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seat1a
Topic Author
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:35 am

Came across the photo below and noticed the brake and/or rudder pedals. Are both of them brakes or rudder pedals, or are the outer pedals different than the two inner pedals?

Can someone help me with this? Thank you!

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Bombard ... /7050591/L
 
Eikie
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:49 am

They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.
 
seat1a
Topic Author
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:54 am

Eikie wrote:
They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.


Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!
 
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PatrickZ80
Posts: 5204
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:56 am

The cockpit has two seats which each got their own set of panels, one left and one right. Both sets of panels are both brakes and rudder panels.

The rudder can be steered by pushing the left or right panel, according to in which direction you want to steer the rudder. If you press the left panel, the right panel comes forward. By pressing the right panel the left panel comes forward.

But instead of pressing it you can also stand on the panels (flipping them over), that's for the brakes. The right panel brakes on the right wheel, the left panel brakes on the left wheel.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21334
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:58 am

seat1a wrote:
Eikie wrote:
They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.


Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image
 
N1120A
Posts: 27575
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:33 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Eikie wrote:
They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.


Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Slight correction about a free castering nosewheel - you use differential braking to steer at lower speeds and in tighter spaces, but at RPMs where the rudder is effective (about 1000+, or the traditional "brisk walk")), you just use the rudder and save the brakes.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 10287
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:19 pm

And, my Aeronca Champ had a steerable tailwheel, but brakes were used on a ramp.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9430
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:54 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Eikie wrote:
They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.


Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image




Well described and agree with all that


Still, there’s a vocal minority of pilots who believe in having their feet ‘up’ on the rudder pedals (heels off the floor) during takeoff, they rationalize this with the belief they can start braking earlier in the event of an RTO


Regardless of the risk of inadvertently applying brakes as the aircraft is accelerating
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21334
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:47 pm

Max Q wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image




Well described and agree with all that


Still, there’s a vocal minority of pilots who believe in having their feet ‘up’ on the rudder pedals (heels off the floor) during takeoff, they rationalize this with the belief they can start braking earlier in the event of an RTO


Regardless of the risk of inadvertently applying brakes as the aircraft is accelerating


:(

I'd really like to see them react faster than the autobrake. ;)

And even if there's no autobrake, this seems like a good way to embarrass yourself. Minor birdstrike which is no cause for an RTO and you might reject before thinking it through. Please report to the chief pilot's office for tea and biscuits. Without the biscuits. Or the tea.



N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Slight correction about a free castering nosewheel - you use differential braking to steer at lower speeds and in tighter spaces, but at RPMs where the rudder is effective (about 1000+, or the traditional "brisk walk")), you just use the rudder and save the brakes.


Thanks for clarifying that. I've flown all of three times in aircraft without nosewheel steering so not really familiar territory for me. :)

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, my Aeronca Champ had a steerable tailwheel, but brakes were used on a ramp.


Forgot about steerable tailwheels. Thank you!

How big is the steering range on that?
 
seat1a
Topic Author
Posts: 960
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:22 am

Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Eikie wrote:
They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.


Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Thank you for the generous response. The center of the bottom of a pilot's foot is the pivot point on the pedals. Do I have that right? Is it fairly comfortable and easy to get used to position?

Also - during taxi, I often see the rear rudder on the tail fin move back-and-forth on other planes taxing. Is that done with pedals or the yoke? Thanks!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 10287
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:29 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image




Well described and agree with all that


Still, there’s a vocal minority of pilots who believe in having their feet ‘up’ on the rudder pedals (heels off the floor) during takeoff, they rationalize this with the belief they can start braking earlier in the event of an RTO


Regardless of the risk of inadvertently applying brakes as the aircraft is accelerating


:(

I'd really like to see them react faster than the autobrake. ;)

And even if there's no autobrake, this seems like a good way to embarrass yourself. Minor birdstrike which is no cause for an RTO and you might reject before thinking it through. Please report to the chief pilot's office for tea and biscuits. Without the biscuits. Or the tea.



N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Slight correction about a free castering nosewheel - you use differential braking to steer at lower speeds and in tighter spaces, but at RPMs where the rudder is effective (about 1000+, or the traditional "brisk walk")), you just use the rudder and save the brakes.


Thanks for clarifying that. I've flown all of three times in aircraft without nosewheel steering so not really familiar territory for me. :)

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, my Aeronca Champ had a steerable tailwheel, but brakes were used on a ramp.


Forgot about steerable tailwheels. Thank you!

How big is the steering range on that?


Wasn’t written anywhere, but about 20-30 degrees, the it went castering.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 10287
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:31 am

seat1a wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Thank you for the generous response. The center of the bottom of a pilot's foot is the pivot point on the pedals. Do I have that right? Is it fairly comfortable and easy to get used to position?

Also - during taxi, I often see the rear rudder on the tail fin move back-and-forth on other planes taxing. Is that done with pedals or the yoke? Thanks!


The bottom of the pedals is axis of brake application. There’s only a rear rudder and it’s is following the pilot’s pedal inputs. Tiller steering is independent, but using the pedal steering moves the rudder.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21334
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:36 am

seat1a wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Thank you for the generous response. The center of the bottom of a pilot's foot is the pivot point on the pedals. Do I have that right? Is it fairly comfortable and easy to get used to position?

Also - during taxi, I often see the rear rudder on the tail fin move back-and-forth on other planes taxing. Is that done with pedals or the yoke? Thanks!


The braking pivot point is towards the bottom of the pedals, not the middle. The whole thing is quite easy to get used to. Within half an hour or so in your first light aircraft it becomes second nature to steer and brake with your feet. It was actually harder to get used to taxiing the big iron. Turning smoothly while taxiing in a big jet is a learned skill and you'll definitely be wagging the tail back and forth in the beginning as you overcorrect. The tiller is quite sensitive and has a non-linear response, and a 60+ metre aircraft doesn't respond like a car. Even a small inadvertent overcorrection on the tiller can be enough to make the cabin crew have to hold on to something way in the back.

The rudder is actuated by the rudder pedals only*. So the rudder will move when you steer with the pedals while taxiing. Deflecting the tiller does not move the rudder. The yoke or stick does not control the rudder. Moving those side to side controls the ailerons and, if you deflect far enough, the spoilers.**

You'll see back-and-forth movement of the rudder and other controls during the taxi as the pilots do the flight control check.


* The flight control system on more complex aircraft also actuates the rudder automatically to coordinate turns, hence why we fly with our feet off the pedals. Some aircraft also automatically feed in rudder if you lose an engine.

** Caveat: On FBW aircraft there isn't really a direct relationship between control deflection and surface deflection. On a light aircraft, the yoke or stick is mechanically connected to the control surrfaces. On a FBW aircraft, control inputs are interpreted by the flight control computers. If, say, you command a right roll by deflecting the stick to the right, the aircraft will deflect surfaces as needed depending on speed, angle of attack, thrust, configuration and other factors to give you the desired outcome.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9430
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:15 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image




Well described and agree with all that


Still, there’s a vocal minority of pilots who believe in having their feet ‘up’ on the rudder pedals (heels off the floor) during takeoff, they rationalize this with the belief they can start braking earlier in the event of an RTO


Regardless of the risk of inadvertently applying brakes as the aircraft is accelerating


:(

I'd really like to see them react faster than the autobrake. ;)

And even if there's no autobrake, this seems like a good way to embarrass yourself. Minor birdstrike which is no cause for an RTO and you might reject before thinking it through. Please report to the chief pilot's office for tea and biscuits. Without the biscuits. Or the tea.



N1120A wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)

On the take-off roll, in the air (with the autopilot off), and on landing, you'd keep your feet "down" with your heels on the floor, so that you can push to steer, but you can't brake. On the landing roll, you'd move your feet "up" once you want to start braking and take out the autobrake if you have one. (In a large jet, you don't use the rudder pedals in the air except on landing or with an engine out, as the rudder is automatically handled by flight control system.)

The PM would normally keep his feet "down" at all times, except when coming up to the bay, when he would "guard" the brakes in case of incapacitation or malfunction.

Larger aircraft also have a tiller, sometimes only on the left side, but typically on both in modern designs, which is used for bigger nosewheel deflections. IIRC, the max steering deflection with the pedals on the A330 is 7 degrees each side, while max with the tiller is 72 degrees each side. So you'd use the tiller for taxi turns, and the pedals for take-off, landing, and staying straight on a taxiway.

Some smaller aircraft have no nosewheel steering at all, and are steered by using differential brake pressure. The nosewheel is castoring (free rotating) like a shopping trolley wheel. Tailwheel aircraft have no steering either, and also use differential brake pressure.

This image of an Airbus cockpit might clarify the layout.

Image


Slight correction about a free castering nosewheel - you use differential braking to steer at lower speeds and in tighter spaces, but at RPMs where the rudder is effective (about 1000+, or the traditional "brisk walk")), you just use the rudder and save the brakes.


Thanks for clarifying that. I've flown all of three times in aircraft without nosewheel steering so not really familiar territory for me. :)

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
And, my Aeronca Champ had a steerable tailwheel, but brakes were used on a ramp.


Forgot about steerable tailwheels. Thank you!

How big is the steering range on that?





Correct, you’re not going to manually do better than the speed of RTO Autobrake application


The proponents of the ‘feet up on the pedals’ during take off will say they are better positioned for brake application at low speeds (below 80 knots) where AB will not trigger, especially in their ability to keep straight with an engine failure in this regime



However this is not an issue as long as you reduce power to idle immediately, this along with initial rudder input will keep you on the runway


At my airline the policy was always ‘heels on the floor’ for take off but there’s a few who adamantly disagree
 
Flow2706
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:42 am

Max Q wrote:
The proponents of the ‘feet up on the pedals’ during take off will say they are better positioned for brake application at low speeds (below 80 knots) where AB will not trigger, especially in their ability to keep straight with an engine failure in this regime



However this is not an issue as long as you reduce power to idle immediately, this along with initial rudder input will keep you on the runway


At my airline the policy was always ‘heels on the floor’ for take off but there’s a few who adamantly disagree

In my airline CM2 is to have heels on the floor during takeoff, CM1 is "allowed" to have foot up or heels on the floor. Personally, I agree that heels on the floor is safer. In most airlines there is a small percentage of "brake applied during takeoff" events in the FDM system, caused by people not keeping their heels on the floor and inadvertently using brakes when applying rudder (IIRC, there was even an accident a couple of years ago that was partially caused by brake application during takeoff on an old Yak42...). Anyway, I just had a sim check a few days ago and the instructor gave us an engine failure at around 70kts. Took me a few seconds to realize what was happening and to apply manual brakes, but at these low speeds stopping performance is not critical, directional control is way more important.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:50 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
If you press the left panel, the right panel comes forward. By pressing the right panel the left panel comes forward.

But instead of pressing it you can also stand on the panels (flipping them over), that's for the brakes.


Correction, if you press the left pedal, the right pedal moves aft, towards you. Pressing the right pedal the left pedal moves aft, towards you.

Brakes are applied by pushing with your toes, on the top part of the pedals. No flipping them over.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:05 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
The braking pivot point is towards the bottom of the pedals, not the middle. The whole thing is quite easy to get used to. Within half an hour or so in your first light aircraft it becomes second nature to steer and brake with your feet.

Just wondering if you ever get confused switching between cockpit and a car. I heard a horror story of a steering wheel ripped out of console when a pilot tried to avoid a crash, but that's a different story.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 10287
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:29 pm

No, 52 years on, never confused the two
 
889091
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:56 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:10 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:
Eikie wrote:
They are both rudder and brake pedals. To brake you push the tops away from you and to use the rudder you push the entire pedal.

Fyi there is one pedal on each side of the steering column.


Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)



As there are no cables and pulleys attached to the pedals on the AB, is there a similar feature like the sidestick priority button for the rudder pedals? What happens on the AB if one pilot inputs full right rudder and the other pilot commands full left rudder? In a Boeing, I would assume the pilot with the stronger foot will win. In an AB, both potentiometers connected to the pedals will measure full scale deflection. Would they just cancel each other out, and the rudder remains centred?
 
ReverseFlow
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:02 am

889091 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)



As there are no cables and pulleys attached to the pedals on the AB, is there a similar feature like the sidestick priority button for the rudder pedals? What happens on the AB if one pilot inputs full right rudder and the other pilot commands full left rudder? In a Boeing, I would assume the pilot with the stronger foot will win. In an AB, both potentiometers connected to the pedals will measure full scale deflection. Would they just cancel each other out, and the rudder remains centred?
To show what Starlionblue said, here is a schematic from the A320.

https://forums.flightsimlabs.com/upload ... 370577.png

The newer Airbus aircraft don't have the wires anymore and the rudder is also done electrically.

It seems the XLR will also have an 'E-rudder'

https://www.flightglobal.com/air-transp ... 03.article
 
flybaurlax
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:34 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:12 pm

Here's an event that highlights foot position does matter on the rudder/brake pedals. In 2015 there was an incident where the brakes were seized on the left main gear upon landing on a 737-900ER. The wheels and brakes were sent to Honeywell for investigation of the failure, and the NTSB was involved. There was nothing mechanically wrong with the brakes and wheels, so a failure was ruled out. The DFDR was read and evaluated, and it revealed that the FO rode the left brake on taxi out in LAS prior to takeoff. Since the brake was slightly applied for a long period of time, it heated up and seized the wheel after gear retraction. I bring this up, just to highlight that it is important where the feet are placed on the pedals, at least for 737s ;).

http://avherald.com/h?article=48676045&opt=256.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21334
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:42 am

889091 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
seat1a wrote:

Thank you. So there's a little art to the maneuvering of the foot to push the top for braking action, and full on for the rudder.

Check (for pedal on each side). I don't think I worded that correctly, was thinking there was an inner/outer pedal, but I get it now! Thank you!!


There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)



As there are no cables and pulleys attached to the pedals on the AB, is there a similar feature like the sidestick priority button for the rudder pedals? What happens on the AB if one pilot inputs full right rudder and the other pilot commands full left rudder? In a Boeing, I would assume the pilot with the stronger foot will win. In an AB, both potentiometers connected to the pedals will measure full scale deflection. Would they just cancel each other out, and the rudder remains centred?


There are no cables and pulleys going to the rudder actuators, but the two sets of pedals are still mechanically connected just like on Boeing. So if one set moves, so does the other.

Stronger foot wins. :)
 
kalvado
Posts: 3822
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:58 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
889091 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

There's a little art, yes, but it isn't super difficult. The PF will typically have his feet "up" on the rudder pedals for taxi. You can then pivot your foot forward to brake (pressing the top of the pedal to pivot it) and push with your heels to steer. The pedals are interconnected, so when you push on one pedal to steer, the other pedal will move towards you, and vice-versa. (The other pilot's pedals move in sync.)



As there are no cables and pulleys attached to the pedals on the AB, is there a similar feature like the sidestick priority button for the rudder pedals? What happens on the AB if one pilot inputs full right rudder and the other pilot commands full left rudder? In a Boeing, I would assume the pilot with the stronger foot will win. In an AB, both potentiometers connected to the pedals will measure full scale deflection. Would they just cancel each other out, and the rudder remains centred?


There are no cables and pulleys going to the rudder actuators, but the two sets of pedals are still mechanically connected just like on Boeing. So if one set moves, so does the other.

Stronger foot wins. :)

And since rudder and trim wheel were the last stage of fallback in case of FBW failure on earlier airbuses... Does that mean FBW is now recognized as reliable enough to have no mechanical fallback option?
 
ReverseFlow
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:40 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:01 pm

kalvado wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
889091 wrote:

As there are no cables and pulleys attached to the pedals on the AB, is there a similar feature like the sidestick priority button for the rudder pedals? What happens on the AB if one pilot inputs full right rudder and the other pilot commands full left rudder? In a Boeing, I would assume the pilot with the stronger foot will win. In an AB, both potentiometers connected to the pedals will measure full scale deflection. Would they just cancel each other out, and the rudder remains centred?


There are no cables and pulleys going to the rudder actuators, but the two sets of pedals are still mechanically connected just like on Boeing. So if one set moves, so does the other.

Stronger foot wins. :)

And since rudder and trim wheel were the last stage of fallback in case of FBW failure on earlier airbuses... Does that mean FBW is now recognized as reliable enough to have no mechanical fallback option?
Well the A380 and A350 didn't have any mechanical controls from the get go, so I'd assume so!
 
basspaul
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:48 pm

ReverseFlow wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

There are no cables and pulleys going to the rudder actuators, but the two sets of pedals are still mechanically connected just like on Boeing. So if one set moves, so does the other.

Stronger foot wins. :)

And since rudder and trim wheel were the last stage of fallback in case of FBW failure on earlier airbuses... Does that mean FBW is now recognized as reliable enough to have no mechanical fallback option?
Well the A380 and A350 didn't have any mechanical controls from the get go, so I'd assume so!


None on the C-Series as well.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 21334
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Re: Question about brake and rudder pedals.

Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:53 pm

kalvado wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
889091 wrote:

As there are no cables and pulleys attached to the pedals on the AB, is there a similar feature like the sidestick priority button for the rudder pedals? What happens on the AB if one pilot inputs full right rudder and the other pilot commands full left rudder? In a Boeing, I would assume the pilot with the stronger foot will win. In an AB, both potentiometers connected to the pedals will measure full scale deflection. Would they just cancel each other out, and the rudder remains centred?


There are no cables and pulleys going to the rudder actuators, but the two sets of pedals are still mechanically connected just like on Boeing. So if one set moves, so does the other.

Stronger foot wins. :)

And since rudder and trim wheel were the last stage of fallback in case of FBW failure on earlier airbuses... Does that mean FBW is now recognized as reliable enough to have no mechanical fallback option?


FBW has been recognized as reliable enough for decades.

When the A330 Enhanced was introduced in the mid 2000s (I think), mechanical rudder control as a fallback was replaced by electrical rudder control with the Backup Control Module.

As mentioned, neither A330 nor A350 have any mechanical control at all.

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