I travel frequently and always take a window seat. Not only to enjoy the view while flying, but also to ensure that the flaps/slats are set for takeoff. There were a few accidents in the 80s/90s where the crew were distracted and didn't set them properly and ended up crashing during take off. Those accidents are always in the back of my mind when I fly. My question is this. With all of the technology available today, is it even possible for this to happen today on a modern airliner? What I mean is, are the cockpit crew even "allowed" to apply take off power to the engines if the slats/flaps aren't set for takeoff? To me, it would make sense to have the planes programmed to NOT allow takeoff power to be applied, unless it has been specifically overwritten, say for an engine test or something similar. So if an engine needed to be tested, the cockpit crew would select a certain setting, and THEN could apply takeoff power to test the engine without the flaps/slats being properly deployed. If today's modern airliners are not programmed like this, I think they should be as to me, it seems like a very simple, life saving thing. So, does anyone have an answer to this? Thanks.

If I remember well, the Fokker 100 (maybe the F70 aswell) can takeoff normally without any usage of flaps/slats, depending on the conditions.
Not so sure about other aircraft... specially MD-80 series! Northwest and Spanair crashes come to mind

Some aircraft can routinely take off without flaps by design under certain parameters; F28s and F100s come to mind.

You can certainly apply take-off power without having the flaps or slats set. You would also get the take-off configuration warning in the process.

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Most modern commercial aircraft have a takeoff configuration warning, but that does not ensure that the flaps are in the correct setting, only that the flaps are within the takeoff setting range. Flap settings are typically reviewed on at least two checklists prior to takeoff, but this varies by airline.

Boeing 767-200 and even Airbus A300-600R are made to take off with only LE devices and no TE at all, depending on present weight and meteo.
Here at my airport, Faro, south of Portugal, along the years as well the F100 &70, i've seen lots of 762's (Britannia, Excel) and AB6's(Lufti) doing T/O with only leading edge devices(slats), and no trailing edge (flaps) at all.
IIRC also the oldies DC9s were capable to do the same.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/US-Airw ... /1000447/L

Commenting on AngelsDecay, the original DC-9, the -10 series, did not have leading edge slats. They were added from the -30 series onward to improve performance (ex. the -20 is a -10 fuselage with -30 wings).

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

Interesting, the EA B727 had take-off configuration warning system.

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system.

Which 737 was this. Only asking because as far as I know, it has a take-off configuration warning. In fact, this caused some befuddlement with the crew of Helios 522 because they couldn't figure out why they had a take-off configuration warning in flight. Unbeknownst to them, it was actually the cabin altitude warning, but use the same warning sound as the take-off configuration warning.

phxtravelboy wrote:

I travel frequently and always take a window seat. Not only to enjoy the view while flying, but also to ensure that the flaps/slats are set for takeoff. There were a few accidents in the 80s/90s where the crew were distracted and didn't set them properly and ended up crashing during take off. Those accidents are always in the back of my mind when I fly. My question is this. With all of the technology available today, is it even possible for this to happen today on a modern airliner? What I mean is, are the cockpit crew even "allowed" to apply take off power to the engines if the slats/flaps aren't set for takeoff? To me, it would make sense to have the planes programmed to NOT allow takeoff power to be applied, unless it has been specifically overwritten, say for an engine test or something similar. So if an engine needed to be tested, the cockpit crew would select a certain setting, and THEN could apply takeoff power to test the engine without the flaps/slats being properly deployed. If today's modern airliners are not programmed like this, I think they should be as to me, it seems like a very simple, life saving thing. So, does anyone have an answer to this? Thanks.

On the 'bus, once everything is set for takeoff you need to press the "TO CONFIG" button. This will run a systems check. At this point, ECAM MEMO items will show "no blue", meaning all good.

Also, if you try to set takeoff thrust with the wrong configuration, e.g. the parking brake set or flaps at zero, you'll get the config warning.


Northwest Airlines 255 famously crashed due to not having set high lift devices for takeoff. If memory serves, and please correct me if I am wrong, the configuration warning would sound at rather a low thrust setting, so you'd get "nuisance warnings" during taxi since the high lift devices were not extended yet, as was the procedure at the time.

The "procedure", definitely not approved but constatnly used, was to reach back and pull the appropriate circuit breaker by feel, deactivating the warning. When one of the crash investigators looked at another tail in the fleet, he saw that the breaker was all greasy and shiny due to being constantly pulled and reseated.

In the case of flight 255, the crew was distracted by a long taxi and some delays. So they both forgot to reseat the breaker and to set the high lift devices correctly.

After the crash, checklists through the industry were overhauled, making them clearer and with "section breaks" so that you would not have long sequences where you could easily lose your place.

The MD-80 configuration warning was also reworked to avoid the nuisance warnings.

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

The 737s and 767s I’ve flown do.

Do I remember an accident in Spain on a MD80 series with no devices deployed, not sure if they had a config warning.

zeke wrote:

Do I remember an accident in Spain on a MD80 series with no devices deployed, not sure if they had a config warning.

The Spanair 5022 crash. Seems the takeoff warning system did not work properly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022

Thanks the hamsters in the wheel are in COS18, don’t remember as much

Thank you all for your posts. So it sounds like there is at least a warning that would alert the crew if the plane wasn't configured properly. THAT was my main question as to me it makes sense they'd be alerted.

As another poster stated, yes, I've noticed that most airlines deploy the flaps/slats before even beginning to taxi.

Here's a quote from the NTSB on the NW Detroit DC-9 crash that killed 156 people:

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the accident was the flightcrew’s failure to use the taxi checklist to ensure that the flaps and slats were extended for takeoff. Contributing to the accident was the absence of electrical power to the airplane takeoff warning system which thus did not warn the flightcrew that the airplane was not configured properly for takeoff. The reason for the absence of electrical power could not be determined."

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

That’s not correct. The 767 most certainly does have a takeoff configuration warning system in EICAS. The 737 has a takeoff configuration horn.

AirKevin wrote:

You can certainly apply take-off power without having the flaps or slats set. You would also get the take-off configuration warning in the process.

On Boeing non-737 models, the Autothrottle will not engage for takeoff if the Flaps are not in a valid takeoff setting. On the 777-9, the Autothrottle won’t engage in TO/GA for any takeoff configuration issue.

Boeing looked at preventing takeoff power or automatically retarding thrust levers or thrust on the 777-9 if you set takeoff thrust and the Folding Wingtips are not down and locked. This was not feasible. The failure modes are too hazardous. It wouldn’t be certifiable. For example, what if the system malfunctioned right at rotation and automatically cut thrust to idle. That would be catastrophic.

It’s not currently feasible from a failure hazard standpoint to implement a system that prevents setting takeoff power or automatically retards it for an out of configuration issue.

I don’t believe the F100 has slats even installed, like the F28

BoeingGuy wrote:

AirKevin wrote:

You can certainly apply take-off power without having the flaps or slats set. You would also get the take-off configuration warning in the process.

On Boeing non-737 models, the Autothrottle will not engage for takeoff if the Flaps are not in a valid takeoff setting. On the 777-9, the Autothrottle won’t engage in TO/GA for any takeoff configuration issue.

Boeing looked at preventing takeoff power or automatically retarding thrust levers or thrust on the 777-9 if you set takeoff thrust and the Folding Wingtips are not down and locked. This was not feasible. The failure modes are too hazardous. It wouldn’t be certifiable. For example, what if the system malfunctioned right at rotation and automatically cut thrust to idle. That would be catastrophic.

It’s not currently feasible from a failure hazard standpoint to implement a system that prevents setting takeoff power or automatically retards it for an out of configuration issue.

Makes sense. I'd much rather have the thrust on than "maybe off" in that situation. Once you're past 100 knots you really want to "go" in almost all cases. Even if the parking brake is on.

leleko747 wrote:

If I remember well, the Fokker 100 (maybe the F70 aswell) can takeoff normally without any usage of flaps/slats, depending on the conditions.
Not so sure about other aircraft... specially MD-80 series! Northwest and Spanair crashes come to mind

Ick..Horizon used to have these...like riding on a piece of plywood over the Rockies...

bhill wrote:

leleko747 wrote:

If I remember well, the Fokker 100 (maybe the F70 aswell) can takeoff normally without any usage of flaps/slats, depending on the conditions.
Not so sure about other aircraft... specially MD-80 series! Northwest and Spanair crashes come to mind

Ick..Horizon used to have these...like riding on a piece of plywood over the Rockies...

As others noted, the 767-200 and 757-200 are certified for FLAPS 1 takeoff, which is slats only with no flaps. The 767-300, 767-400, and KC-46 are not certified for FLAPS 1 takeoff, however.

BoeingGuy wrote:

bhill wrote:

leleko747 wrote:

If I remember well, the Fokker 100 (maybe the F70 aswell) can takeoff normally without any usage of flaps/slats, depending on the conditions.
Not so sure about other aircraft... specially MD-80 series! Northwest and Spanair crashes come to mind

Ick..Horizon used to have these...like riding on a piece of plywood over the Rockies...

As others noted, the 767-200 and 757-200 are certified for FLAPS 1 takeoff, which is slats only with no flaps. The 767-300, 767-400, and KC-46 are not certified for FLAPS 1 takeoff, however.

Flaps 1 is slats only on the 767. The 757 is slats and 1 degree of trailing edge flaps.

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

I'm a 757/-200 and 767-300ER Captain, Instructor, Check Airman, Aircrew Program Designee (TRI/TRE). I can say without a doubt that the 767-300ER has a Takeoff Configuration Warning System. It monitors the status of the high lift devices, horizontal stabilizer trim, and parking brake. Although I coild be wrong, I'd be surprised if any Ttansport Category aircraft does not have a TOCWS.

I can’t think of a modern Part 25 bizjet that doesn’t have a TO CONFIG warning system.

DualQual wrote:

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

The 737s and 767s I’ve flown do.

IIRC, the Take Off Configuration Warning System at my carrier was added by the airline after operating the type for several years. Also IIRC, the first batch of 737NGs were also delivered without such a system, but later deliveries came from Boeing equipped that way.

FlyingMSY wrote:

Commenting on AngelsDecay, the original DC-9, the -10 series, did not have leading edge slats. They were added from the -30 series onward to improve performance (ex. the -20 is a -10 fuselage with -30 wings).

It probably wasn't SOP or done very often, but I talked with several pilots back in the day who said when lightly loaded, they could adjust the stab setting on the T/O roll until the nose started to rise in the baby (-10) 9s.

exFWAOONW wrote:

FlyingMSY wrote:

Commenting on AngelsDecay, the original DC-9, the -10 series, did not have leading edge slats. They were added from the -30 series onward to improve performance (ex. the -20 is a -10 fuselage with -30 wings).

It probably wasn't SOP or done very often, but I talked with several pilots back in the day who said when lightly loaded, they could adjust the stab setting on the T/O roll until the nose started to rise in the baby (-10) 9s.

Ah yes. The wild west days of aviation.

Starlionblue wrote:

exFWAOONW wrote:

FlyingMSY wrote:

Commenting on AngelsDecay, the original DC-9, the -10 series, did not have leading edge slats. They were added from the -30 series onward to improve performance (ex. the -20 is a -10 fuselage with -30 wings).

It probably wasn't SOP or done very often, but I talked with several pilots back in the day who said when lightly loaded, they could adjust the stab setting on the T/O roll until the nose started to rise in the baby (-10) 9s.

Ah yes. The wild west days of aviation.

Indeed, the early jet days were filled with horror stories.

I remember being very surprised to take-off in a KL A310 AMS-CDG without flaps extended, twice… Didn't seem to mean much to the airplane, though.

Second time I kinda remembered the first time (not the same year).

Can't tell about LE devices, I was seated after the wing.

Velocirapture wrote:

DualQual wrote:

a340crew wrote:

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

The 737s and 767s I’ve flown do.

IIRC, the Take Off Configuration Warning System at my carrier was added by the airline after operating the type for several years. Also IIRC, the first batch of 737NGs were also delivered without such a system, but later deliveries came from Boeing equipped that way.

Are you talking about a switch that on the panel that is installed that would theoretically make the warning sound, say, at the gate when the airplane is parked with flaps/slats up and the parking brake on and shouldn’t sound at all if pressed just before takeoff with brakes released and flaps/slats in a takeoff position? Only a few carriers have that option installed but I can assure you that the underlying system is still there from day 1 when the airplane is delivered and functions. The switch is just one more safety net to test the system works by simulating that the airplane is at takeoff. If not in a safe config the system alerts. If in a safe config the system doesn’t.

DualQual wrote:

Velocirapture wrote:

DualQual wrote:

The 737s and 767s I’ve flown do.

IIRC, the Take Off Configuration Warning System at my carrier was added by the airline after operating the type for several years. Also IIRC, the first batch of 737NGs were also delivered without such a system, but later deliveries came from Boeing equipped that way.

Are you talking about a switch that on the panel that is installed that would theoretically make the warning sound, say, at the gate when the airplane is parked with flaps/slats up and the parking brake on and shouldn’t sound at all if pressed just before takeoff with brakes released and flaps/slats in a takeoff position? Only a few carriers have that option installed but I can assure you that the underlying system is still there from day 1 when the airplane is delivered and functions. The switch is just one more safety net to test the system works by simulating that the airplane is at takeoff. If not in a safe config the system alerts. If in a safe config the system doesn’t.

Continental took that switch option that you refer too. All Boeing models have a Takeoff Configuration Warning System. It wasn’t added after the first batch of 737NGs.

On the Cessna Citation you are in fact NOT ALLOWED to take off with flaps if you have de/anti-icing fluid on the wings.
Pretty sure other small jets have the same restrictions.

I have 2500 hours in Citations, never heard of that one. There’s not even no flap data.

BoeingGuy wrote:

DualQual wrote:

Velocirapture wrote:

IIRC, the Take Off Configuration Warning System at my carrier was added by the airline after operating the type for several years. Also IIRC, the first batch of 737NGs were also delivered without such a system, but later deliveries came from Boeing equipped that way.

Are you talking about a switch that on the panel that is installed that would theoretically make the warning sound, say, at the gate when the airplane is parked with flaps/slats up and the parking brake on and shouldn’t sound at all if pressed just before takeoff with brakes released and flaps/slats in a takeoff position? Only a few carriers have that option installed but I can assure you that the underlying system is still there from day 1 when the airplane is delivered and functions. The switch is just one more safety net to test the system works by simulating that the airplane is at takeoff. If not in a safe config the system alerts. If in a safe config the system doesn’t.

Continental took that switch option that you refer too. All Boeing models have a Takeoff Configuration Warning System. It wasn’t added after the first batch of 737NGs.

That’s what I was driving at. Perhaps Velocirapture is confusing the switch option with the actual TCWS and we have a simple misunderstanding.

CRJ-100s and 200s do not have LE Devices or slats…

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

Based on that statement I refuse to believe you fly / flew those aircraft. 767s certainly do and always have had takeoff configuration warning systems.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I have 2500 hours in Citations, never heard of that one. There’s not even no flap data.

If I knew a way to send you a PDF here...
Just read again the Flightsafety Intl Pilot Training Manual for the CJ2 (which with regards to flight controls is the same for the +/3/4), and I quote...
"takeoff is limited to flaps up (0) position when Type II, Type III or Type IV anti-ice fluid is on the airplane".

I know it says the exact same in the POH, but I'm unable to find it being only on my phone right now.

Oops, CJ models, my time was in the originals, sorry.

Semaex wrote:

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

I have 2500 hours in Citations, never heard of that one. There’s not even no flap data.

If I knew a way to send you a PDF here...
Just read again the Flightsafety Intl Pilot Training Manual for the CJ2 (which with regards to flight controls is the same for the +/3/4), and I quote...
"takeoff is limited to flaps up (0) position when Type II, Type III or Type IV anti-ice fluid is on the airplane".

I know it says the exact same in the POH, but I'm unable to find it being only on my phone right now.

The 500 series its basically the same thing. We can take off flaps zero in normal conditions but you will really never see it

qcpilotxf wrote:

The 500 series its basically the same thing. We can take off flaps zero in normal conditions but you will really never see it

True, you can also just generally use Flaps 0 for takeoff on the C525, but as practically all departures are noise-abatement, you never use it. Unless as said with Icing Fluid on the wings, in which case safety trumps noise.

Semaex wrote:

qcpilotxf wrote:

The 500 series its basically the same thing. We can take off flaps zero in normal conditions but you will really never see it

True, you can also just generally use Flaps 0 for takeoff on the C525, but as practically all departures are noise-abatement, you never use it. Unless as said with Icing Fluid on the wings, in which case safety trumps noise.

As a non-pilot, why is this?

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... _703-1.pdf
Subject: TAKEOFF CONFIGURATION WARNING SYSTEMS
Date: 3/17 /93
AC No: 25. 703-1
5. DISCUSSION.
a. Regulatory Basis.
(1) Section 25.703 of the FAR, "Takeoff warning system," makes it
mandatory for a takeoff configuration warning system to be installed in
transport airplanes.

Slats CAN NOT be MEL'd, but their indication can. Don't know how up to date this MEL is, but sounds right....They have to work. Only penalty is a speed restriction....

"(M)(O) Indication lights on forward panel, and in addition, indication lights for one leading edge slat, except for slats 3, 4, 5 and 6, on overhead annunciator panel may be inoperative provided:

a) Normal operation is verified by flight crew before each takeoff and landing,

b) Maximum speed is limited to 300 KIAS at/below FL 200 or .65 Mach above FL 200,

c) All remaining indications on overhead annunciator panel operate normally, and

d) Stall warning operation of both systems is verified to operate normally."

atav wrote:

a340crew wrote:

ILUV767 wrote:

All transport category aircraft have some form of a take off configuration check/take off configuration warning to alert the crew should the airplane not be properly configured for take off.

Many airlines are making the setting of flaps a requirement prior to beginning the taxi.

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

Based on that statement I refuse to believe you fly / flew those aircraft. 767s certainly do and always have had takeoff configuration warning systems.

Yup.

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

MASTER MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

AIRCRAFT: B-767

REVISION NO: 36

DATE: 08/08/2013

PAGE: 31-3

SYSTEM &

SEQUENCE

NUMBERS

ITEM

31 INDICATING/RECORDING SYSTEMS

Takeoff Configuration Check (T/O CHK) Switch

May be inoperative provided procedures do not require its use.

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:

Semaex wrote:

qcpilotxf wrote:

The 500 series its basically the same thing. We can take off flaps zero in normal conditions but you will really never see it

True, you can also just generally use Flaps 0 for takeoff on the C525, but as practically all departures are noise-abatement, you never use it. Unless as said with Icing Fluid on the wings, in which case safety trumps noise.

As a non-pilot, why is this?

More flap gives you a shorter takeoff run and a higher initial climb gradient. If you use no flap you might not make the required climb gradient for noise abatement.

Conversely, less flap gives you a lower initial climb gradient, but a higher second segment climb gradient. This can be useful if there are obstacles in the departure path.

Starlionblue wrote:

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:

Semaex wrote:

True, you can also just generally use Flaps 0 for takeoff on the C525, but as practically all departures are noise-abatement, you never use it. Unless as said with Icing Fluid on the wings, in which case safety trumps noise.

As a non-pilot, why is this?

More flap gives you a shorter takeoff run and a higher initial climb gradient. If you use no flap you might not make the required climb gradient for noise abatement.

Conversely, less flap gives you a lower initial climb gradient, but a higher second segment climb gradient. This can be useful if there are obstacles in the departure path.

Or in the case listed above about the Citation... getting us fast enough to actually get the anti-ice fluid off the wings on the takeoff roll

bhill wrote:

leleko747 wrote:

If I remember well, the Fokker 100 (maybe the F70 aswell) can takeoff normally without any usage of flaps/slats, depending on the conditions.
Not so sure about other aircraft... specially MD-80 series! Northwest and Spanair crashes come to mind

Ick..Horizon used to have these...like riding on a piece of plywood over the Rockies...

Horizon had the F28, not the F100 or F70. No leading edge slats on the F28. I loved that airplane, fun to fly!

CALTECH wrote:

atav wrote:

a340crew wrote:

Not true, I can tell you from personal experience the 737 and 767 (flown both) do not have any warning system. We do have a before take off checklist which does have both pilots verify the flap/slat setting for take off.

Slats can be MEL'd but you take a huge take off penalty.

Based on that statement I refuse to believe you fly / flew those aircraft. 767s certainly do and always have had takeoff configuration warning systems.

Yup.

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

MASTER MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST

FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION

AIRCRAFT: B-767

REVISION NO: 36

DATE: 08/08/2013

PAGE: 31-3

SYSTEM &

SEQUENCE

NUMBERS

ITEM

31 INDICATING/RECORDING SYSTEMS

Takeoff Configuration Check (T/O CHK) Switch

May be inoperative provided procedures do not require its use.

This isn’t a good example. This is for the takeoff configuration check SWITCH. This is irrelevant to the conversation as we were discussing takeoff config systems being mandatory, not takeoff config tests. Do you know what an MEL is? It tells what components can be temporarily inoperative. This is why the system isn’t on any MEL. I’m still convinced you’re posing as a pilot, as all pilots are trained on how an MEL works.