Got sent this today. Information would seem to suggest aircraft is B789 HZ-AR12 which performed MAN-JED 23/4/22 but in any case a Saudi 787.

I'm guessing tape is covering up paint peel, if so have wee seen paint peeling this extensive before?

Pic didn't come up but now linked

Why not link to the Reddit post?

https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriat ... audi_from/

caoimhin wrote:

Why not link to the Reddit post?

https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriat ... audi_from/

A) didn't know it existed
B) Its reddit. Misidentifies the aircraft and then goes off on a tangent.

It does not look like A350, so nothing to see here, all simple wear and tear, please move along

Seems to be quite common. I noticed similar duct-tape covered areas on several B787 during the last year here at Stuttgart airport (EDDS) when they did cargo flights to the US (e.g. British Airways G-ZBKK, TUI Airways G-TUIJ).

AA from MIA-GIG in February 2021:

The issue is top coat de-bonding from primer due to UV exposure, as explained by Boeing. The solution is adding a UV resistant layer to the paint system.

https://simpleflying.com/air-new-zealan ... t-flaking/

The 777 has had huge CFRP horizontal stabilisers (737 wing sized) for tens of years including under desert high temperature, salt spray and high UV light conditions. Did this never ever occur before? What is different today?

Noshow wrote:

The 777 has had huge CFRP horizontal stabilisers (737 wing sized) for tens of years including under desert high temperature, salt spray and high UV light conditions. Did this never ever occur before? What is different today?

Combination of UV with large deflection of the 787 wing during flight cycles. The topcoat paint gets flexed repeatedly until it loses adhesion with the primer. But the primer adhesion to the surface remains. So filtering the UV prevents degradation of the top coat adhesion.

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

JannEejit wrote:

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

Here is an older (2000) article from Boeing on aircraft painting and polishing. Painting is every 4 to 6 years. Polishing is done at least annually, or more frequently if needed. I suspect once the paint starts peeling, polishing is no longer effective. Since peeling is not an airworthiness concern, they use speed tape until the next painting cycle.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 01txt.html

JannEejit wrote:

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

what's funny is that the aircraft from the flight I posted, departs at night..... so chances are, no pax really noticed it, until they were somewhere over the Amazon jungle and powerless to object, lol.

BoeingVista wrote:

caoimhin wrote:

Why not link to the Reddit post?

https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriat ... audi_from/

A) didn't know it existed
B) Its reddit. Misidentifies the aircraft and then goes off on a tangent.

Yeah reddit is filled with fiction authors, there is absolutely no value for tech related topics there.

Avatar2go wrote:

JannEejit wrote:

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

Here is an older (2000) article from Boeing on aircraft painting and polishing. Painting is every 4 to 6 years. Polishing is done at least annually, or more frequently if needed. I suspect once the paint starts peeling, polishing is no longer effective. Since peeling is not an airworthiness concern, they use speed tape until the next painting cycle.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 01txt.html

BA have 3 2009 build B777s in their original delivery, that 4-6 years repaint window feels low.

skipness1E wrote:

Avatar2go wrote:

JannEejit wrote:

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

Here is an older (2000) article from Boeing on aircraft painting and polishing. Painting is every 4 to 6 years. Polishing is done at least annually, or more frequently if needed. Since peeling is not an airworthiness concern, they use speed tape until the next painting cycle.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... 01txt.html

BA have 3 2009 build B777s in their original delivery, that 4-6 years repaint window feels low.

That very well may be, the article is 20 years old. I'm sure coatings have improved since then. I posted it because it talks about the airline decision process for repainting. Airliners require a D-check every 6 years, and the paint may need to be removed for inspection. That is true for the larger USAF aircraft as well. So I know that many do get repainted at that time. That doesn't mean their liveries change, just repainted.

LAX772LR wrote:

JannEejit wrote:

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

what's funny is that the aircraft from the flight I posted, departs at night..... so chances are, no pax really noticed it, until they were somewhere over the Amazon jungle and powerless to object, lol.

That picture is not showing for me, do you have another link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCIOHc3MWtk

Real time paint peeling

What if they just leave the wings unpainted. What color would it be?

Probably black
https://youtu.be/yWocCSl8bY0

But then it would probably heat up the wing more and cause your fuel inside to warm up what you don't really want either.

ReverseFlow wrote:

Probably black
https://youtu.be/yWocCSl8bY0

But then it would probably heat up the wing more and cause your fuel inside to warm up what you don't really want either.

You probably don't want dark material exposed to 10+ hours of direct sunlight. No thanks.

IIRC it gets coated with some bright protective layer right after manufacturing before anything else.

Ziyulu wrote:

What if they just leave the wings unpainted. What color would it be?

Composites can't be left uncoated, due to moisture penetration, which then freezes at altitude and can damage or separate the layers.

A question, the 787 was in testing in all types of environment for a year or two before EIS, did the issue not appear during testing or did Boeing paint its test a/c with a different type paint that did not create this issue?

BoeingVista wrote:

caoimhin wrote:

Why not link to the Reddit post?

https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriat ... audi_from/

A) didn't know it existed
B) Its reddit. Misidentifies the aircraft and then goes off on a tangent.

Agree with you on point B, but you posted a screenshot from Reddit, so I assumed you were aware of the origin. My mistake.

ReverseFlow wrote:

Probably black
https://youtu.be/yWocCSl8bY0

But then it would probably heat up the wing more and cause your fuel inside to warm up what you don't really want either.

In the photo above of the AA plane, looks like there are a couple of small, irregularly shaped darker spots (unlike the other areas with right angles) that don't have tape on them. Is that what's going on there?

JannEejit wrote:

From a pure professional point of view, quite why airlines let a plane with passengers on board see a sight like that is beyond me. It certainly creates a bad impression, regardless of what the situation *actually* is.

Easy - just turn on the 787 windows to max dimness. Problem solved.

Does the duct tape on the wing affect airflow and increase fuel consumption?

My dad would have loved it. He was an avid duct tape user.

I believe the correct term is speed tape.

par13del wrote:

A question, the 787 was in testing in all types of environment for a year or two before EIS, did the issue not appear during testing or did Boeing paint its test a/c with a different type paint that did not create this issue?

Good question. The issue of paint adhesion on composites has been known for decades. The initial problems were traced back to paint thickness. The primers are brittle and will crack if applied too thickly to the composite substrates which don’t expand and contract as much under thermal cycling. Enamel topcoats are more flexible but they too will fail due to mudcracking if applied thickly.

Oftentimes the mechanics that are hired are among the lowest paid and are former auto body painters who apply paint as they would to restore a pristine aesthetic appearance. They overdo it because all that is needed is just enough to protect the surface. The industry is continually relearning this lesson.

As you mention, Boeing has experience with paint application on models prior to 787. However, Boeing found during early production of 787 which experienced long delays that additional process controls in the factory were needed to ensure a durable paint finish.

There are other in-service findings which have been new learnings related to sensitivity and degradation due to UV exposure.

The one thing that we don’t know about this airplane is whether it is an out-of-the-factory paint or whether it was repainted since delivery at an MRO.

AirKevin wrote:

I believe the correct term is speed tape.

Available in all shapes and sizes.

http://skygeek.com/shop/?search_query=3M+aluminum+foil+tape

I see this quite often on our aircraft, including the B757 and MD11's. The 767's are holding up fairly well so far. As for flying with paint missing on a composite surface, the SRM allows a time limit that is more than you would think. If I recall correctly, the 757 and 767 can go for one thousand hours and it is recommended that the area be protected, thus the speed tape. The reason you do not want to leave a composite surface exposed is that UV will began to degrade the epoxy resin used to bind the composite fabric, be it carbon, fiberglass, kevlar or a combination of these. Kevlar is the one you want to keep moisture away from as it will rapidly absorb it. In the above post about the bright protective coating that is applied, this would probably be Thorstrand treated fibers. It is a thin metallic coating applied the the outermost layer of fabric to help dissipate static charges across the composite assembly. Thostrand is usually on a layer of pre-preg fiberglass. If it is missing or damaged, you can repair it using a flame spray gun.
Here at IND, we always prime and paint any bare surfaces, be it composite or metal.
Gregory

par13del wrote:

A question, the 787 was in testing in all types of environment for a year or two before EIS, did the issue not appear during testing or did Boeing paint its test a/c with a different type paint that did not create this issue?

All types of environment TESTS but not real world - it's a much harsher world out there.

And in the aviation industry, you don't jump out with unproven ideas and implement unless it's a critical issue. Better take the time and gather as much information as possible and come up with a proper solution.

This paint issue has been going on for years and apparent around LN250 (can't remember the exact number) there is an improved paint package that should stand up better, how well does it do and how to implement on earlier LNs is another matter. So in the time being speed tape and repaint is the only measures you have got.

When I was last doing a C check on a 787 and see the wing paint peel from the tip of the vertical stabiliser my only discription is sepcticular....

ReverseFlow wrote:

Probably black
https://youtu.be/yWocCSl8bY0

But then it would probably heat up the wing more and cause your fuel inside to warm up what you don't really want either.

The heat is not a big deal when it's -56 degrees centigrade out there - it's the UV you got to worry about. Long UV exposure will degrade the resin in the CFRP.

Avatar2go wrote:

Here is an older (2000) article from Boeing on aircraft painting and polishing. Painting is every 4 to 6 years. Polishing is done at least annually, or more frequently if needed. Since peeling is not an airworthiness concern, they use speed tape until the next painting cycle.

787 has a C-Check at 3 years interval, so 6 years is only a 2C Check.

celestar345 wrote:

par13del wrote:

A question, the 787 was in testing in all types of environment for a year or two before EIS, did the issue not appear during testing or did Boeing paint its test a/c with a different type paint that did not create this issue?

All types of environment TESTS but not real world - it's a much harsher world out there.

And in the aviation industry, you don't jump out with unproven ideas and implement unless it's a critical issue. Better take the time and gather as much information as possible and come up with a proper solution.

This paint issue has been going on for years and apparent around LN250 (can't remember the exact number) there is an improved paint package that should stand up better, how well does it do and how to implement on earlier LNs is another matter. So in the time being speed tape and repaint is the only measures you have got.

When I was last doing a C check on a 787 and see the wing paint peel from the tip of the vertical stabiliser my only discription is sepcticular....

ReverseFlow wrote:

Probably black
https://youtu.be/yWocCSl8bY0

But then it would probably heat up the wing more and cause your fuel inside to warm up what you don't really want either.

The heat is not a big deal when it's -56 degrees centigrade out there - it's the UV you got to worry about. Long UV exposure will degrade the resin in the CFRP.

Avatar2go wrote:

Here is an older (2000) article from Boeing on aircraft painting and polishing. Painting is every 4 to 6 years. Polishing is done at least annually, or more frequently if needed. Since peeling is not an airworthiness concern, they use speed tape until the next painting cycle.

787 has a C-Check at 3 years interval, so 6 years is only a 2C Check.

The heat will become an issue when you're sat on the ground at +40°C in Doha though.

par13del wrote:

A question, the 787 was in testing in all types of environment for a year or two before EIS, did the issue not appear during testing or did Boeing paint its test a/c with a different type paint that did not create this issue?

During testing it was SOP to cover any place the CFRP showed through with 1000 MPH aluminum speed tape. Probably a bigger problem is that carbon fiber is damaged by direct UV exposure. When we got the barrel sections and wings at final assembly those were always primed when we got them.

We never had paint peel that extreme. Could be that the paint peel is caused by de-iceing which in flight test we very rarely had to do.