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Boxwing
Topic Author
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:09 pm

Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:23 pm

Hello everyone,

after quickly reading about the Tu-204 on wiki, I was stunned to learn that the Tupolev Tu-204 supposedly needs no anti-icing system. Unfortunately, I was not able to find any other (helpful) information how Tupolev accomplished this. The wiki source of the information is no help either, so I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the non-existing wing anti-icing system of the Tu-204.

The wings and tails are relatively resistant to ice build-up, and as such anti-icing systems are not equipped. Among today's airliners the Tu-204 is the only one which does not require wing anti-icing systems. During the test flight safety has been confirmed without the anti-icing system on the bearing surfaces and the aircraft obtained Russian and European certificates.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-204#Technology

Thank you very much for your help.
Boxwing
 
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77west
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:52 am

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:53 am

Boxwing wrote:
Hello everyone,

after quickly reading about the Tu-204 on wiki, I was stunned to learn that the Tupolev Tu-204 supposedly needs no anti-icing system. Unfortunately, I was not able to find any other (helpful) information how Tupolev accomplished this. The wiki source of the information is no help either, so I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the non-existing wing anti-icing system of the Tu-204.

The wings and tails are relatively resistant to ice build-up, and as such anti-icing systems are not equipped. Among today's airliners the Tu-204 is the only one which does not require wing anti-icing systems. During the test flight safety has been confirmed without the anti-icing system on the bearing surfaces and the aircraft obtained Russian and European certificates.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-204#Technology

Thank you very much for your help.
Boxwing


Sounds a bit dodgy to me. With all due respect to Russian technology, they would be the last manufacturer I would think would have advanced technology to the point of being able to avoid physics.
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 8483
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:42 pm

77west wrote:
Sounds a bit dodgy to me. With all due respect to Russian technology, they would be the last manufacturer I would think would have advanced technology to the point of being able to avoid physics.


Oh, I don’t know that they’re avoiding physics. Maybe it’s the routing of the pneumatic supply duct that obviates the need for an active anti-ice system. EASA certified it, so there’s something there.

I’d be interested to know what that “something” is.
 
thepinkmachine
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:43 pm

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:16 pm

If I remember correctly, C-5 also wasn’t equipped with anti-ice system, as it was deemed unnecessary

Where is @GalaxyDriver, when you need them… :D
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9179
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:47 pm

Right here! Yes, only engine anti-ice installed. Never an issue, with the TF-39 engines, it probably couldn’t fly above 10,000’ if WAI was installed. It was a big, fat wing and not an abundance of bleed air.

The A-10 had no anti-ice, engine or cowls. Ice would build up on the gun, the BDU practice bombs, the pylons, the wings. Sometimes, MX would have to change out a damaged fan blade.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:38 am

I imagine that the particular wing profile influences how easily ice will accumulate. No idea how this factors in this particular case.
 
Boxwing
Topic Author
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:40 pm

Thank you very much for all your replies. However, I don't feel any closer to solving the solution. It may be the routing of ducts, I agree.

How come the A-10 and C-5 didn't have any anti-ice? Wouldn't any ice affect the airfoil significantly?
 
N1120A
Posts: 27238
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:28 am

I know some Navajo pilots who say that plane never got FIKI certification because the wing can carry so much ice that it doesn't matter lol
 
aeropix
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:08 pm

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:33 am

Well, many airliners are not fully protected in any case. Aerodynamic engineers discovered that large radius leading edges are not prone to ice build up and they do not protect those areas. minimizing anti-icing systems saves both weight and energy, and thus fuel. So it is not surprising that perhaps the TU-204, owing to the specific shape of its wing, may not need any ice protection as it may simply not be prone to ice buildup in the first place. Probably, this seemingly "free" advantage, comes at the cost of having an overall less efficient wing shape.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 876
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:47 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Right here! Yes, only engine anti-ice installed. Never an issue, with the TF-39 engines, it probably couldn’t fly above 10,000’ if WAI was installed. It was a big, fat wing and not an abundance of bleed air.

The A-10 had no anti-ice, engine or cowls. Ice would build up on the gun, the BDU practice bombs, the pylons, the wings. Sometimes, MX would have to change out a damaged fan blade.


Does any fighter have flight surface anti-ice system? The F-4 had only engine anti-ice which prevented ice from forming around the engine compressor section like guide vanes and bullet. The T-38, as you might remember, was prohibited from flying in forecast icing conditions because it had zero protection even for the engine.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:54 pm

I doubt it, the Hun has something like the F-4 for the engine.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2280
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Wed Jan 19, 2022 6:05 pm

Boxwing wrote:
Thank you very much for all your replies. However, I don't feel any closer to solving the solution. It may be the routing of ducts, I agree.

How come the A-10 and C-5 didn't have any anti-ice? Wouldn't any ice affect the airfoil significantly?


IIRC, Boeing originally proposed that the 777 not have airframe anti-ice/de-ice systems. That is, the airfoil with it's large radius leading edge was not susceptible to airframe icing. However, the launch customers - especially UAL - objected to that and required wing anti-ice/de-ice be installed. As it is, only the middle slats of the wing leading edges can be heated (so the outer and inner leading edges aren't heated) and the tail is not heated either.
 
vc10
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Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:09 pm

Just for information the Concorde had no airframe anti-icing. The heating mats on the under side of the wing were part of the engine deicing system. I was told that they did extensive flights behind a spray aircraft , but could not get any ice build up on the wing
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:21 pm

The Saberliner didn't have wing anti ice initially but you could get ice.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 9179
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:25 pm

CosmicCruiser wrote:
The Saberliner didn't have wing anti ice initially but you could get ice.


I only flew the Sabre 65 with the wing that heard ice was in the area would stall. We turned on the WAI lots after the two crashes.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2557
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

Re: Tu-204 requiring no anti-icing system

Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
CosmicCruiser wrote:
The Saberliner didn't have wing anti ice initially but you could get ice.


I only flew the Sabre 65 with the wing that heard ice was in the area would stall. We turned on the WAI lots after the two crashes.

Yep, different wing. I just flew a -40 & -60.

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