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XLA2008
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Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:48 pm

So random question, I know that most airlines have the silver strip on the front of the horizontal stabilizer which is part of the anti ice system, and some airlines paint over this which I’ve seen in various models (mostly pertaining to Airbus for this thread) like the A330/320 models, I believe (just an example) JetBlue paints over them on the 320 models, Corsair on the 330neo, emirates A380 to name a few, but I have not seen this on the A350… does anyone know if perhaps it isn’t possible to paint over it on the A350? Or maybe it just hasn’t been done before? As far as I’m aware it’s painted rather than delivered without that option. But either way I am trying to figure out if this is something that can be done or is perhaps an option for the A350?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:00 pm

You’re assuming the planes have tail anti-ice which likely not true.
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:01 pm

Modern jet airliners do not have an anti ice system on the tailplane.
Hot air deicing of the stabilisers was present on some 1960 jet aircraft, but not fitted to large jet transports today.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:54 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
Modern jet airliners do not have an anti ice system on the tailplane.
Hot air deicing of the stabilisers was present on some 1960 jet aircraft, but not fitted to large jet transports today.


Then what is the metal leading edge on the tail for? And back to the original question why is it some airlines have it and others don’t, and is it an option to omit it from the A350 or is it a permanent fixture?

As far as I was aware the metal leading edge was heated to prevent ice build up, and with Airbus some come with it some don’t and others are painted… but again ultimate question is that is this an option for the A350 to paint it or not have it?
 
Velocirapture
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:11 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Modern jet airliners do not have an anti ice system on the tailplane.
Hot air deicing of the stabilisers was present on some 1960 jet aircraft, but not fitted to large jet transports today.


Then what is the metal leading edge on the tail for? And back to the original question why is it some airlines have it and others don’t, and is it an option to omit it from the A350 or is it a permanent fixture?

As far as I was aware the metal leading edge was heated to prevent ice build up, and with Airbus some come with it some don’t and others are painted… but again ultimate question is that is this an option for the A350 to paint it or not have it?


The metal strip is unpainted as an abrasion response. That is, the leading edge of the horizontal tail is occasionally subject to abrasion, especially frozen precipitation kicked up from the main landing gear, so not painting it prevents the paint from being removed or worn off.

Of the Boeing aircraft I've flown - 727, 737, 757/767 and 777 - none had anti-icing or de-icing features on the tail, as I recall. Also, IIRC, when Boeing designed the 777, it didn't have wing anti-ice either. However, the launch customers insisted on it, so the middle leading edge devices are heated. You can tell which ones they are by locating the vent holes underneath that allow the hot air to escape.
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:54 pm

Velocirapture wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
Modern jet airliners do not have an anti ice system on the tailplane.
Hot air deicing of the stabilisers was present on some 1960 jet aircraft, but not fitted to large jet transports today.


Then what is the metal leading edge on the tail for? And back to the original question why is it some airlines have it and others don’t, and is it an option to omit it from the A350 or is it a permanent fixture?

As far as I was aware the metal leading edge was heated to prevent ice build up, and with Airbus some come with it some don’t and others are painted… but again ultimate question is that is this an option for the A350 to paint it or not have it?


The metal strip is unpainted as an abrasion response. That is, the leading edge of the horizontal tail is occasionally subject to abrasion, especially frozen precipitation kicked up from the main landing gear, so not painting it prevents the paint from being removed or worn off.

Of the Boeing aircraft I've flown - 727, 737, 757/767 and 777 - none had anti-icing or de-icing features on the tail, as I recall. Also, IIRC, when Boeing designed the 777, it didn't have wing anti-ice either. However, the launch customers insisted on it, so the middle leading edge devices are heated. You can tell which ones they are by locating the vent holes underneath that allow the hot air to escape.


So of Airbus like I said some 320/330/380 etc operators have either not had that metal strip installed or they have painted it and this includes the newer generation of NEO’s, but yet to see an A350 without it, so wasn’t sure if it was just something airlines have not done yet or chosen not to do, or if because it’s a clean sheet design that it is standard and can’t be removed or painted, that’s pretty much the question.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:00 pm

None of the Airbusses have tailplane anti-ice.
All have wing and nacelle anti-ice.
As on the 777, the A380 wasn't supposed to have wing anti-ice. But iirc the authorities insisted on it and there is anti-ice between the engines on the leading edge.
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:03 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
Velocirapture wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:

Then what is the metal leading edge on the tail for? And back to the original question why is it some airlines have it and others don’t, and is it an option to omit it from the A350 or is it a permanent fixture?

As far as I was aware the metal leading edge was heated to prevent ice build up, and with Airbus some come with it some don’t and others are painted… but again ultimate question is that is this an option for the A350 to paint it or not have it?


The metal strip is unpainted as an abrasion response. That is, the leading edge of the horizontal tail is occasionally subject to abrasion, especially frozen precipitation kicked up from the main landing gear, so not painting it prevents the paint from being removed or worn off.

Of the Boeing aircraft I've flown - 727, 737, 757/767 and 777 - none had anti-icing or de-icing features on the tail, as I recall. Also, IIRC, when Boeing designed the 777, it didn't have wing anti-ice either. However, the launch customers insisted on it, so the middle leading edge devices are heated. You can tell which ones they are by locating the vent holes underneath that allow the hot air to escape.


So of Airbus like I said some 320/330/380 etc operators have either not had that metal strip installed or they have painted it and this includes the newer generation of NEO’s, but yet to see an A350 without it, so wasn’t sure if it was just something airlines have not done yet or chosen not to do, or if because it’s a clean sheet design that it is standard and can’t be removed or painted, that’s pretty much the question.
Perhaps it's to do with the fact that the tailplanes are carbon fibre and this is a metallic protection strip against any impacts?
 
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XLA2008
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:25 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:
Velocirapture wrote:

The metal strip is unpainted as an abrasion response. That is, the leading edge of the horizontal tail is occasionally subject to abrasion, especially frozen precipitation kicked up from the main landing gear, so not painting it prevents the paint from being removed or worn off.

Of the Boeing aircraft I've flown - 727, 737, 757/767 and 777 - none had anti-icing or de-icing features on the tail, as I recall. Also, IIRC, when Boeing designed the 777, it didn't have wing anti-ice either. However, the launch customers insisted on it, so the middle leading edge devices are heated. You can tell which ones they are by locating the vent holes underneath that allow the hot air to escape.


So of Airbus like I said some 320/330/380 etc operators have either not had that metal strip installed or they have painted it and this includes the newer generation of NEO’s, but yet to see an A350 without it, so wasn’t sure if it was just something airlines have not done yet or chosen not to do, or if because it’s a clean sheet design that it is standard and can’t be removed or painted, that’s pretty much the question.
Perhaps it's to do with the fact that the tailplanes are carbon fibre and this is a metallic protection strip against any impacts?


Well and I initially thought perhaps this may be the case but isn’t the A380 tail carbon fiber? And some of them don’t have the metal leading edge to it. Lol feel like a lot of people are getting stuck on the anti ice thing. I understand now it isn’t anti ice… Probably the metal leading edge is just to protect the tail from impacts, but still doesn’t answer the actual question… why do some airlines have it on their Airbus fleet and some don’t? And is it an option to not have on the A350?
 
kalvado
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:05 pm

XLA2008 wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
XLA2008 wrote:

So of Airbus like I said some 320/330/380 etc operators have either not had that metal strip installed or they have painted it and this includes the newer generation of NEO’s, but yet to see an A350 without it, so wasn’t sure if it was just something airlines have not done yet or chosen not to do, or if because it’s a clean sheet design that it is standard and can’t be removed or painted, that’s pretty much the question.
Perhaps it's to do with the fact that the tailplanes are carbon fibre and this is a metallic protection strip against any impacts?


Well and I initially thought perhaps this may be the case but isn’t the A380 tail carbon fiber? And some of them don’t have the metal leading edge to it. Lol feel like a lot of people are getting stuck on the anti ice thing. I understand now it isn’t anti ice… Probably the metal leading edge is just to protect the tail from impacts, but still doesn’t answer the actual question… why do some airlines have it on their Airbus fleet and some don’t? And is it an option to not have on the A350?

As a wild guess, being higher off the ground can play a role - assuming most of abrasion comes from runway, and not from sandstorms
 
N1120A
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:46 pm

Tail stall really isn't an issue with transport category aircraft. While smaller aircraft definitely need tail deice to be FIKI certified, big jets really don't.
 
deebee278
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:07 pm

True, most airliners don't have tail deice. However, there is a major exception, the MD80. You press a button and the horizontal stabilizer is heated for 2 1/2 minutes. You would use it when exiting icing conditions before shutting the entire anti-ice system down. More importantly, if landing in an icing situation, you would hit the button before landing, say, at the outer marker. Some crews forgot and got an unpleasant surprise when they tried to flare for landing. Every time I went to recurrent ground school, that was emphasized, so I remember even now after 22 years off the type!
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:57 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
None of the Airbusses have tailplane anti-ice.
All have wing and nacelle anti-ice.
As on the 777, the A380 wasn't supposed to have wing anti-ice. But iirc the authorities insisted on it and there is anti-ice between the engines on the leading edge.

Why wouldn't they have wing anti-ice.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:17 pm

The C-5 didn’t have wing or tail anti-ice. We’d fly for 4 hours in icing conditions, low speed, not accumulate enough ice to chill a 6-pack of beer.
 
N1120A
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:10 am

AirKevin wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
None of the Airbusses have tailplane anti-ice.
All have wing and nacelle anti-ice.
As on the 777, the A380 wasn't supposed to have wing anti-ice. But iirc the authorities insisted on it and there is anti-ice between the engines on the leading edge.

Why wouldn't they have wing anti-ice.


They both have ridiculously big wings and the designs are not susceptible to ice build up.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:28 am

Going back to the metal strip on the fin leading edge, I am fairly sure all A350s come with it. Some operators may just choose to paint it for aesthetics.

I can't think of any operators with the strip painted. Which ones are you thinking of?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 am

N1120A wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
ReverseFlow wrote:
None of the Airbusses have tailplane anti-ice.
All have wing and nacelle anti-ice.
As on the 777, the A380 wasn't supposed to have wing anti-ice. But iirc the authorities insisted on it and there is anti-ice between the engines on the leading edge.

Why wouldn't they have wing anti-ice.


They both have ridiculously big wings and the designs are not susceptible to ice build up.


To be fair, the A-10 wing wasn’t ridiculously big (fat, maybe); no anti-icing wings or engines and we’d fly around in the Northeast winters, ice building on the pylons, the stores, but wings stayed pretty clean. Beech Baron in those conditions might have a very different flight—I’ve been pretty scared in ice in a light twin with only boots.
 
battlegroup62
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Going back to the metal strip on the fin leading edge, I am fairly sure all A350s come with it. Some operators may just choose to paint it for aesthetics.

I can't think of any operators with the strip painted. Which ones are you thinking of?



Since it is for erosion protection it is likely that they are painted from factory, but the paint erodes off so fast it is not worth trying to repaint.
 
kalvado
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:41 am

battlegroup62 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Going back to the metal strip on the fin leading edge, I am fairly sure all A350s come with it. Some operators may just choose to paint it for aesthetics.

I can't think of any operators with the strip painted. Which ones are you thinking of?



Since it is for erosion protection it is likely that they are painted from factory, but the paint erodes off so fast it is not worth trying to repaint.

Al Baker just called and asked for more details on that.
 
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Horstroad
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:20 am

deebee278 wrote:
True, most airliners don't have tail deice. However, there is a major exception, the MD80.

The MD-11 also has tail anti ice.
 
N1120A
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Re: Tail Anti-Ice leading edge question.

Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:07 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
N1120A wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Why wouldn't they have wing anti-ice.


They both have ridiculously big wings and the designs are not susceptible to ice build up.


To be fair, the A-10 wing wasn’t ridiculously big (fat, maybe); no anti-icing wings or engines and we’d fly around in the Northeast winters, ice building on the pylons, the stores, but wings stayed pretty clean. Beech Baron in those conditions might have a very different flight—I’ve been pretty scared in ice in a light twin with only boots.


A fat wing certainly helps - just ask any Navajo driver. Barons with full, FIKI rated deice can get rid of enough to stay safe, but you definitely don't want to hang around. The old, non-FIKI ones are not as good. While A10s aren't fast for military fast jets, they are fast and pretty good at getting enough friction to prevent some icing as well.

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