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kalvado
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:41 am

CALTECH wrote:
zeke wrote:
CALTECH wrote:

Thanks for proving the point. ETOPS has everything to do with twins.


Nope, the T in ETOPS does not mean twins, it used to some time ago, the rules were changed. ETOPS now means “extended operations”, it is no longer stands for “extended twin engine operations”.

Under the new ETOPS rules a MD-11 and 747 have to comply with their ETOPS requirements.


Maybe in your part of the world for now, but here, ETOPS has everything to do with twins, as your original incorrect statement stated.

Hmmm, ETOPS on 737 Twin. Hmmmm, don't see any EDTO...
Image

More ETOPS on 757 Twin
Image

ETOPS on Widebody Twin
Image

ETOPS on Big Widebody Twin
Image

Are there any three engine planes in that fleet, though?
 
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zeke
Posts: 17362
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Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:59 pm

CALTECH wrote:
Maybe in your part of the world for now, but here, ETOPS has everything to do with twins, as your original incorrect statement stated.

Hmmm, ETOPS on 737 Twin. Hmmmm, don't see any EDTO...


What you are saying is simply out of date, the FAA rules changed in 2007

"For the first time, this new rule also applies ETOPS enhancements and protections to the extended operation of three- and four-engine passenger airplanes. For these "tris and quads," ETOPS applies when the airplane flies beyond 180 minutes of an adequate airport. To ease the transition to the new rule for all current operators, delayed compliance dates are specified for many of this rule's requirements."

"This new U.S. ETOPS rule ensures that air carriers performing twinjet extended operations, or three- and four-engine passenger jet extended operations, will have the requisite experience and ability to maintain and operate these airplanes at the required level of reliability and competence. This rule further provides for ETOPS beyond 180 minutes, and it allows the operators of approved long-range twinjets to fly optimal routings between virtually any two cities on earth."

This is taken from a good article Boeing put together on the changes https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... _02_1.html

EDTO is the ICAO term, ETOPS is the FAA term, they have the same operational meaning.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5281
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:22 pm

Spock540 wrote:
As mentioned above, ETOPS isn't a piece of software/hardware that can be installed/uninstalled on a particular aircraft. It's a certification for the entire airline organization including the aircraft, the flight crew, the dispatch, the maintenance...
Further details and explanations in this Wendover Productions video:
https://youtu.be/HSxSgbNQi-g

Since ETOPS certification is granted to Each airline? Removing ETOPS and Overwater equipment like Slide Rafts, life vests and related equipment would render the aircraft Non ETOPS dispatchable.
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3587
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:33 pm

kalvado wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
zeke wrote:

Nope, the T in ETOPS does not mean twins, it used to some time ago, the rules were changed. ETOPS now means “extended operations”, it is no longer stands for “extended twin engine operations”.

Under the new ETOPS rules a MD-11 and 747 have to comply with their ETOPS requirements.


Maybe in your part of the world for now, but here, ETOPS has everything to do with twins, as your original incorrect statement stated.

Hmmm, ETOPS on 737 Twin. Hmmmm, don't see any EDTO...
Image

More ETOPS on 757 Twin
Image

ETOPS on Widebody Twin
Image

ETOPS on Big Widebody Twin
Image

Are there any three engine planes in that fleet, though?


None. Not too many 3 engine aircraft around in airliner fleets, miss them...
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3587
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:35 pm

zeke wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
Maybe in your part of the world for now, but here, ETOPS has everything to do with twins, as your original incorrect statement stated.

Hmmm, ETOPS on 737 Twin. Hmmmm, don't see any EDTO...


What you are saying is simply out of date, the FAA rules changed in 2007

"For the first time, this new rule also applies ETOPS enhancements and protections to the extended operation of three- and four-engine passenger airplanes. For these "tris and quads," ETOPS applies when the airplane flies beyond 180 minutes of an adequate airport. To ease the transition to the new rule for all current operators, delayed compliance dates are specified for many of this rule's requirements."

"This new U.S. ETOPS rule ensures that air carriers performing twinjet extended operations, or three- and four-engine passenger jet extended operations, will have the requisite experience and ability to maintain and operate these airplanes at the required level of reliability and competence. This rule further provides for ETOPS beyond 180 minutes, and it allows the operators of approved long-range twinjets to fly optimal routings between virtually any two cities on earth."

This is taken from a good article Boeing put together on the changes https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... _02_1.html

EDTO is the ICAO term, ETOPS is the FAA term, they have the same operational meaning.


It is not what you posted, great deflection. You said ETOPS has nothing to do with twins, and ETOPS is all we work with in our twin fleets.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3729
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:45 pm

CALTECH wrote:
zeke wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
Maybe in your part of the world for now, but here, ETOPS has everything to do with twins, as your original incorrect statement stated.

Hmmm, ETOPS on 737 Twin. Hmmmm, don't see any EDTO...


What you are saying is simply out of date, the FAA rules changed in 2007

"For the first time, this new rule also applies ETOPS enhancements and protections to the extended operation of three- and four-engine passenger airplanes. For these "tris and quads," ETOPS applies when the airplane flies beyond 180 minutes of an adequate airport. To ease the transition to the new rule for all current operators, delayed compliance dates are specified for many of this rule's requirements."

"This new U.S. ETOPS rule ensures that air carriers performing twinjet extended operations, or three- and four-engine passenger jet extended operations, will have the requisite experience and ability to maintain and operate these airplanes at the required level of reliability and competence. This rule further provides for ETOPS beyond 180 minutes, and it allows the operators of approved long-range twinjets to fly optimal routings between virtually any two cities on earth."

This is taken from a good article Boeing put together on the changes https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... _02_1.html

EDTO is the ICAO term, ETOPS is the FAA term, they have the same operational meaning.


It is not what you posted, great deflection. You said ETOPS has nothing to do with twins, and ETOPS is all we work with in our twin fleets.

Well, lets say it so:
You don't apply ETOPS to twins specifically; you apply it to all pax types going beyond certain range offshore - including twins, trijets (all of them - or none of them, depending on you being optimist or pessimist today), quads (again - all of pax quads left in US are gone), as well as all pax aircraft with more than 4 engines.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:58 pm

fr8mech wrote:
zeke wrote:

There is no “ETOPS certified assembly”, airframes and components are not ETOPS certified. The airframe will have type approval for ETOPS which means it has a configuration with the necessary redundancy for key systems like electrical, hydraulics, fire suppression, and communications. I suspect the APU is required on the 767 because it lacks electrical generator redundancy requirements without it, this needs to be able to start the APU in flight. Aircraft like the 747 have generator redundancy through the power plant configuration, they cannot start the APU in flight even if they wanted to. The A330 does not need the APU to dispatch ETOPS as it has the necessary electrical redundancy by having two generators per engine.


From memory, at my operator (ETOPS 180) if we dispatch with an Inop APU, we are limited to ETOPS 120. If we install any component on that APU that is not ETOPS approved, per our IPC, we restrict the aircraft from ETOPS operation.

So, the APU is required for ETOPS dispatch and components on that APU affect the ETOPS status of the aircraft. Different aircraft, different operators, different rules.


We have had quite a few ETOPS Verification Flights for APU and Engine Changes lately.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21137
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:22 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Spock540 wrote:
As mentioned above, ETOPS isn't a piece of software/hardware that can be installed/uninstalled on a particular aircraft. It's a certification for the entire airline organization including the aircraft, the flight crew, the dispatch, the maintenance...
Further details and explanations in this Wendover Productions video:
https://youtu.be/HSxSgbNQi-g

Since ETOPS certification is granted to Each airline? Removing ETOPS and Overwater equipment like Slide Rafts, life vests and related equipment would render the aircraft Non ETOPS dispatchable.


This happens if a piece EDTO-required kit is MELed also.
 
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zeke
Posts: 17362
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:46 am

CALTECH wrote:
It is not what you posted, great deflection. You said ETOPS has nothing to do with twins, and ETOPS is all we work with in our twin fleets.


It a simple statement of fact, prior to 2007 ETOPS stood for "Extended range Twin OPerationS approval ", that definition changed in 2007 to be "Extended OPerationS", ETOPS now has nothing to do with twins, it applies for all engine configurations.

FAA definition

"Extended Operations (ETOPS) means an airplane flight operation other than an all-cargo operation in an airplane with more than two engines during which a portion of the flight is conducted beyond a time threshold identified in part 121 or part 135 of this chapter that is determined using an approved one-engine-inoperative cruise speed under standard atmospheric conditions in still air."

In the US there is still passenger operations in quads, Atlas for example.

There is no FAA or ICAO requirement to paint ETOPS on the nose gear door, that is just a company maintenance practice.

I have demonstrated many times over now that the FAA ETOPS definition has changed. Everyone can see you have not been able to produce a single document that says the ETOPS only applies to twins.
 
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eta unknown
Posts: 3317
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:48 am

Thought I'd share a story from many years ago. I flew STL-LAX on a TWA 757 flight that was continuing to HNL. 10 minutes before departure the pilot announced this aircraft is not authorised to go to HNL, so we need to disembark and board the 757 at the adjacent gate. The only difference was the second 757 had "ETOPS" written on the nose doors like in the pictures above.
 
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AirKevin
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:18 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:50 am

eta unknown wrote:
Thought I'd share a story from many years ago. I flew STL-LAX on a TWA 757 flight that was continuing to HNL. 10 minutes before departure the pilot announced this aircraft is not authorised to go to HNL, so we need to disembark and board the 757 at the adjacent gate. The only difference was the second 757 had "ETOPS" written on the nose doors like in the pictures above.

I would think the second 757 had equipment like over water rafts that the first one didn't, or did TWA have that stuff on all of their 757s.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3269
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Sun Jul 03, 2022 12:15 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Thought I'd share a story from many years ago. I flew STL-LAX on a TWA 757 flight that was continuing to HNL. 10 minutes before departure the pilot announced this aircraft is not authorised to go to HNL, so we need to disembark and board the 757 at the adjacent gate. The only difference was the second 757 had "ETOPS" written on the nose doors like in the pictures above.

The only difference you could see was the ETOPS on the nose. From a passenger about the only noticeable thing is the overwater equipment in the cabin. Even that is not a indicator of ETOPS. We had MD80 that had overwater equipment so they could fly routes that hugged the coast, but were not ETOPS.

For the 757 the only things I can recall that they need to have installed is a Hydraulic Motor Generator, HMG. That is a back up source of electric power. It's a electric hydraulic pump that works in reverse. Takes pressure in and outputs electric power. The other usual addition is HF radio comms. On top of those components the airframe has to be maintained with ETOPS rules. Special preflight inspections by a ETOPS trained mechanic. All the ETOPS critical components need to function and have been maintained under ETOPS rules.
 
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zeke
Posts: 17362
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:22 am

eta unknown wrote:
Thought I'd share a story from many years ago. I flew STL-LAX on a TWA 757 flight that was continuing to HNL. 10 minutes before departure the pilot announced this aircraft is not authorised to go to HNL, so we need to disembark and board the 757 at the adjacent gate. The only difference was the second 757 had "ETOPS" written on the nose doors like in the pictures above.


What also sometimes happens is there is a defect discovered during preflight and through the application of the MEL ETDO/ETOPS is not approved.
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3587
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:11 pm

zeke wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
It is not what you posted, great deflection. You said ETOPS has nothing to do with twins, and ETOPS is all we work with in our twin fleets.


It a simple statement of fact, prior to 2007 ETOPS stood for "Extended range Twin OPerationS approval ", that definition changed in 2007 to be "Extended OPerationS", ETOPS now has nothing to do with twins, it applies for all engine configurations.

FAA definition

"Extended Operations (ETOPS) means an airplane flight operation other than an all-cargo operation in an airplane with more than two engines during which a portion of the flight is conducted beyond a time threshold identified in part 121 or part 135 of this chapter that is determined using an approved one-engine-inoperative cruise speed under standard atmospheric conditions in still air."

In the US there is still passenger operations in quads, Atlas for example.

There is no FAA or ICAO requirement to paint ETOPS on the nose gear door, that is just a company maintenance practice.

I have demonstrated many times over now that the FAA ETOPS definition has changed. Everyone can see you have not been able to produce a single document that says the ETOPS only applies to twins.


You can deflect all you want, you WROTE ETOPS has nothing to do with Twins, but it does. Now you are attempting to change what you wrote.

Give it up, just stop, from 2008 which supersedes your 2007 claim...

zeke wrote:
CALTECH wrote:

EDTO applies to all aircraft. ETOPS twins only.


ETOPS just means extended operations these days, it has nothing to do with twins.



---Extended Operations (ETOPS and Polar Operations)
Date Issued
June 13, 2008
Responsible Office
AFS-220
Description
States an acceptable means but not the only means for obtaining approval under FAR Section 121.161 for
two-engine airplanes
to operate over a route that contains a point farther than one hour flying time at the normal one-engine inoperative cruise speed (in still air) from an adequate airport.---

'FAA Home ▸ Regulations & Policies ▸ Advisory Circulars (ACs)
AC 120-42B - Extended Operations (ETOPS and Polar Operations)
Document Information
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Advisory Circulars home

120-42B - Extended Operations (ETOPS and Polar Operations)
Date Issued
June 13, 2008
Responsible Office
AFS-220
Description
States an acceptable means but not the only means for obtaining approval under FAR Section 121.161 for two-engine airplanes to operate over a route that contains a point farther than one hour flying time at the normal one-engine inoperative cruise speed (in still air) from an adequate airport.
AC 120-42B (PDF, 4.8 MB)
Cancels
Number Title Date
120-42A Extended Range Operation with Two-Engine Airplanes (ETOPS)
States an acceptable means but not the only means for obtaining approval under FAR Section 121.161 for two-engine airplanes to operate over a route that contains a point farther than one hour flying time at the normal one-engine inoperative cruise speed (in still air) from an adequate airport.
12/30/1998'

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... ntID/73587
 
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zeke
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Re: Installing/ Uninstalling ETOPS On An Aircraft

Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:26 pm

CALTECH wrote:

You can deflect all you want, you WROTE ETOPS has nothing to do with Twins, but it does. Now you are attempting to change what you wrote.

Give it up, just stop, from 2008 which supersedes your 2007 claim...


Your post just confirms what I was saying, you need to actually open up the document and read what it says, not just the first result google gives you.

Now I stated clearly that ETOPS has been renamed from Extended Range Operation with Two-Engine Airplanes (ETOPS) to Extended Operations (ETOPS), it has nothing to do with twins, that is why the FAA renamed it.

The documents you quoted confirms this.
AC 120-42B - Extended Operations (ETOPS and Polar Operations)
Cancels
AC 120-42A Extended Range Operation with Two-Engine Airplanes (ETOPS)

Both AC 120-42B and FAR Section 121.16 clearly states that ETOPS applies to all engine configurations, prior to this ETOPS only applied to twins, after 2007 ETOPS applies to all engine configurations, the references to it being related to twins were removed.

From AC 120-42B

“The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) may authorize ETOPS with two-engine airplanes over a route that contains a point farther than 60 minutes flying time from an adequate airport at an approved one-engine inoperative cruise speed under standard conditions in still air (adequate airport is defined in part 121, § 121.7 and Appendix 1 of this AC). The FAA may also authorize ETOPS with passenger-carrying airplanes with more than two engines over a route that contains a point farther than 180 minutes flying time from an adequate airport at an approved one-engine inoperative cruise speed under standard conditions in still air.”

§ 121.161 Airplane limitations: Type of route.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, unless approved by the Administrator in accordance with Appendix P of this part and authorized in the certificate holder's operations specifications, no certificate holder may operate a turbine-engine-powered airplane over a route that contains a point -

(1) Farther than a flying time from an Adequate Airport (at a one-engine-inoperative cruise speed under standard conditions in still air) of 60 minutes for a two-engine airplane or 180 minutes for a passenger-carrying airplane with more than two engines;

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