FlyingJhawk wrote:

I didn't see this posted here. Looks like two separate incidents with AC at two different airports. How often does this happen and is it a bit more "newsworthy" because it a MAX?

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/det ... 38.article

kaitak wrote:

Sounds very much like a dispatcher error; its his/her job to make sure that the payload goes where it's supposed to go and feed that information in to generate a loadsheet.

I don't know what system AC uses, though I'm sure it's automated, for an airline of that size. They will have a central load control team (CLC) who will generate an LIR (load instruction report); it's the dispatcher's job to ensure that load is put where it should be and then, when the head loader comes back with the LIR properly completed (saying where the bags are and how many), he/she will enter that into a system which will generate a loadsheet. As the saying goes - GIGO ... garbage in, garbage out. The load is planned by CLC to produce the optimum MACTOW, to ensure that the aircraft is trimmed, primarily for safety and secondly, for economics. BUT, if the information going in is wrong, the aircraft will not be trimmed properly and that has the result you see with the AC flights.

It can be extremely dangerous and it wouldn't be a surprise if the dispatcher was asked to consider a different career ...

Here's an example of a report where things were done incorrectly, on an ATR72: http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/ ... -002_0.pdf

777luver wrote:

kaitak wrote:

Sounds very much like a dispatcher error; its his/her job to make sure that the payload goes where it's supposed to go and feed that information in to generate a loadsheet.

I don't know what system AC uses, though I'm sure it's automated, for an airline of that size. They will have a central load control team (CLC) who will generate an LIR (load instruction report); it's the dispatcher's job to ensure that load is put where it should be and then, when the head loader comes back with the LIR properly completed (saying where the bags are and how many), he/she will enter that into a system which will generate a loadsheet. As the saying goes - GIGO ... garbage in, garbage out. The load is planned by CLC to produce the optimum MACTOW, to ensure that the aircraft is trimmed, primarily for safety and secondly, for economics. BUT, if the information going in is wrong, the aircraft will not be trimmed properly and that has the result you see with the AC flights.

It can be extremely dangerous and it wouldn't be a surprise if the dispatcher was asked to consider a different career ...

Here's an example of a report where things were done incorrectly, on an ATR72: http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/ ... -002_0.pdf

At AC they are called Lead Station Attendants. It's hard to mess up a loadsheet instruction though. You simply follow the instructions and load it, then do as you stated. It's a big responsibility and I'm sure someone is getting a talking to

rampbro wrote:

777luver wrote:

kaitak wrote:

Sounds very much like a dispatcher error; its his/her job to make sure that the payload goes where it's supposed to go and feed that information in to generate a loadsheet.

I don't know what system AC uses, though I'm sure it's automated, for an airline of that size. They will have a central load control team (CLC) who will generate an LIR (load instruction report); it's the dispatcher's job to ensure that load is put where it should be and then, when the head loader comes back with the LIR properly completed (saying where the bags are and how many), he/she will enter that into a system which will generate a loadsheet. As the saying goes - GIGO ... garbage in, garbage out. The load is planned by CLC to produce the optimum MACTOW, to ensure that the aircraft is trimmed, primarily for safety and secondly, for economics. BUT, if the information going in is wrong, the aircraft will not be trimmed properly and that has the result you see with the AC flights.

It can be extremely dangerous and it wouldn't be a surprise if the dispatcher was asked to consider a different career ...

Here's an example of a report where things were done incorrectly, on an ATR72: http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/ ... -002_0.pdf

At AC they are called Lead Station Attendants. It's hard to mess up a loadsheet instruction though. You simply follow the instructions and load it, then do as you stated. It's a big responsibility and I'm sure someone is getting a talking to

100%. You don't accidentally put all the bags in the front. Sometimes the estimates are wrong and there's way more or fewer bags. Given the fact they only loaded the front, likely the latter in this case. Go talk to the pilot or call Ops.
Does AC have it's own rampers at LAX or does it use a contractor? I should probably give myself three guesses on that and the first two don't count.

737MAX7 wrote:

FlyingJhawk wrote:

I didn't see this posted here. Looks like two separate incidents with AC at two different airports. How often does this happen and is it a bit more "newsworthy" because it a MAX?

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/det ... 38.article

It happens more than you’d think. Only newsworthy because they are MAX’s. Had a ferry flight one time show up with 140 bags on it that were still supposed to be at PIT.

rampbro wrote:

777luver wrote:

kaitak wrote:

Sounds very much like a dispatcher error; its his/her job to make sure that the payload goes where it's supposed to go and feed that information in to generate a loadsheet.

I don't know what system AC uses, though I'm sure it's automated, for an airline of that size. They will have a central load control team (CLC) who will generate an LIR (load instruction report); it's the dispatcher's job to ensure that load is put where it should be and then, when the head loader comes back with the LIR properly completed (saying where the bags are and how many), he/she will enter that into a system which will generate a loadsheet. As the saying goes - GIGO ... garbage in, garbage out. The load is planned by CLC to produce the optimum MACTOW, to ensure that the aircraft is trimmed, primarily for safety and secondly, for economics. BUT, if the information going in is wrong, the aircraft will not be trimmed properly and that has the result you see with the AC flights.

It can be extremely dangerous and it wouldn't be a surprise if the dispatcher was asked to consider a different career ...

Here's an example of a report where things were done incorrectly, on an ATR72: http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/ ... -002_0.pdf

At AC they are called Lead Station Attendants. It's hard to mess up a loadsheet instruction though. You simply follow the instructions and load it, then do as you stated. It's a big responsibility and I'm sure someone is getting a talking to

100%. You don't accidentally put all the bags in the front. Sometimes the estimates are wrong and there's way more or fewer bags. Given the fact they only loaded the front, likely the latter in this case. Go talk to the pilot or call Ops.
Does AC have it's own rampers at LAX or does it use a contractor? I should probably give myself three guesses on that and the first two don't count.

Exrampieyyz wrote:

Worked on the ramp for over 30 years and saw quite a few "Cat G" incidents. (Never found out why they called it that). A Cat G was when the flight left with a load discrepancy (I think) of more than 500lbs or some certain percentage of MAC (mean aerodynamic chord) error.

Exrampieyyz wrote:

Worked on the ramp for over 30 years and saw quite a few "Cat G" incidents. (Never found out why they called it that). A Cat G was when the flight left with a load discrepancy (I think) of more than 500lbs or some certain percentage of MAC (mean aerodynamic chord) error. Meant some sort of disciplinary action. A "Cat i" was a lessor error.
I once parked a Dash 8 and the Capt. came back and asked me to count the bags as I off loaded. ( We always count out bound but never inbound). Seemed the auto pilot wouldn't stay engauged because it couldn't feed in enough nose down trim. They had to hand fly pushing on the yoke the whole flight. YSB - YYZ about an hour.
Another time LHR couldn't find a pallet that we loaded on the upper deck of a 747-233 SCD Combi. My Lead was looking at disciplinary action, but asked, well if we didn't send it what did we send because the flight never went out with empty positions. Again we never checked inbound pallet numbers, but he drove out to where we dropped off the inbound pallets and found it sitting there. LHR had off loaded that pallet and then had re-boarded it by mistake back to YYZ.
Never worked a MAX but pretty hard to load the wrong compartments on a non container flight. Maybe miscounting but the load sheet is pretty simple in. DC-9s and 727s were usually nose heavy full of people so aft compartments where loaded first and the load sheet would look something like this.

C1 nil

C2 overflow

Wing

C3 2nd/80 bags

C4 1st/32 bags

Pretty hard to misinterpit that!!

zeke wrote:

I don’t have the facts before me it is possible in both cases the aircraft was within the normal CG band.

What would have been out was the stabiliser setting for takeoff with the resulting unusual control feel.