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Avatar2go wrote:The 787 is much closer to a more-electric aircraft than most other models. This means that rather than distributing power in the form of bleed air or hydraulics, it distributes electricity from the much more powerful engine generators, to numerous electric devices running throughout the aircraft.
This is more efficient from a weight and performance perspective, but it also means more motors and other stuff operating throughout the flight. Also somewhat more reliance on the APU. Any of those things could produce some vibration, it you are sitting close to them.
Starlionblue wrote:
Small correction. The 787 has no bleed air system, but it does have hydraulic systems for flight controls and landing gear.
I don't know if the architecture makes it more reliant on the APU than other aircraft of the same era (e.g. A350). Electric is normally generated by the engines either way. The APU is used for engine start but that's the same for other aircraft. The difference is that electrics are used to start the 787 engines as opposed to bleed air for other types.
Avatar2go wrote:Any of those things could produce some vibration, it you are sitting close to them.
masi1157 wrote:Avatar2go wrote:Any of those things could produce some vibration, it you are sitting close to them.
Generators, electric motors, hydraulic pumps and motors do in fact emit vibrations. But their frequency is usually too high to be felt as "strong vibration" in feet, arms or body. And I don't see why such vibration would be observed in a B787-10, but not in the -8 or -9.
Avatar2go wrote:I can't speak to the quality of the vibrations felt by another. He asked about possible sources so I pointed out that the 787 has more distributed electric machinery than most aircraft. Also pointed out that it would depend on where he was seated, which may vary between flights.
masi1157 wrote:Avatar2go wrote:I can't speak to the quality of the vibrations felt by another. He asked about possible sources so I pointed out that the 787 has more distributed electric machinery than most aircraft. Also pointed out that it would depend on where he was seated, which may vary between flights.
Sure, but those sources you mentioned are not likely to produce "strong vibrations" that he felt in his feet. Simply because their frequency is too high for that. You would much rather hear them than feel them.
Starlionblue wrote:Avatar2go wrote:The 787 is much closer to a more-electric aircraft than most other models. This means that rather than distributing power in the form of bleed air or hydraulics, it distributes electricity from the much more powerful engine generators, to numerous electric devices running throughout the aircraft.
This is more efficient from a weight and performance perspective, but it also means more motors and other stuff operating throughout the flight. Also somewhat more reliance on the APU. Any of those things could produce some vibration, it you are sitting close to them.
Small correction. The 787 has no bleed air system, but it does have hydraulic systems for flight controls and landing gear.
I don't know if the architecture makes it more reliant on the APU than other aircraft of the same era (e.g. A350). Electric is normally generated by the engines either way. The APU is used for engine start but that's the same for other aircraft. The difference is that electrics are used to start the 787 engines as opposed to bleed air for other types.
Avatar2go wrote:Have to respectfully disagree. I can certainly feel vibrations from window AC units, and older refrigerators. Anything with a compressor would have vibrational modes you could feel though solid objects. In addition there are resonances that can develop within structures and surfaces which amplify the sensation. Again we don't know what the OP felt, so very difficult to quantify.
CALTECH wrote:Small correction, the 787 does have a bleed air system...
'787 Engine Anti-Ice
General System Description
The EAI (Engine Anti-Ice) system uses engine compressor bleed air to heat the leading edge of the engine cowl to prevent ice from forming.'
chimborazo wrote:As we got into cruise I noticed a really uncomfortable vibration cycle, similar to what I often feel on ships/ferries as best I can describe it. It was over about 8s or so as I remember, it would slowly build and then dissipate.
Starlionblue wrote:Avatar2go wrote:The 787 is much closer to a more-electric aircraft than most other models. This means that rather than distributing power in the form of bleed air or hydraulics, it distributes electricity from the much more powerful engine generators, to numerous electric devices running throughout the aircraft.
This is more efficient from a weight and performance perspective, but it also means more motors and other stuff operating throughout the flight. Also somewhat more reliance on the APU. Any of those things could produce some vibration, it you are sitting close to them.
Small correction. The 787 has no bleed air system, but it does have hydraulic systems for flight controls and landing gear.
I don't know if the architecture makes it more reliant on the APU than other aircraft of the same era (e.g. A350). Electric is normally generated by the engines either way. The APU is used for engine start but that's the same for other aircraft. The difference is that electrics are used to start the 787 engines as opposed to bleed air for other types.
strfyr51 wrote:Starlionblue wrote:Avatar2go wrote:The 787 is much closer to a more-electric aircraft than most other models. This means that rather than distributing power in the form of bleed air or hydraulics, it distributes electricity from the much more powerful engine generators, to numerous electric devices running throughout the aircraft.
This is more efficient from a weight and performance perspective, but it also means more motors and other stuff operating throughout the flight. Also somewhat more reliance on the APU. Any of those things could produce some vibration, it you are sitting close to them.
Small correction. The 787 has no bleed air system, but it does have hydraulic systems for flight controls and landing gear.
I don't know if the architecture makes it more reliant on the APU than other aircraft of the same era (e.g. A350). Electric is normally generated by the engines either way. The APU is used for engine start but that's the same for other aircraft. The difference is that electrics are used to start the 787 engines as opposed to bleed air for other types.
If I remember correctly from training. the 787 APU can be run for the entire trip in flight if one of the other generators has failed. I 've never seen the -10 in person so what you felt I cannot speak to though it probably has some merit.
trex8 wrote:I was on a UA 787-10 recently ORD-LAX sitting 47J. There was a very pronounced coarse vibration I could feel in my feet the entire trip.
chimborazo wrote:Took a BA 787-10 flight from SEA to LHR some months back and was in 13A which is towards the front of the wing. As we got into cruise I noticed a really uncomfortable vibration cycle, similar to what I often feel on ships/ferries as best I can describe it. It was over about 8s or so as I remember, it would slowly build and then dissipate. I sucked it up for a bit trying to ignore it but it was quite intense. Hoped it would subside as we stepped up a cruise level - can’t remember if we didn’t change level or changing level didn’t change it but was very tired and had had enough at this point. Fortunately the flight wasn’t full so I went and slept in 16A where it wasn’t so noticeable. Told cabin crew lead and he sat down for a minute and said it was very noticeable and would report it. Can best be described as a throbbing cycle from the engine, which row 13 is directly opposite.
I would actively avoid sitting in this area in future, it was really uncomfortable.
Starlionblue wrote:
It can be run the entire trip.
But if we want to get nitpicky, so can the APU on other aircraft.
chimborazo wrote:Took a BA 787-10 flight from SEA to LHR some months back and was in 13A which is towards the front of the wing. As we got into cruise I noticed a really uncomfortable vibration cycle, similar to what I often feel on ships/ferries as best I can describe it. It was over about 8s or so as I remember, it would slowly build and then dissipate. I sucked it up for a bit trying to ignore it but it was quite intense. Hoped it would subside as we stepped up a cruise level - can’t remember if we didn’t change level or changing level didn’t change it but was very tired and had had enough at this point. Fortunately the flight wasn’t full so I went and slept in 16A where it wasn’t so noticeable. Told cabin crew lead and he sat down for a minute and said it was very noticeable and would report it. Can best be described as a throbbing cycle from the engine, which row 13 is directly opposite.
I would actively avoid sitting in this area in future, it was really uncomfortable.
rjsampson wrote:Starlionblue wrote:
It can be run the entire trip.
But if we want to get nitpicky, so can the APU on other aircraft.
Do any airliners/bizjets that are still altitude restricted?
Starlionblue wrote:rjsampson wrote:Starlionblue wrote:
It can be run the entire trip.
But if we want to get nitpicky, so can the APU on other aircraft.
Do any airliners/bizjets that are still altitude restricted?
Probably.
Also, you have to more closely define "altitude restricted". For example, on the A330, you can run the APU the whole flight and it will provide electrical power. However, it won't provide bleed air above 25000 feet.
reidar76 wrote:There have been some reports of vibration in 787-10, also prompting emergency landing. For example a United 787-10 returned to AMS due to vibrations: https://www.aeroinside.com/14714/united ... vibrations
All 787-10 have been manufactured at CHS where quality issues in 787 assembly occurred. Could the vibrations possible be related to the shimming requirements were not met during the assembly of certain structural joints. It is well known this can result in reduced fatigue thresholds and cracking of some structural joints, but could it also mean vibrations?
I think there is more to the 787 saga. All those flying 787 need to be checked in the same manner as all new delivered 787, especially the 787-10.
trex8 wrote:I was on a UA 787-10 recently ORD-LAX sitting 47J. There was a very pronounced coarse vibration I could feel in my feet the entire trip. I've probably had maybe a dozen+ flights in UA 788/9 and two AA 788s and usually sit in Y somewhere and never felt anything as strong as this in my feet. These prevous 787 flights have been mostly transatlantic flights so I had ample opportunity to notice such things. I was on an A320, 739 and a 772 and a CRJ200 the rest of my recent trip this time and that 78X was vibrating my feet more than any of the other planes except the CR which only did so at certain times of the flight. Is that peculiar to the -10? All planes have some vibration you can feel in your feet, leaning on the side wall etc, sometimes its seems stronger depending on engine and I think flap settings/gear down etc but strong vibrations don't last too long. This one was the whole 4 hours continuously!! I didnt pay attention taxiing out but it was there taxiing in so its probably not related to actual flying conditions??? And this was much stronger than anything I can remember . Was this something specific to my location in the cabin or to the -10?? Or maybe the frequency made its amplitude seem higher??? Was I sitting in a simple harmonic motion anti node?? What causes it??
trex8 wrote:Thanks Caltech. So maybe the 787 equivalent of the A320 dog bark on continuous!!