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GalaxyFlyer
Topic Author
Posts: 10021
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:50 pm

Something in draft, but working thru the ARC process. Includes this gem,

Pilots must have the proficiency to manually fly the aircraft at any time (even for the entire flight), without the aid of automated systems.9





https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs ... d_Copy.pdf
 
benjjk
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:20 pm

3.2.2.1 An air carrier’s line operations policy should permit and encourage MFO and should incorporate the following:

1. Encouragement to manually fly the aircraft when conditions permit, including, at least periodically, the entire departure and arrival phases and potentially the entire flight, if/when practicable and permissible.


Certain airlines around the world would have a fit at the thought of their pilots not engaging autopilot seconds after takeoff. Hopefully this FAA advice will seep through to them.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3790
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:20 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Something in draft, but working thru the ARC process. Includes this gem,

Pilots must have the proficiency to manually fly the aircraft at any time (even for the entire flight), without the aid of automated systems.9





https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_docs ... d_Copy.pdf

Bureaucratic interpretation after few iterations:
pilot must be able not to use restroom for the duration of the flight.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27418
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:19 am

They're right here. Pilots should absolutely have the proficiency to hand fly the entire flight. And they should he proficient with flying the aircraft with the automation and understand how they interact.
 
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zeke
Posts: 17418
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Sun Feb 13, 2022 2:30 pm

benjjk wrote:
3.2.2.1 An air carrier’s line operations policy should permit and encourage MFO and should incorporate the following:

1. Encouragement to manually fly the aircraft when conditions permit, including, at least periodically, the entire departure and arrival phases and potentially the entire flight, if/when practicable and permissible.


Certain airlines around the world would have a fit at the thought of their pilots not engaging autopilot seconds after takeoff. Hopefully this FAA advice will seep through to them.


We would never be able to fly an entire flight without an autopilot on, many departures and arrivals require autopilot use, as does RVSM airspace.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2578
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:16 pm

zeke wrote:
benjjk wrote:
3.2.2.1 An air carrier’s line operations policy should permit and encourage MFO and should incorporate the following:

1. Encouragement to manually fly the aircraft when conditions permit, including, at least periodically, the entire departure and arrival phases and potentially the entire flight, if/when practicable and permissible.


Certain airlines around the world would have a fit at the thought of their pilots not engaging autopilot seconds after takeoff. Hopefully this FAA advice will seep through to them.


We would never be able to fly an entire flight without an autopilot on, many departures and arrivals require autopilot use, as does RVSM airspace.


It says when conditions permit. We experienced this years ago when a few little issues arose when crews HAD to fly manually. At that point the co. said exactly what this says, when conditions exist, hand fly the jet.
 
FlapOperator
Posts: 925
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:07 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:31 pm

zeke wrote:

We would never be able to fly an entire flight without an autopilot on, many departures and arrivals require autopilot use, as does RVSM airspace.


That's kind of chicken-and-egg arguments. We certainly CAN fly in RVSM airspace or an approach or departure...the autopilot doesn't generate lift.

We CHOSE to operate the autopilot in those segments for the safety value, and have made it regulatory.
 
SteelChair
Posts: 1834
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:14 pm

When filing the flight plan strip with items on deferral that no longer allow RVSM or RNP the "slashes and dashes" are modified to communicate the degraded capability to ATC. ATC then knows to increase separation because no human can fly with the same precision as the automation. These deferrals can be a problem at very busy airports.

I find it mildly ironic that certain pilots support this AC. Hand fly the entire route? Does this mean you'll take the plane when all autopilots are on deferral? I haven't seen that happen in many years, and even then only on a short flight, generally back to a maintenance base.

This appears to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Why write into the AC a requirement that will never, in actuality, be done?
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:43 pm

SteelChair wrote:
When filing the flight plan strip with items on deferral that no longer allow RVSM or RNP the "slashes and dashes" are modified to communicate the degraded capability to ATC. ATC then knows to increase separation because no human can fly with the same precision as the automation. These deferrals can be a problem at very busy airports.

I find it mildly ironic that certain pilots support this AC. Hand fly the entire route? Does this mean you'll take the plane when all autopilots are on deferral? I haven't seen that happen in many years, and even then only on a short flight, generally back to a maintenance base.

This appears to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Why write into the AC a requirement that will never, in actuality, be done?


Maybe for a long haul carrier, but at my regional, you would probably get called to the chief pilots office for refusing an airplane for lack of an autopilot (without further mitigating circumstances). It's not uncommon to have pilots that want to hand fly an entire leg here or there. As long as their able to do it, I don't really care.
 
Yikes!
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2001 4:51 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:17 am

N1120A wrote:
They're right here. Pilots should absolutely have the proficiency to hand fly the entire flight. And they should he proficient with flying the aircraft with the automation and understand how they interact.


Agree in principle but when considering associated workloads (auto thrust, navigation systems, ETOPS, extended length flights (medium and long hauls), a moderate level of automation is a must.
 
N1120A
Posts: 27418
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:00 pm

Yikes! wrote:
N1120A wrote:
They're right here. Pilots should absolutely have the proficiency to hand fly the entire flight. And they should he proficient with flying the aircraft with the automation and understand how they interact.


Agree in principle but when considering associated workloads (auto thrust, navigation systems, ETOPS, extended length flights (medium and long hauls), a moderate level of automation is a must.


I have absolutely no qualms with including a good deal of automation, which is exactly what I stated in my sentence where I mentioned proficiency flying with the automation.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21266
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:48 pm

My €0.02: Manual handling skills are an important part of the pilot skillset. However, they are not necessarily more or less important than other parts. Things like application of procedures, systems management, and communications are also important parts of the pilot skillset.

We should not fall into the trap of thinking that manual handling is the one paramount skill that makes a good pilot. Appropriate use of automation will keep you out of trouble much more effectively than being able to handfly with Blue Angels level precision.


With modern highly automated and redundant airliners, the risk of ending up with no automation at all is minimal. Certainly, it should be trained for, but other events such as windshear, TCAS, engine failure, and pilot incapacitation, are more likely and thus should be given more emphasis.
 
bigb
Posts: 1812
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:30 pm

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:43 am

SteelChair wrote:
When filing the flight plan strip with items on deferral that no longer allow RVSM or RNP the "slashes and dashes" are modified to communicate the degraded capability to ATC. ATC then knows to increase separation because no human can fly with the same precision as the automation. These deferrals can be a problem at very busy airports.

I find it mildly ironic that certain pilots support this AC. Hand fly the entire route? Does this mean you'll take the plane when all autopilots are on deferral? I haven't seen that happen in many years, and even then only on a short flight, generally back to a maintenance base.

This appears to be another case of having your cake and eating it too. Why write into the AC a requirement that will never, in actuality, be done?


How does a defer AP affect separation for departing and arriving traffic when RVSM starts at FL290. Aircraft that have equipment deferred that requires them to stay out of RVSM will just be filed to fly the enroute sector at a lower altitude. But they will use the same SIDs and STARs with the same separation requirements to transition to/from airports to the enroute sector.
 
benjjk
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

Re: FAA Draft AC on Flight Path Management

Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:27 am

zeke wrote:
benjjk wrote:
3.2.2.1 An air carrier’s line operations policy should permit and encourage MFO and should incorporate the following:

1. Encouragement to manually fly the aircraft when conditions permit, including, at least periodically, the entire departure and arrival phases and potentially the entire flight, if/when practicable and permissible.


Certain airlines around the world would have a fit at the thought of their pilots not engaging autopilot seconds after takeoff. Hopefully this FAA advice will seep through to them.


We would never be able to fly an entire flight without an autopilot on, many departures and arrivals require autopilot use, as does RVSM airspace.


Of course, especially in your kind of operation, but it would be more feasible on some shorter, regional turboprop flights. In any case I don't think the goal of this AC is to see 10,000 hour pilots hand-flying in cruise. I think it's about preventing overly restrictive ops specs that don't allow any manual flying beyond the bare minimum required.

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