, and what you can do in that situation is not in any book, the books tend to assume we are all perfect pilots.

Personally if you didn’t descend on the slope, recognised the error, and flew yourself safely around for another approach (in coordination with ATC) I would not have failed you.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27010
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:21 pm

After the incidents with a couple "old school" DPEs that were passing some folks under questionable circumstances, some DPEs have gotten hyper technical and are busting people almost for a quote. The airlines know this and they also know they face a massive pilot shortage. Don't worry about it. Just buckle down, build hours and help keep our skies safe by teaching new pilots. You'll get a job.
 
boacvc10
Posts: 583
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:31 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:45 pm

What a fantastic collective response from the a.net community!
 
learning2fly
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:44 am

Re: 22 year old CFI

Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:25 am

e38 wrote:
learning2fly wrote:
I know at this point I have definitely caused damage to my record and name


learning2fly, no, I don't think this has caused damage to your record and name; almost everyone busts a checkride during a career in aviation.

The most important thing is to be honest about it during an interview. Don't place the blame on the examiner; accept responsibility, and tell the interviewer what you learned from this experience and how it can help you improve as a pilot.

When you state, "This has been a lifelong dream."

Are you talking about becoming an airline pilot or earning your CFII?

If it is becoming an airline pilot, airlines do not require candidates to possess either a CFI or CFII. If this is your career goal, perhaps consider continuing your work as a CFI and at the appropriate time, move on to the regionals and/or majors.

If it earning your CFII, talk to your instructor, figure out what the deficiencies were, and then get back up and press on! Your prior ratings (PPL, Instrument, CFI) indicate you have the skills to earn the CFII; you've just had a momentary blow to your confidence.

You'll be fine. You can do this.

e38


My dream has always been to become an airline pilot. I worked very hard with college to do my bachelors in Business and flight school together. Everything was going well except for my CFII was a disaster. I felt like crap and I definitely do not want to give up. I am working with different instructors to get assessed with different opinions and fine tune my instrument teaching skills. My biggest and main concern is, is this going to be a deal breaker at the majors? I have heard majors only hire with one failure or max 2. I have three.

Thank You!
 
learning2fly
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:44 am

Re: 22 year old CFI

Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:35 am

Busyboy2 wrote:
Don't worry about that. Youll be fine. I've failed rides and now fly for a major US airline. Its like failing a class at university. Not the end of the world. Lick your wounds and move on. Attitude is more important at Airlines.


I definitely do not want to give up. Is it hard to get hired with 3 GA busts at the majors?

Thanks!
 
Woodreau
Posts: 2215
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: 22 year old CFI

Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:49 pm

In the current hiring environment you will not have an issue getting hired at a regional airline.

While being a regional airline pilot is not your goal, your training record at the regional airline will become more important than your GA training record

People fail their initial CFI or CFII check rides all of the time. But don’t establish a record of failing 121 training while working for a 121 air carrier.

There aren’t enough regional airline pilots to satisfy the major airline hiring demand in the upcoming future. You may not end up at the major airline that you want but you will eventually get there if that is what you want to do.

Don’t focus on the failure itself. Focus on learning from the failure. that is what the interviewers are looking for and how you went forward from the failure.

By its nature interviewing for an airline the questions are design to find out what negative experiences you’ve had. The interviewers are not really interested about the negative experience you’ve had but how you handle it. Do you blame others for your experience. Do you learn from them and improve yourself. You want to show that you are resilient. But not make up answers to show what you think they’re looking for.

So you have heard that people don’t get hired with 2 failures and you have 3. So what?

You are not the person who decides to hire you. No one here decides to hire you. Only the hiring person at the airline decides. The only way to get to that person is to apply and get to the interview.

The point is is that you have to apply at the airline in order to get an interview. Don’t take yourself out of consideration because of what others people say. If you want to work at a major airline you’ll have to apply. Don’t let anyone discourage you from getting to where you want to go. Keep working on it until you get where you want to be.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 20958
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:11 am

learning2fly wrote:
Busyboy2 wrote:
Don't worry about that. Youll be fine. I've failed rides and now fly for a major US airline. Its like failing a class at university. Not the end of the world. Lick your wounds and move on. Attitude is more important at Airlines.


I definitely do not want to give up. Is it hard to get hired with 3 GA busts at the majors?

Thanks!


To add to what Woodreau is saying, worry about the majors later. Too far in the future. Worry about the regionals now.

Just like no one cares about your grades in high school when you're interviewing for a job in your forties, no one cares about the specifics of your GA training record if you've worked for a regional for five years without major issues.
 
e38
Posts: 918
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:01 pm

learning2fly wrote:
I have heard majors only hire with one failure or max 2. I have three.


learning2fly, be very careful about believing certain phrases you often hear, such as:

"I have heard . . ." From whom? Are they a credible source or just a link in the rumor chain?

"They said . . ." Who is "they?"

"Majors only hire . . ." All of them? One of them? Do you think the hiring criteria is the same for every major airline?

You get where I'm going with this. Try not to get caught up in this--these statements usually carry little, if any, validity, and can be very discouraging and disheartening.

As Woodreau stated above in Reply # 13, don't decide whether or not you'll get hired based on your record. Just go ahead and apply to the airlines and let THEM decide whether or not they want to hire you. All airlines do not have the same criteria concerning hiring practices, and most hiring practices are not "absolute;" i.e., most are not going to say something like, "well, two checkride failures are ok, but three are not." Instead, reputable airlines are going to look at the "whole person"--education; leadership; flight experience; training; how adverse situations, i.e., abnormal flight situations or failed checkrides, were handled; personality (could this person someday be a good Captain for us); perhaps extra curricular activities and/or community involvement, and so on. Let them value you based upon your own merit.

So, go to the interviews with confidence, self-assurance, a good personality, a great attitude, enthusiasm, and especially honesty should questions come up about your training, and let them make the decision.

And, learning2fly, you may get turned down by a company or two. That is OK! Should that happen, get back up and keep trying.

As they say in basketball, "You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take." So, apply to the airlines, take the shot! And, if you miss the first shot, take another, and another. Keep trying. Don't give up.

e38
 
Yikes!
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 4:51 pm

Re: 22 year old CFI

Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:17 am

learning2fly:

I don't post often but I've been a contributor on this forum since the 1990's. As a young pilot, airlines (regional, national, international) are more interested in your attitude and your work history rather than marks achieved on written tests or check rides that have been less than stellar. Keep doing what you've been doing and be honest with your failures - they are HUGE learning opportunities. If you can do this for the rest of your career (whatever it happens to be), you will be successful. During prospective airline interviews, do what the Jungle Book character says: "Accentuate the positive!"

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: adipasqu, AirBoat, DiamondFlyer, thepinkmachine and 16 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos