Triple-Simultaneous Landings

Sdmccray1984 · Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:03 am

I live directly under the final approach of CLT and while we have long been able to handle triple simultaneous landings, I’ve never seen them happen as frequently as they do now. At our busiest banks of flights, it’s literally 3 planes landing side by side, followed by another 3 planes side by side right behind them. While a number of airports are technically capable of doing that, at which other airports is this a TYPICAL sight? Thanks guys!

LabQuest · Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:24 am

Okcflyer · Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:59 am

IAH 26R/26L/27

DFW17L · Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:00 am

DFW parallels arrivals on 18R + 17C + 17L (and 13R on the diagonal) makes it four.

Web500sjc · Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:18 am

ORD and DTW.

zuckie13 · Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:05 pm

DEN. Happened on my trip a few weeks ago (and all the time I believe). I was on a flight landing 35R watchign the planes next to us land on 35L and 34R. The also were departing on the other three runways (34L, 8 and 25)

Woodreau · Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:39 pm

While not side by side. ORD used to before the whole runway reconfiguration do 14R 22R and 27R (present day 27L / present day 27R didn’t exist back then) triple simultaneous landings and depart 27L (present day 28R) and 22L simultaneously.

phugoid1982 · Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:53 pm

Seen it quite a bit at IAD when spotting from the Tower at the Hazy at the Smithsonian.

N1120A · Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:03 pm

I think LAX can do them at times on 24R/L and 25L.

IFlyVeryLittle · Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:46 pm

Quick question on this: when triple (or even side by side) parallel landings are in progress, are the aircraft required to literally be abeam of each other instead of them being offset by a few hundred yards one way or the other?

IAHFLYR · Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:24 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
Quick question on this: when triple (or even side by side) parallel landings are in progress, are the aircraft required to literally be abeam of each other instead of them being offset by a few hundred yards one way or the other?

There is no requirement to be abeam each other nor offset......they can be side by side. If you have a heavy jet on one runway of course wake turbulence separation is applied to the following aircraft while the other two runways are running at minimum separation so so there will be a bit of offset from the final the heavy jet is taking. Triple approaches are fun to work and as long as you hit your turn on altitude requirements as the final controllers it's a fast way to get the bank on the ground quickly.

I have to mention RNP approaches off the outboard runways who don't need the required altitude separation when turning final. Check them out on ADS-B Exchange at IAH during the arrival banks. The RNP qualified airplane turn well inside of those who are not capable. So since the UAL Airbus fleet is not RNP qualified there could be a number of qualified planes flying the RNP approach to 26R/27, 8L/9 while the E145 or A320 ahead of them on downwind keeps flying downwind. Great concept and saves loads of time and money for the airlines/corporate folks.

IAHFLYR · Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:25 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
Quick question on this: when triple (or even side by side) parallel landings are in progress, are the aircraft required to literally be abeam of each other instead of them being offset by a few hundred yards one way or the other?

There is no requirement to be abeam each other nor offset......they can be side by side. If you have a heavy jet on one runway of course wake turbulence separation is applied to the following aircraft while the other two runways are running at minimum separation so so there will be a bit of offset from the final the heavy jet is taking. Triple approaches are fun to work and as long as you hit your turn on altitude requirements as the final controllers, it's a fast way to get the bank on the ground quickly.

I have to mention RNP approaches off the outboard runways who don't need the required altitude separation when turning final. Check them out on ADS-B Exchange at IAH during the arrival banks. The RNP qualified airplane turn well inside of those who are not capable. So since the UAL Airbus fleet is not RNP qualified there could be a number of qualified planes flying the RNP approach to 26R/27, 8L/9 while the E145 or A320 ahead of them on downwind keeps flying downwind. Great concept and saves loads of time and money for the airlines/corporate folks.

leader1 · Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:14 am

What are some of the non-US airports that can handle triple simultaneous landings? I know IST can. I’m pretty sure it can be done at AMS, but I’ve never seen it before and I don’t think they use more than three runways at a time. How about PKX, PEK, PVG and KUL?

Velocirapture · Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:56 am

zuckie13 wrote:
DEN. Happened on my trip a few weeks ago (and all the time I believe). I was on a flight landing 35R watchign the planes next to us land on 35L and 34R. The also were departing on the other three runways (34L, 8 and 25)

IIRC, the first day DEN was open was a winter storm and they ran triple simultaneous ILS'.

CARST · Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:55 am

I had that like every time we landed at PEK. Also for departures. It is very interesting when you see two aircraft flying parallel to you...

CarlosSi · Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:00 pm

ORD in theory could do quad arrivals now, no? 9L, 9C, 10C, 10R? I imagine it's not so simple to do so for separation purposes.

rigo · Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:18 am

leader1 wrote:
What are some of the non-US airports that can handle triple simultaneous landings? I know IST can. I’m pretty sure it can be done at AMS, but I’ve never seen it before and I don’t think they use more than three runways at a time. How about PKX, PEK, PVG and KUL?

I think CDG can theoretically allow it, not sure if it's actually done.

Chemist · Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:29 am

In SFO they run parallel approaches to manage takeoffs timed on the intersecting runways.
Theoretically LAX could do at least 3 parallel, perhaps 4 if in VMC (aren't one set of runways too close together?

ILikeTrains · Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:30 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
ORD in theory could do quad arrivals now, no? 9L, 9C, 10C, 10R? I imagine it's not so simple to do so for separation purposes.

I’m not sure as to why O’Hare doesn’t run quad approaches, separation wise they are fine. >5000ft between the 9/27 arrival runways, plenty of space between the north & south complex. The 10/28 arrival runways need PRM approaches since they’re just over 3000ft apart, and they usually only run that when the 9/10 runways are active.

I imagine Its a combo of them not really needing quad approaches for now, and the necessary staffing needed to have both the north and south control towers ready for that many approaches/landings.

IAHFLYR · Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:59 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
I imagine Its a combo of them not really needing quad approaches for now, and the necessary staffing needed to have both the north and south control towers ready for that many approaches/landings.

Plus final monitors in the TRACON for each runway as well as well as a final controller for each runway, though you could have one final controller for a couple of runways just not a normal op doing it that way!

AndrewJM70 · Fri Jul 15, 2022 4:41 pm

I believe Air Canada tried it once at SFO. They forgot that SFO only had two parallels!

leader1 · Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:05 am

rigo wrote:
leader1 wrote:
What are some of the non-US airports that can handle triple simultaneous landings? I know IST can. I’m pretty sure it can be done at AMS, but I’ve never seen it before and I don’t think they use more than three runways at a time. How about PKX, PEK, PVG and KUL?

I think CDG can theoretically allow it, not sure if it's actually done.

The only European airports that can theoretically allow triple simultaneous arrivals are IST and AMS. CDG has parallel landings, but not triple - the runways are too close together on the north and south complexes. I know triple simultaneous arrivals are done at IST, but not AMS, as they don’t use more than three runways at a time and will only use two of them for arrivals and the other for departures during the arrival rushes.

Anyways, I found a list of airports capable of triple simultaneous landings and takeoffs. Not all of them use this capability. Most of them are in the US, but there are some outside. With SIN, I thought 20L/2R is only used by the military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... prov=sfti1

Starlionblue · Sun Jul 24, 2022 2:08 am

leader1 wrote:
rigo wrote:
leader1 wrote:
What are some of the non-US airports that can handle triple simultaneous landings? I know IST can. I’m pretty sure it can be done at AMS, but I’ve never seen it before and I don’t think they use more than three runways at a time. How about PKX, PEK, PVG and KUL?

I think CDG can theoretically allow it, not sure if it's actually done.

The only European airports that can theoretically allow triple simultaneous arrivals are IST and AMS. CDG has parallel landings, but not triple - the runways are too close together on the north and south complexes. I know triple simultaneous arrivals are done at IST, but not AMS, as they don’t use more than three runways at a time and will only use two of them for arrivals and the other for departures during the arrival rushes.

Anyways, I found a list of airports capable of triple simultaneous landings and takeoffs. Not all of them use this capability. Most of them are in the US, but there are some outside. With SIN, I thought 20L/2R is only used by the military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... prov=sfti1

20L/02R at SIN is indeed military only. This would not preclude simultaneous landings, however.

HKG should theoretically support triple simultaneous landings once 07C/25C reopens in a few years. At least in terms of final. All the high terrain might make it complicated in terms of coordinating the intermediate approaches, however.

leader1 · Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:41 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
leader1 wrote:
rigo wrote:

I think CDG can theoretically allow it, not sure if it's actually done.

The only European airports that can theoretically allow triple simultaneous arrivals are IST and AMS. CDG has parallel landings, but not triple - the runways are too close together on the north and south complexes. I know triple simultaneous arrivals are done at IST, but not AMS, as they don’t use more than three runways at a time and will only use two of them for arrivals and the other for departures during the arrival rushes.

Anyways, I found a list of airports capable of triple simultaneous landings and takeoffs. Not all of them use this capability. Most of them are in the US, but there are some outside. With SIN, I thought 20L/2R is only used by the military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... prov=sfti1

20L/02R at SIN is indeed military only. This would not preclude simultaneous landings, however.

HKG should theoretically support triple simultaneous landings once 07C/25C reopens in a few years. At least in terms of final. All the high terrain might make it complicated in terms of coordinating the intermediate approaches, however.

That’s true. Curious if they actually have simultaneous landings with military craft beside civilian ones. Would be a cool sight.

Just curious, but are there any plans to eventually allow civilian use with 20L/2R?

With HKG, I understand that the terrain and airspace issues don’t allow simultaneous landings.

HAWKXP · Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:46 am

Oshkosh-3 at a time on same runway, :duck:

GalaxyFlyer · Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:59 am

HAWKXP wrote:
Oshkosh-3 at a time on same runway,

The old Reading Show did that, too.

GalaxyFlyer · Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:00 am

Starlionblue wrote:
leader1 wrote:
rigo wrote:

I think CDG can theoretically allow it, not sure if it's actually done.

The only European airports that can theoretically allow triple simultaneous arrivals are IST and AMS. CDG has parallel landings, but not triple - the runways are too close together on the north and south complexes. I know triple simultaneous arrivals are done at IST, but not AMS, as they don’t use more than three runways at a time and will only use two of them for arrivals and the other for departures during the arrival rushes.

Anyways, I found a list of airports capable of triple simultaneous landings and takeoffs. Not all of them use this capability. Most of them are in the US, but there are some outside. With SIN, I thought 20L/2R is only used by the military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... prov=sfti1

20L/02R at SIN is indeed military only. This would not preclude simultaneous landings, however.

HKG should theoretically support triple simultaneous landings once 07C/25C reopens in a few years. At least in terms of final. All the high terrain might make it complicated in terms of coordinating the intermediate approaches, however.

I’ve used 20L at SIN doing demo flights after the Singapore shows. Whether the other runways had landing traffic, I cannot say,

rjsampson · Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:09 pm

Is ATL the only airport that consistently (ie: always, during busy times -- and frequently when not) does triple concurrent landings?

DFW17L · Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:28 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Is ATL the only airport that consistently (ie: always, during busy times -- and frequently when not) does triple concurrent landings?

DFW...consistently. I can look West from my home and see aircraft arriving on 17L, 17C, and 18R. I can't see the fourth, 13R, on the diag, because it's too far away. It's really quite beautiful to watch an arrival bank. I'd estimate it take 30 - 45 minutes to complete the bank, which occurs throughout the day/night.

AirKevin · Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:31 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Is ATL the only airport that consistently (ie: always, during busy times -- and frequently when not) does triple concurrent landings?

Does ORD not do this.

leader1 · Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:05 am

rjsampson wrote:
Is ATL the only airport that consistently (ie: always, during busy times -- and frequently when not) does triple concurrent landings?

No. DFW, ORD, DEN and IAH also consistently had periods where they used three runways for landings. At least this was the case before the pandemic. Other airports, like IAD, CLT and DTW have the capability, but I don’t think they had the traffic volume that necessitated triple simultaneous landings on a consistent basis.

Airports might be busier now, but they’re still not handling close to the same number of movements like they did before and probably don’t need three runways for landings. I think I’ve only seen ORD, DFW and ATL use three arrival runways since the pandemic started and not as much as before.

DFW17L · Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:12 am

leader1 wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Is ATL the only airport that consistently (ie: always, during busy times -- and frequently when not) does triple concurrent landings?

No. DFW, ORD, DEN and IAH also consistently had periods where they used three runways for landings. At least this was the case before the pandemic. Other airports, like IAD, CLT and DTW have the capability, but I don’t think they had the traffic volume that necessitated triple simultaneous landings on a consistent basis.

Airports might be busier now, but they’re still not handling close to the same number of movements like they did before and probably don’t need three runways for landings. I think I’ve only seen ORD, DFW and ATL use three arrival runways since the pandemic started and not as much as before.

DFW is doing triple arrivals a *lot*(I.e. consistently). Throw in 13R and you have four.

IAHFLYR · Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:57 pm

DFW17L wrote:
DFW is doing triple arrivals a *lot*(I.e. consistently). Throw in 13R and you have four.

IAH is doing TRIPS right now and does so many times each day when landing west. The RNP's to 26R and 27 are popular with pilots and controllers.

timz · Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:32 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
when triple (or even side by side) parallel landings are in progress, are the aircraft required to literally be abeam of each other...

When aircraft are landing parallel on the 28s at SFO, the tower would naturally like them to be abeam each other, allowing more time for departures off runways 1. But I think the controllers aren't allowed to ask.

Starlionblue · Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:10 am

timz wrote:
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
when triple (or even side by side) parallel landings are in progress, are the aircraft required to literally be abeam of each other...

When aircraft are landing parallel on the 28s at SFO, the tower would naturally like them to be abeam each other, allowing more time for departures off runways 1. But I think the controllers aren't allowed to ask.

More likely there's only so much they can do. Different aircraft have different approach speeds, and we don't all, or always, decelerate exactly at the same point(s) on base and final. Approach spaces us as best they are able, with vectors and speed control, but once we're within 4-5 miles we have to slow to approach speed.

This isn't a problem unique to multiple runways of course. During busy times, the controllers want minimum spacing on approach for efficiency, but at some point on the approach we can't be speed controlled anymore, so the approach controller needs to just space us as best he/she can, with some buffer for varying approach speeds. Too much spacing, and you land fewer planes in a given period of time than you need to. Too little spacing, and you have to send guys around.

IAHFLYR · Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:14 pm

timz wrote:
But I think the controllers aren't allowed to ask.

What are controllers not allowed to ask?

Velocirapture · Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:45 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
timz wrote:
But I think the controllers aren't allowed to ask.

What are controllers not allowed to ask?

They're no longer allowed to ask aircraft to fly abeam of the other traffic for the 28s at SFO.

IAHFLYR · Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:16 pm

Velocirapture wrote:
They're no longer allowed to ask aircraft to fly abeam of the other traffic for the 28s at SFO.

Well I don't propose that I ever worked at NorCal TRACON, but landing 28's at SFO they are using visual separation which simply put gives the pilot the responsibility for separation from the other airplane on the parallel runway. Love to see the FAA Order that either the facility or FAA HQ put out stating what you are actually referring.

hongkongflyer · Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:38 am

Starlionblue wrote:
leader1 wrote:
rigo wrote:

I think CDG can theoretically allow it, not sure if it's actually done.

The only European airports that can theoretically allow triple simultaneous arrivals are IST and AMS. CDG has parallel landings, but not triple - the runways are too close together on the north and south complexes. I know triple simultaneous arrivals are done at IST, but not AMS, as they don’t use more than three runways at a time and will only use two of them for arrivals and the other for departures during the arrival rushes.

Anyways, I found a list of airports capable of triple simultaneous landings and takeoffs. Not all of them use this capability. Most of them are in the US, but there are some outside. With SIN, I thought 20L/2R is only used by the military?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... prov=sfti1

20L/02R at SIN is indeed military only. This would not preclude simultaneous landings, however.

HKG should theoretically support triple simultaneous landings once 07C/25C reopens in a few years. At least in terms of final. All the high terrain might make it complicated in terms of coordinating the intermediate approaches, however.

No, the separation of two existing runways in HKG are not enough. Once all the upgrade finished, the middle runway will be for departure and the rest of two will be for landing (the one near the cargo ramp will be for cargo plane takeoff too)

IADFCO · Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:41 pm

Could IAD do it using 30R simultaneously with 19R/C/L? Is it allowed?

AirKevin · Thu Sep 08, 2022 2:52 am

IADFCO wrote:
Could IAD do it using 30R simultaneously with 19R/C/L? Is it allowed?

There is no 30R at IAD as far as I'm aware.

zuckie13 · Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:25 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Could IAD do it using 30R simultaneously with 19R/C/L? Is it allowed?

We'll just assume you mean 30. I guess they could, but it'd take some careful timing from ATC - they have to protect the go-arounds - someone coming up off the 19s would be crossing the approach path or over points where someone landing on 30 could be approaching or pop up.

I know listening at BWI when they are landing on 10 they have pay attention to the traffic on 15L holding departures so they won't be crossing off the end of 10 if someone goes around.

IAHFLYR · Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:45 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
Could IAD do it using 30R simultaneously with 19R/C/L? Is it allowed?

We'll just assume you mean 30. I guess they could, but it'd take some careful timing from ATC - they have to protect the go-arounds - someone coming up off the 19s would be crossing the approach path or over points where someone landing on 30 could be approaching or pop up.

There would be converging minimums similar to what DFW has which are pretty high, so take a look at their converging approach mins to 13/31.

IADFCO · Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:19 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
Could IAD do it using 30R simultaneously with 19R/C/L? Is it allowed?

We'll just assume you mean 30. I guess they could, but it'd take some careful timing from ATC - they have to protect the go-arounds - someone coming up off the 19s would be crossing the approach path or over points where someone landing on 30 could be approaching or pop up.

There would be converging minimums similar to what DFW has which are pretty high, so take a look at their converging approach mins to 13/31.

Yes, I did mean 30 (it's not 30R... yet!). Thanks for the replies. I had seen on Flightaware two of the 19s being used for landings while 30 was being used for takeoffs, but not simultaneously, so I had wondered whether simultaneous operations were possible.

atcdan · Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:49 am

IADFCO wrote:
IAHFLYR wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:

We'll just assume you mean 30. I guess they could, but it'd take some careful timing from ATC - they have to protect the go-arounds - someone coming up off the 19s would be crossing the approach path or over points where someone landing on 30 could be approaching or pop up.

There would be converging minimums similar to what DFW has which are pretty high, so take a look at their converging approach mins to 13/31.

Yes, I did mean 30 (it's not 30R... yet!). Thanks for the replies. I had seen on Flightaware two of the 19s being used for landings while 30 was being used for takeoffs, but not simultaneously, so I had wondered whether simultaneous operations were possible.

To add. The FAA/ATC use a procedure called Converging Runway Operations for what you describe. Based on criteria which Dulles’s runways nearly certainly fall under, the controllers must treat the 19s and 30 as if they are intersecting runways due to their close proximity.

This means a departure off 30 cannot start takeoff roll until the arrival to the converging 19 is at taxi speed AND the departure will be through the projected intersection prior to the next arrival for the 19s crossing the threshold of the respective runway.

Velocirapture · Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:18 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
Velocirapture wrote:
They're no longer allowed to ask aircraft to fly abeam of the other traffic for the 28s at SFO.

Well I don't propose that I ever worked at NorCal TRACON, but landing 28's at SFO they are using visual separation which simply put gives the pilot the responsibility for separation from the other airplane on the parallel runway. Love to see the FAA Order that either the facility or FAA HQ put out stating what you are actually referring.

The apparent benefit of the past practice of asking aircraft to fly alongside each other to the 28s was it helped with the departure rate off the 1s. As it is now, though, if the arrivals get strung out a bit, it delays the departures from the 1s until both "landers" are clearing the runway intersections.

IAHFLYR · Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:27 pm

Velocirapture wrote:
The apparent benefit of the past practice of asking aircraft to fly alongside each other to the 28s was it helped with the departure rate off the 1s. As it is now, though, if the arrivals get strung out a bit, it delays the departures from the 1s until both "landers" are clearing the runway intersections.

Again, though I never worked NorCal I will say that I cannot imagine they'd ask them to fly side by side, visual separation on final to parallel runways is just that and if they want to pair up as such great. I never asked anyone to fly side by side on visuals even when they were landing 14L/R (seldom used) at IAH waaaaaaaay back in the day, just maintain visual with the other plane.

atcdan · Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:09 am

IAHFLYR wrote:
Velocirapture wrote:
The apparent benefit of the past practice of asking aircraft to fly alongside each other to the 28s was it helped with the departure rate off the 1s. As it is now, though, if the arrivals get strung out a bit, it delays the departures from the 1s until both "landers" are clearing the runway intersections.

Again, though I never worked NorCal I will say that I cannot imagine they'd ask them to fly side by side, visual separation on final to parallel runways is just that and if they want to pair up as such great. I never asked anyone to fly side by side on visuals even when they were landing 14L/R (seldom used) at IAH waaaaaaaay back in the day, just maintain visual with the other plane.

They do ask them to fly nearly side by side as they need them to both pass the intersection of the 1’s around the same time to get the departures out, really a fascinating operation.

IAHFLYR · Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:39 pm

atcdan wrote:
They do ask them to fly nearly side by side as they need them to both pass the intersection of the 1’s around the same time to get the departures out, really a fascinating operation.

Yep, makes perfect sense to do that, though guess I was more thinking along the lines of just pair them up using vectors and then clear them for the visual. Although with different approach speeds of say an E175 vs a B739ER the E175 may have to keep the pedal to the metal a bit longer to keep up or closely keep up.

I also didn't have to deal with that at IAH as our arrival didn't have intersecting runways. :veryhappy:

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