Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
LongHaulFTW wrote:how were arrivals into airports flown with the non-RNAV compliant INS?
LongHaulFTW wrote:lIf I recall correctly, aircraft equipped with INS could not fly published STARs because the INS was not RNAV compliant (excluding more modern INS units like the Litton LTN-92), so how were arrivals into airports flown with the non-RNAV compliant INS?
gloom wrote:You can use any other (there are still some VOR based, even if limited nowadays), or ask for vectors (again - if available).
IAHFLYR wrote:So yes, there are plenty of ground based NAVAID STAR procedures still in place.
gloom wrote:IAHFLYR wrote:So yes, there are plenty of ground based NAVAID STAR procedures still in place.
Agree. Still, one of the reasons to put INS procedures in place is gaining some extra capacity. That's what they're for. From capacity planning perspective, "it's not what you asked for". And I've seen people being asked to reconsider and perhaps use INS instead. Just wonder how much is that the case around the world, now that even Cessna (at least modern/upgraded one) is usually able to fly INS.
Cheers,
Adam
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s properly termed RNAV, or at higher precision RNP procedures. INS in inertial nabigation system which was the primary RNAV in jets. Now, it’s an IRS, inertial reference system and acts as a sensor for the FMS.
GalaxyFlyer wrote:RNP procedures
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Understand all that which why I posted “at higher precision RNP procedures”. Maybe an FAA/ICAO terminology difference. There are no “INS” STARs is the point. I do manage OpsSpecs for 3 international bizjets.
zeke wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Understand all that which why I posted “at higher precision RNP procedures”. Maybe an FAA/ICAO terminology difference. There are no “INS” STARs is the point. I do manage OpsSpecs for 3 international bizjets.
All RNAV STARS in the US are RNAV 1, there is no requirement for GNSS at all to fly these or the RNAV airways, these are also RNAV 1. Refer to AC 90-100A for the equipment required to fly RNAV 1.
N1120A wrote:In the US, Q Routes only require RNAV 1, which can be met by DME/DME/INS systems or GPS, but T routes additionally require GPS (to an RNAV 1 or better standard)or GPS/WAAS (which meets at least an RNAV 0.3 standard BTW).
IAHFLYR wrote:N1120A wrote:In the US, Q Routes only require RNAV 1, which can be met by DME/DME/INS systems or GPS, but T routes additionally require GPS (to an RNAV 1 or better standard)or GPS/WAAS (which meets at least an RNAV 0.3 standard BTW).
I sure remember being part of the design team when the Houston Class B was redesigned back in the early 2000's, and the T Routes developed. It was a learning experience for all at that time with the requirements and not met with much enthusiasm from the GA folks as was expected since equipage didn't seem to be very high back then.
N1120A wrote:In the US, Q Routes only require RNAV 1, which can be met by DME/DME/INS systems or GPS, but T routes additionally require GPS (to an RNAV 1 or better standard)or GPS/WAAS (which meets at least an RNAV 0.3 standard BTW).
zeke wrote:N1120A wrote:In the US, Q Routes only require RNAV 1, which can be met by DME/DME/INS systems or GPS, but T routes additionally require GPS (to an RNAV 1 or better standard)or GPS/WAAS (which meets at least an RNAV 0.3 standard BTW).
This is incorrect, T and Q airways are RNAV 2 except for those that are RNAV 1. GPS is not required to fly RNAV 1 or 2.
“Area Navigation (RNAV) Routes
Published RNAV routes, including Q-Routes and T-Routes, can be flight planned for use by aircraft with RNAV capability, subject to any limitations or requirements noted on en route charts, in applicable Advisory Circulars, or by NOTAM. RNAV routes are depicted in blue on aeronautical charts and are identified by the letter “Q” or “T” followed by the airway number (for example, Q-13, T-205). Published RNAV routes are RNAV-2 except when specifically charted as RNAV-1. These routes require system performance currently met by GPS, GPS/WAAS, or DME/DME/IRU RNAV systems that satisfy the criteria discussed in AC 90-100A, U.S. Terminal and En Route Area Navigation (RNAV) Operations.”
From https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... n_3.3.html
N1120A wrote:zeke wrote:N1120A wrote:In the US, Q Routes only require RNAV 1, which can be met by DME/DME/INS systems or GPS, but T routes additionally require GPS (to an RNAV 1 or better standard)or GPS/WAAS (which meets at least an RNAV 0.3 standard BTW).
This is incorrect, T and Q airways are RNAV 2 except for those that are RNAV 1. GPS is not required to fly RNAV 1 or 2.
“Area Navigation (RNAV) Routes
Published RNAV routes, including Q-Routes and T-Routes, can be flight planned for use by aircraft with RNAV capability, subject to any limitations or requirements noted on en route charts, in applicable Advisory Circulars, or by NOTAM. RNAV routes are depicted in blue on aeronautical charts and are identified by the letter “Q” or “T” followed by the airway number (for example, Q-13, T-205). Published RNAV routes are RNAV-2 except when specifically charted as RNAV-1. These routes require system performance currently met by GPS, GPS/WAAS, or DME/DME/IRU RNAV systems that satisfy the criteria discussed in AC 90-100A, U.S. Terminal and En Route Area Navigation (RNAV) Operations.”
From https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... n_3.3.html
You are incorrect.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publica ... n_3.3.html
"Q-routes are available for use by RNAV equipped aircraft between 18,000 feet MSL and FL 450 inclusive. Q-routes are depicted on En Route High Altitude Charts.
NOTE-
Aircraft in Alaska may only operate on GNSS Q-routes with GPS (TSO-C129 (as revised) or TSO-C196 (as revised)) equipment while the aircraft remains in Air Traffic Control (ATC) radar surveillance or with GPS/WAAS which does not require ATC radar surveillance.
T-routes are available for use by GPS or GPS/WAAS equipped aircraft from 1,200 feet above the surface (or in some instances higher) up to but not including 18,000 feet MSL. T-routes are depicted on En Route Low Altitude Charts."