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CanukinUSA
Topic Author
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:06 pm

GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:02 pm

The latest approach chart revisions have new GLS approaches for KSFO. Hopefully that will shorten delays when traffic gets back to normal and enable some better noise and environmental procedures for KSFO now for GLS equipped aircraft.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:53 pm

Hate to burst your bubble, but we've had GLS procedures here at IAH for about 10 years and only the sCO NG's and the newest delivered a/c were equipped so not much help in the flow during low weather as they already had Special RNP procedures here in place and were all qualified (sCO planes and crews) to fly those. So few are able to play in that arena doubt it will help SFO at all. Sure, a great vision for the future and will allow for similar if not the same minima as well as exact data on the flight deck as an ILS, but gotta have the a/c equipped and crews trained.

If you overlay the existing approach procedures and IF the FAA would allow, as ATC simply clear the flight for an approach to the runway ("cleared Runway 28R approach)")and let them fly whatever procedure they want (ILS, RNAV RNP, GLS, RNAV GPS, etc.,) as long as the lateral and vertical tracks are the same who cares what they fly!! But there are those such as the FAA and others groups who don't like that simple side of things. :banghead:
 
bluecrew
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:13 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:16 pm

Never really caught on in Newark either. They've been published for probably ten years... N90 still uses the ILS or visuals all day.

Edit: Also... looked up the actual charts in question. They're no more efficient... they're the exact same lateral track as the ILS. So... great for when the ILS goes out... otherwise these will never be used.

But hey it gives FlightCheck the business!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Sun Dec 05, 2021 6:05 pm

bluecrew wrote:
But hey it gives FlightCheck the business!


:rotfl: FLC now that's a sure thing, they can certainly use the business in the one or two planes that can actually fly a GLS approach.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27009
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:37 pm

There's literally no difference in the GLS 28R and ILS 28R. Same fixes and everything. Same with the RNAV (GPS) Z 28R, which thousands of GA planes can fly to the same minima as the 787s, 748s and 737s that are equipped with GLS (has LH put GLS in their A350s now?). These are not going to reduce noise or anything like that, but they will provide robustness in the system and remove issues with sensitivity.
 
Jungleneer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:56 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:18 pm

GLS will only pick up when multi band GPS satellites are available and allow CAT2 and CAT3 approaches. When this happens, it will replace ILSes very fast. Currently, there is not much demand due to CAT1 only constraints for GBAS, and LPV is cheaper and easier for the areas where SBAS coverage are available.
The scintillation issue in the ionosphere specially in Southern Hemisphere, and other reliability issues, delayed GLS deployment by several years.
 
CanukinUSA
Topic Author
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:40 am

I agree with everyone it is only a start at KSFO and a slow one at that but it has only taken 5 years to get the GBAS/GLS Ground station going. Hopefully they can get the special approaches going that were researched back in 2016 soon. The approaches researched are much more complicated and better for Noise restriction etc.then the starting GLS overlays that just were published are. For details go to:
https://laas.tc.faa.gov/documents/Docs/ ... Dec_16.pdf
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6753
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:37 am

Jungleneer wrote:
GLS will only pick up when multi band GPS satellites are available and allow CAT2 and CAT3 approaches. When this happens, it will replace ILSes very fast. Currently, there is not much demand due to CAT1 only constraints for GBAS, and LPV is cheaper and easier for the areas where SBAS coverage are available.
The scintillation issue in the ionosphere specially in Southern Hemisphere, and other reliability issues, delayed GLS deployment by several years.


The 777-9 is going to be certified for CAT 3 GLS autoland approaches. It’s an optional feature available in the Option Catalog. It will detect and degrade to a NO AUTOLAND status if GBAS GAST D level of service degrades to GAST C. It’s not that far off.
 
Jungleneer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:56 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:04 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
GLS will only pick up when multi band GPS satellites are available and allow CAT2 and CAT3 approaches. When this happens, it will replace ILSes very fast. Currently, there is not much demand due to CAT1 only constraints for GBAS, and LPV is cheaper and easier for the areas where SBAS coverage are available.
The scintillation issue in the ionosphere specially in Southern Hemisphere, and other reliability issues, delayed GLS deployment by several years.


The 777-9 is going to be certified for CAT 3 GLS autoland approaches. It’s an optional feature available in the Option Catalog. It will detect and degrade to a NO AUTOLAND status if GBAS GAST D level of service degrades to GAST C. It’s not that far off.


Great to see that GAST-D is moving forward. But as far as I know, there is not any GAST-D available for service in the world, there is?
Also, heard that new GPS satellites have been deployed by US lately.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4438
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:15 pm

I will totally agree with having an RNP initial segment to a GLS final is something that is very helpful since the GLS minima is lower.

Here at IAH I've seen numerous RNP approaches to either RWY 26R or RWY 9 where the FAF is on the downwind where ATC considers the aircraft established on final and thus is able eliminate the requirement for vertical separation until established on final during dual/triple independent ops which completely reduces flight track miles. Watching ADS-B exchange you'll see an A320 or an E175 on downwind in front of a B738 or any of the RNP capable aircraft on the B738 turns well inside of the non-RNP capable aircraft who is still truckin' along on downwind. A huge improvement and reduces workload on the final controller.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2112/0546 ... ddest=(IAH)

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2112/0546 ... ddest=(IAH)
 
N47
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:38 pm

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:19 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
But hey it gives FlightCheck the business!


:rotfl: FLC now that's a sure thing, they can certainly use the business in the one or two planes that can actually fly a GLS approach.


Good point!

With all the VOR MON, frequency changes and other work going on in the NAS flight check is pretty busy as is. Plus as you said not all planes are equipped to actually do GLS checks. The Sacramento FIFO that would normally do these checks have the older learjets that are probably not equipped, which means they would probably do them out of OKC.

GLS approaches do come in handy when ILS is out to those that can fly them anyway.
 
N47
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:38 pm

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:27 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
GLS will only pick up when multi band GPS satellites are available and allow CAT2 and CAT3 approaches. When this happens, it will replace ILSes very fast. Currently, there is not much demand due to CAT1 only constraints for GBAS, and LPV is cheaper and easier for the areas where SBAS coverage are available.
The scintillation issue in the ionosphere specially in Southern Hemisphere, and other reliability issues, delayed GLS deployment by several years.


The 777-9 is going to be certified for CAT 3 GLS autoland approaches. It’s an optional feature available in the Option Catalog. It will detect and degrade to a NO AUTOLAND status if GBAS GAST D level of service degrades to GAST C. It’s not that far off.


I am curious how the certification process will work since in the US CAT 2 or 3 GLS approaches have not yet been certified by the FAA, and as far as i know there are no plans to certify them in the near future either. Unless they certify both the ground equipment and the aircraft simultaneously.

Do you have a source on this? I would like to get smarter.
 
Jungleneer
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:56 am

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:36 am

N47 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
GLS will only pick up when multi band GPS satellites are available and allow CAT2 and CAT3 approaches. When this happens, it will replace ILSes very fast. Currently, there is not much demand due to CAT1 only constraints for GBAS, and LPV is cheaper and easier for the areas where SBAS coverage are available.
The scintillation issue in the ionosphere specially in Southern Hemisphere, and other reliability issues, delayed GLS deployment by several years.


The 777-9 is going to be certified for CAT 3 GLS autoland approaches. It’s an optional feature available in the Option Catalog. It will detect and degrade to a NO AUTOLAND status if GBAS GAST D level of service degrades to GAST C. It’s not that far off.


I am curious how the certification process will work since in the US CAT 2 or 3 GLS approaches have not yet been certified by the FAA, and as far as i know there are no plans to certify them in the near future either. Unless they certify both the ground equipment and the aircraft simultaneously.

Do you have a source on this? I would like to get smarter.


You do not need to fly necessarily CAT2 or CAT3 procedures to certify the CAT3 operation for a given model. CAT3 Autoland certification envolves a number (thousands) of high fidelity approach simulations in desktop plus a number of approaches (usually 100 approaches) in any aerodrome. Therefore, you could theoretically certify a CAT3 Autoland operation without any procedure available in the world.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6753
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: GLS Approaches Published by FAA in KSFO

Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:18 am

N47 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Jungleneer wrote:
GLS will only pick up when multi band GPS satellites are available and allow CAT2 and CAT3 approaches. When this happens, it will replace ILSes very fast. Currently, there is not much demand due to CAT1 only constraints for GBAS, and LPV is cheaper and easier for the areas where SBAS coverage are available.
The scintillation issue in the ionosphere specially in Southern Hemisphere, and other reliability issues, delayed GLS deployment by several years.


The 777-9 is going to be certified for CAT 3 GLS autoland approaches. It’s an optional feature available in the Option Catalog. It will detect and degrade to a NO AUTOLAND status if GBAS GAST D level of service degrades to GAST C. It’s not that far off.


I am curious how the certification process will work since in the US CAT 2 or 3 GLS approaches have not yet been certified by the FAA, and as far as i know there are no plans to certify them in the near future either. Unless they certify both the ground equipment and the aircraft simultaneously.

Do you have a source on this? I would like to get smarter.


The source on this is that I work on the 777-9 program so I know what’s on the airplane. I’m more familiar with the airplane equipage, so not as up to speed on satellite capability as the other poster mentioned. Like I said, CAT 3 GLS is an available option on the 777-9. It was supposed to be certified on the 737-10 also, but that was postponed to focus on higher priority product improvements.

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