Dear all,

Just a short, stupid question: How are flight hours logged for pilots in an augmented crew setting?

Let's assume a 12h flight with a crew of 3 (CA, FO, Cruise pilot). Would all 3 get the full 12h flight time credited to their logbook, or only these hours they are actually on duty?

Thanks!
Hendric

It very much depends on the regulating authority.

In my case, I'd get time in seat when pilot flying (P1 under supervision time) or pilot monitoring (P2 time). However, the captain can log the full flight.

When I was a cruise pilot, I logged time the seat as P2 but with a sort of asterisk denoting cruise relief time.

Agreed with the above post, it very much depends on the regulator. That having been said I never have been able to find clear FAA guidance on how to “properly” log time with an augmented crew.

My personal take on logging the time is that at the end of the day your logbooks are there to prove your flight time and adherence to all applicable flight time limits. Because of this I would log the entire flight time as Total Time as that was the best indicator of remaining within the flight time limitations.

I was much more conservative with logging PIC time however. I only logged PIC if I was the only captain or designated as such at the beginning of the flight. If I don’t fall into either of those categories everything was logged as SIC.

For what it’s worth I got asked this same question on an interview and gave the above answer and that seemed to satisfy the interviewers as I got the job.

hitower3 wrote:

Would all 3 get the full 12h flight time credited to their logbook?

Hendric, as mentioned above, in general the answer is "yes," but the category in which the time is logged may vary among the pilots.

To begin, I think there is agreement among pilots and regulating authorities that all three can credit the full flight time under the "Total time" or "Total Duration of Flight" column, so in your example, all three pilots log 12 hours of total flight time. What may vary is how that time is broken down.

In the United States, a very common logbook is the ASA-SP-6 Standard Pilot Master Log. In this logbook format, the "Pilot Function" category is subdivided into PIC, SIC, Dual Received, and Instructor/Examiner/Ck Pilot. There is an additional column that is blank specifically to accommodate situations such as this where flying time may not fit neatly into any of the specified categories, especially in this example where there is a Cruise or Relief pilot. Often, this blank column can be labeled "Other" or "Auxiliary Pilot."

In the example you cited--CA, FO, Cruise pilot--all three would log 12h total time; CA could log 12h PIC time, even when on scheduled break, the FO could log 12h SIC time, and the Cruise pilot would annotate the blank column in the logbook as "Other" and credit 12h. To make it more complicated, in some jurisdictions or flight operations, it may be acceptable for the FO and Cruise pilot to split the time between SIC and "other." The same could be true if the duration of the flight is such that the flight is staffed by two Captains. At my current operator, we do not have Cruise or Relief pilots, so many longer flights are flown with a CA and two FOs or in some cases, two Captains and two FOs, and theoretically, they would split the time between PIC and other, or SIC and other, as appropriate.

At a previous employer, I regularly reviewed the logbooks of pilots and this "additional" column in the logbook was normally labeled "Other," although occasionally, it was designated as "Auxiliary Pilot," time, particularly by pilots who flew in the military. As alluded to above, time logged as "other" or "auxiliary pilot" can be somewhat abstract; the important thing is that the pilot is able to explain this time to an inspector or potential employer.

This situation was similar when companies employed certificated pilots as Flight Engineers (as opposed to Professional Flight Engineers). In this case, since the flight engineer never occupied either the CA or FO seat (unless qualified to do so), they could log all their flight time as "Total," but the additional Pilot Function column (the blank column) would be designated "Flight Engineer."

I have found that logging of flight time is not an exact science; there is room for individual interpretation as long as the time can be logically explained and does not give an impression of dishonesty or falsification.

e38

e38 wrote:

I have found that logging of flight time is not an exact science; there is room for individual interpretation as long as the time can be logically explained and does not give an impression of dishonesty or falsification.

e38

This statement should be bolded and flashing.

It is indeed not an exact science. Just don't cheat.

None of my wide body, long haul friends bother to keep a log book anymore. I haven't kept one for a very long time either, as a narrow body lifer.

AABusDrvr wrote:

None of my wide body, long haul friends bother to keep a log book anymore. I haven't kept one for a very long time either, as a narrow body lifer.

Why is that. Is that even legal.

e38 wrote:

To begin, I think there is agreement among pilots and regulating authorities that all three can credit the full flight time under the "Total time" or "Total Duration of Flight" column, so in your example, all three pilots log 12 hours of total flight time. What may vary is how that time is broken down.

This Is not correct under ICAO Annex 1 a co-pilot needs to be at a pilot station to log flight time. That does not include observer seats. As a check airman I log no flight time when conducting checks on pilots from the jump seat.

“
2.1.9 Crediting of flight time

2.1.9.1 A student pilot or the holder of a pilot licence shall be entitled to be credited in full with all solo, dual instruction and pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time required for the initial issue of a pilot licence or the issue of a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.2 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated for oper- ation by a single pilot but required by a Contracting State to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence. The Contracting State may authorize that flight time be credited in full towards the total flight time required if the air- craft is equipped to be operated by a co-pilot and the aircraft is operated in a multi-crew operation.

2.1.9.3 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated to be oper- ated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.4 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as pilot-in-command under supervision, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.“

This is reflected in EASA rules

“ (2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat”

From https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 321#page29

AirKevin wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

None of my wide body, long haul friends bother to keep a log book anymore. I haven't kept one for a very long time either, as a narrow body lifer.

Why is that. Is that even legal.

I keep a digital logbook which is perfectly legal, if the regulator asks for it I have to print it out and bind it as a book. Many pilots I know use logbooks like Logtenpro, safelog etc. the programs these days can often import the flight data directly from the airlines computers.

Under EASA rules in a commercial environment (I.e. airline) it is actually the responsibility for the operator to maintain the logbook records, private operations need to be maintained by the pilot.

AirKevin wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

None of my wide body, long haul friends bother to keep a log book anymore. I haven't kept one for a very long time either, as a narrow body lifer.

Why is that. Is that even legal.

Yes, it's legal. Like Zeke said above, the airline keeps a record of our flight times. Thats all thats required to prove currency. There are a few who fly recreationally, and they need to keep a log for insurance purposes, currency or if they wish to get another certificate or rating.


At this point, I don't really care how much time I have anymore. And I probably wont act as a pilot in any type of airplane after I retire, so it's just not worth the time to keep one up.

AirKevin wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

None of my wide body, long haul friends bother to keep a log book anymore. I haven't kept one for a very long time either, as a narrow body lifer.

Why is that. Is that even legal.

Apart from the fact that the operator keeps a log, if you are beyond any possible hours requirements you may encounter in the future, logging can seem a bit academic. For example, if you require 5000 hours to apply for a job or upgrade to captain, and you have 7000 in your log already, additional logged hours won't make you "more qualified".

I would say you would log the hours as a crewmember but probably won't get credit for a landing.

CosmicCruiser wrote:

I would say you would log the hours as a crewmember but probably won't get credit for a landing.

In simple terms, that's exactly it. You get to log time in seat and since you aren't in the seat for the landing, you can't log that.

There were guys that would bid RFO to make it easy then complain to the capt they were coming up on their 3 & 3. Then there was the issue of "hey man you knew this so why did you bid RFO? Ugly.

CosmicCruiser wrote:

There were guys that would bid RFO to make it easy then complain to the capt they were coming up on their 3 & 3. Then there was the issue of "hey man you knew this so why did you bid RFO? Ugly.

What is a "3 & 3"? Pre-command upgrade review?

People who complain like that seem endemic in the industry.

One of our former training managers used to quip that the collective noun for pilots is "whinge". A group of pilots would thus be a "whinge of pilots."

Starlionblue wrote:

CosmicCruiser wrote:

There were guys that would bid RFO to make it easy then complain to the capt they were coming up on their 3 & 3. Then there was the issue of "hey man you knew this so why did you bid RFO? Ugly.

What is a "3 & 3"? Pre-command upgrade review?

People who complain like that seem endemic in the industry.

One of our former training managers used to quip that the collective noun for pilots is "whinge". A group of pilots would thus be a "whinge of pilots."

Ha ha that's pretty good. I'll take a guess that the "3&3" refers to day and night landing currency in 14 CFR 61.57.

I just logged Total and SIC when on augmented or non-augmented flights. If I was PIC then it would be Total and PIC. Can only log the landing if you did a manual landing. I flew with one guy who was keeping track of seat time, which I thought was pretty weird. IDK, I haven't spent many brain cells debating on the "right" way to log this time.

Dear all,

Thank you for the interesting insights so far!
Let me formulate a bonus question: How are pilots logging flight hours in practice? Have you got a classic booklet where you had write your hours? Is it an online tool or a program on your PC? Would you take these records with you in case of change of employer?

Kind regards,
Hendric

hitower3 wrote:

Dear all,

Thank you for the interesting insights so far!
Let me formulate a bonus question: How are pilots logging flight hours in practice? Have you got a classic booklet where you had write your hours? Is it an online tool or a program on your PC? Would you take these records with you in case of change of employer?

Kind regards,
Hendric

A mix of electronic and dead tree logbooks where I work. The authority doesn't really care as long as you can show the correct records in the correct format.

I use Log Ten Pro personally. It seems to be the most established electronic logbook provider. Crucially, it can generate logbooks in the format of the authority I fly under. Just log on my iPhone and it syncs to the cloud. Or you can import the company logs to Log Ten Pro and just fill in any extra info.

Other guys like their dead tree logbooks. Personal preference.

You would definitely take the records with you. If nothing else, you'd need to show them during the application process.

A colleague of mine has a whole pile of logbooks from his many years of flying for different operators. Some of them are distinctly charred after there was a fire in his accommodation. This apparently made for an interesting story during the latest interview.

zeke wrote:

e38 wrote:

To begin, I think there is agreement among pilots and regulating authorities that all three can credit the full flight time under the "Total time" or "Total Duration of Flight" column, so in your example, all three pilots log 12 hours of total flight time. What may vary is how that time is broken down.

This Is not correct under ICAO Annex 1 a co-pilot needs to be at a pilot station to log flight time. That does not include observer seats. As a check airman I log no flight time when conducting checks on pilots from the jump seat.

“
2.1.9 Crediting of flight time



2.1.9.1 A student pilot or the holder of a pilot licence shall be entitled to be credited in full with all solo, dual instruction and pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time required for the initial issue of a pilot licence or the issue of a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.2 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated for oper- ation by a single pilot but required by a Contracting State to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence. The Contracting State may authorize that flight time be credited in full towards the total flight time required if the air- craft is equipped to be operated by a co-pilot and the aircraft is operated in a multi-crew operation.

2.1.9.3 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated to be oper- ated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.4 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as pilot-in-command under supervision, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.“

This is reflected in EASA rules

“ (2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;

(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat”

From https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 321#page29

This is very regulatory depended.

FAA sees it differently due to rest requirements of Part 117. Part 121 crews typical log the entire flight time and SIC (PIC if you signed the release as PIC) time if you are the operating crew member listed on the release. Which also includes the observer seats as well.

This doesn’t apply to jumpseaters, deadheading.

IACO this is treated differently. Because of those differences, I follow the FAA rules since my certs cares are issued by the FAA and all of my company’s operations fall under FAA jurisdiction.

I log the entire flight as Total time and SIC time.
I have custom columns created in my e-logbook for Time in seat, relief and only log the landings I perform. I do this is way because I am a required crew memeber for operating the flight and US air carriers track the their pilots hours in the same manner because of Part 117.

bigb wrote:

This is very regulatory depended.

FAA sees it differently due to rest requirements of Part 117. Part 121 crews typical log the entire flight time and SIC (PIC if you signed the release as PIC) time if you are the operating crew member listed on the release. Which also includes the observer seats as well.

This doesn’t apply to jumpseaters, deadheading.

IACO this is treated differently. Because of those differences, I follow the FAA rules since my certs cares are issued by the FAA and all of my company’s operations fall under FAA jurisdiction.

I log the entire flight as Total time and SIC time.
I have custom columns created in my e-logbook for Time in seat, relief and only log the landings I perform. I do this is way because I am a required crew memeber for operating the flight and US air carriers track the their pilots hours in the same manner because of Part 117.

Can you point to the actual regulation, the FAA regulation I am aware of is the same as ICAO

14 CFR § 61.51 - Pilot logbooks (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate;

zeke wrote:

bigb wrote:

This is very regulatory depended.

FAA sees it differently due to rest requirements of Part 117. Part 121 crews typical log the entire flight time and SIC (PIC if you signed the release as PIC) time if you are the operating crew member listed on the release. Which also includes the observer seats as well.

This doesn’t apply to jumpseaters, deadheading.

IACO this is treated differently. Because of those differences, I follow the FAA rules since my certs cares are issued by the FAA and all of my company’s operations fall under FAA jurisdiction.

I log the entire flight as Total time and SIC time.
I have custom columns created in my e-logbook for Time in seat, relief and only log the landings I perform. I do this is way because I am a required crew memeber for operating the flight and US air carriers track the their pilots hours in the same manner because of Part 117.

Can you point to the actual regulation, the FAA regulation I am aware of is the same as ICAO

14 CFR § 61.51 - Pilot logbooks (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate;

That’s Part 61, we are also responsible for tracking our flight time limits well governed by Part 117 which has to go in our logbook just like anything related to currency must also be in our logbook. Like everything else with the FAA, it isn’t clear as mud.

By your logic, my time in the bunk wouldn’t count towards my cumulative total of flight time under the FAA that I am responsible to track. However, since the FAA imposed a shared responsibility for tracking rest between crew and company. Our logbook becomes that means of tracking that rest well. There US long haul crews can and do log the entire flight time. This has been out by ALPA, POIs, FSDOs.

I asked for the regulation, please provide the reference.

FDPs/ FTLs have nothing to do with what goes in the logbook.

Under part 61 regulation I provided above, bunk time in your logbook are fake hours, only hours at a crew member station is the rule. A PIC I can log bunk time, not the SIC.

If you can show me a regulation that says otherwise I would be more than happy to read it.

Bunk time does not count towards your weekly, monthly or yearly FTLs, FDPs cover that time. As SIC you can be onboard for 1500 hrs a year, as long as you were not at the controls for more than the annual maximum you are legal.

zeke wrote:

I asked for the regulation, please provide the reference.

FDPs/ FTLs have nothing to do with what goes in the logbook.

Under part 61 regulation I provided above, bunk time in your logbook are fake hours, only hours at a crew member station is the rule. A PIC I can log bunk time, not the SIC.

If you can show me a regulation that says otherwise I would be more than happy to read it.

Bunk time does not count towards your weekly, monthly or yearly FTLs, FDPs cover that time. As SIC you can be onboard for 1500 hrs a year, as long as you were not at the controls for more than the annual maximum you are legal.

Zeke, already explained to you the practice here in the US and the FAA stance on the matter. In the case of the US does. If you have a issue on the matter, you can always contact a POI or regional FSDO on the matter.

FAA logging of flight time isn’t clear as mud, just like their stance of logging PIC time when there are two pilots in a single pilot aircraft (there are situations where it is allowed under the FAA guidance). Simply parting to the part 61 reg.

Do yourself a favor and do some of your own digging on the matter. Start with flying sub Reddit, Airline Pukot Central, ALPA flight time limitation guidance, such various FAA guidance on logging of flight times in past letters of interpretations. I am not digging them all up.

bigb wrote:

Zeke, already explained to you the practice here in the US and the FAA stance on the matter. In the case of the US does. If you have a issue on the matter, you can always contact a POI or regional FSDO on the matter.

FAA logging of flight time isn’t clear as mud, just like their stance of logging PIC time when there are two pilots in a single pilot aircraft (there are situations where it is allowed under the FAA guidance). Simply parting to the part 61 reg.

Do yourself a favor and do some of your own digging on the matter. Start with flying sub Reddit, Airline Pukot Central, ALPA flight time limitation guidance, such various FAA guidance on logging of flight times in past letters of interpretations. I am not digging them all up.

Why do you think I need to consult reddit, or APC ?

Why not just try the good ole FAA, eg "Logging of Flight Time Towards the Part 121 Operating Experience and Consolidation Requirements During Augmented Flight crew Operations"

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 00.415.pdf

"Additionally, as provided in § 121.434(c)(2), second in command (SIC) pilots “must perform the duties of a second in command under the supervision of an appropriately qualified check pilot” to acquire OE. Section 121.434(d) also requires that FEs “must perform the duties of a flight engineer under the supervision of a check airman or a qualified flight engineer” to acquire OE. Therefore, time spent by a pilot or FE while not seated at the controls or FE station, as applicable, including time spent resting, as required by 14 CFR part 117 and part 121 subparts Q, R, and S, cannot be counted to satisfy the OE or consolidation requirements of § 121.434 (see Legal Interpretation to Hugh Thomas, June 10, 2013)."

"Certificate Holder is in Noncompliance. If the certificate holder is in noncompliance by allowing logging of flight time towards the OE or consolidation requirements when a flight crew member is not performing the required duties and is not seated at the controls or FE station, as applicable, the POI must follow the procedures in FAA Order 8900.1, Volume 14, Chapter 1, Flight Standards Service Compliance Policy, to correct the noncompliance."

Another one
"Legal interpretation regarding logging flight time towards the pilot operating experience requirements set"

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... tation.pdf

"We received your March 2013 letter requesting an interpretation of the operating experience requirements set forth in 14 C.F .R. § 121.4 34( c) and (g) with regard to logging flight time. You specifically asked whether the time a pilot spends resting during a given flight segment may be counted towards the hours of operating experience required in§ 121.434(c)(3) and (g). Indeed, you indicated that some part 121 operators may be counting all of the time a pilot spends "airborne," including rest time, to satisfy the operating experience requirements set forth in the rule. As explained below, a pilot may only log flight time when he/she is seated at the controls of the airplane and actually performing the piloting duties required for purposes of meeting the operating experience requirements in§ 121.434."

"The plain language of the regulation as well as the rulemaking history demonstrate that PIC's and SI C's must actually "perform the duties" required of a PIC or SIC to acquire operating experience to satisfy the requirements in§ 121.434. Since the 1995 amendment to § 121.434, PI C's and SI C's have been held to a similar standard for purposes of logging flight time for operating experience. Indeed, SIC's may no longer earn operating experience through observation. Accordingly, time spent by a pilot while not seated at the controls, including time spent resting as required by subparts Q, R, and S of part 121, cannot be counted to satisfy the pilot operating experience requirements of§ 121.434 for a PIC or SIC."

"A breakdown of time spent by the pilot at the controls versus time spent resting or "on break" was provided as follows to guide our analysis:
Total flight time= 31 hours, 10 minutes
Total break/rest time= 12 hours, 27 minutes
Total time seated at controls under supervision of check pilot= 18 hours, 43 minutes

We conclude that the amount of time that may be counted towards the operating experience requirements in§ 121.434 is the 18 hours and 43 minutes of flight time that the pilot spent seated at the controls under supervision of the check pilot, since this is the time actually spent performing piloting duties. The outcome is the same whether the pilot is earning operating experience as a PIC or SIC and whether the pilot is gaining operating experience to meet the requirements for initial, upgrade or transition training in paragraph ( c) or for consolidation in paragraph (g). As explained above, the time a pilot spends resting, or otherwise away from the controls, is not time when the pilot is "performing the duties" required of a PIC or SIC and therefore cannot be counted to satisfy the pilot's operating experience requirements."

All you have to do is show me where the FAA has it written down that you can log all time even when the bunk as SIC.

AABusDrvr wrote:

AirKevin wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

None of my wide body, long haul friends bother to keep a log book anymore. I haven't kept one for a very long time either, as a narrow body lifer.

Why is that. Is that even legal.

Yes, it's legal. Like Zeke said above, the airline keeps a record of our flight times. Thats all thats required to prove currency. There are a few who fly recreationally, and they need to keep a log for insurance purposes, currency or if they wish to get another certificate or rating.

There are tons of people who fly for reasons other than "recreation" who have to keep their own log.

N1120A wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

AirKevin wrote:

Why is that. Is that even legal.

Yes, it's legal. Like Zeke said above, the airline keeps a record of our flight times. Thats all thats required to prove currency. There are a few who fly recreationally, and they need to keep a log for insurance purposes, currency or if they wish to get another certificate or rating.

There are tons of people who fly for reasons other than "recreation" who have to keep their own log.

I was speaking about current 121 people.

AABusDrvr wrote:

N1120A wrote:

AABusDrvr wrote:

Yes, it's legal. Like Zeke said above, the airline keeps a record of our flight times. Thats all thats required to prove currency. There are a few who fly recreationally, and they need to keep a log for insurance purposes, currency or if they wish to get another certificate or rating.

There are tons of people who fly for reasons other than "recreation" who have to keep their own log.

I was speaking about current 121 people.

121 people aren't the only pilots who fly for reasons other than recreation.

3&3 is 3 t/o & 3 ldg every 90 days