Do pilots with a 757/767 rating really fly all of the variants?

Deltabravo1123 · Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:56 am

I'm curious how Delta and United split up the pilots who fly the 757 and 767. Of course they share a type rating, but looking at the payscales, there are different levels depending on the variant. So, I guess can a pilot go from a 757-200 one day to a 767-400 the next, just getting a different pay? Or are they split up into groups which limit them to specific types they can fly?

litz · Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:59 am

Swayne Martin just posted a YT video (he's a United pilot, posting with permission of his airline, for promotional purposes) in which he specifically addresses this, and notes that he does, yes, indeed fly both types (757 and 767), sometimes within the same day.

I'm not sure how the 767-400 fits into that with its glass cockpit, but any variant of 757-200/300 and 767-200/300 should be essentially interchangeable.

Kno · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:09 am

I would think you get to fly some of the most interesting missions with that type rating as well - especially as a North American pilot.

Such a wide variety of niche markets both types serve from airports like EGE to small markets in Europe and South America and every big airport in between.

Judge1310 · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:26 am

At United the 756 folks are qualified to fly all variants within the fleet. The only issue is when the landings qual lapses for the 764 -- then it's off to the training centre for landing requalification (LDRQ) on that type.

GalaxyFlyer · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:28 am

Depends on the contract. DL separates out the -400 from the other 757/767 fleet pilots.

Boeing757100 · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:52 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Depends on the contract. DL separates out the -400 from the other 757/767 fleet pilots.

Yeah, I think internal DL designation is 7ER for 757 and 767-300ER while they keep 764 for the -400ERs.

irelayer · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Depends on the contract. DL separates out the -400 from the other 757/767 fleet pilots.

Don't the 764 and 777 have a common type rating?

wjcandee · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:56 am

irelayer wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Depends on the contract. DL separates out the -400 from the other 757/767 fleet pilots.

Don't the 764 and 777 have a common type rating?

No. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2000-08-21 ... g-from-FAA

Yikes! · Wed Dec 14, 2022 4:28 am

seven47 · Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:56 am

I fly the 757/767 for one of the 2 big package carriers in the US. It's not uncommon to land a 757 and walk over to a 767, preflight it and take off, or vice-versa. We have several subsets of aircraft, as well, such as 757 P&W, 757 Rolls Royce, 767 winglet and non-winglet, as well as a few different aircraft with various equipment differences. Overall, it's very manageable.

Starlionblue · Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:18 am

Pre-Covid, and imagine soon again, we could fly the A330-300, the A350-900, and the A350-1000, all in the same day. Didn't happen that often, but it did.

Moosefire · Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:00 pm

seven47 wrote:
I fly the 757/767 for one of the 2 big package carriers in the US. It's not uncommon to land a 757 and walk over to a 767, preflight it and take off, or vice-versa. We have several subsets of aircraft, as well, such as 757 P&W, 757 Rolls Royce, 767 winglet and non-winglet, as well as a few different aircraft with various equipment differences. Overall, it's very manageable.

And im over on the other team flying only the 767… I might have a 75 type rating listed on my certificate but haven’t flown it once.

N1120A · Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:25 pm

United pilots do all the time. The only reason Delta pilots don't is for contract reasons.

Acey · Wed Dec 14, 2022 4:58 pm

Another UA pilot YouTuber recently released a video in which he stated they have to do a quick iPad course prior to flying the 764 if they haven't flown it in the past 90 days.

Aside from that, looks like they can hop in and out of all of them as required.

AAPilot48Heavy · Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:56 pm

Acey wrote:
Another UA pilot YouTuber recently released a video in which he stated they have to do a quick iPad course prior to flying the 764 if they haven't flown it in the past 90 days.

Aside from that, looks like they can hop in and out of all of them as required.

‘My Layover Life’

8-)

bluecrew · Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:45 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Depends on the contract. DL separates out the -400 from the other 757/767 fleet pilots.

Yeah, I think internal DL designation is 7ER for 757 and 767-300ER while they keep 764 for the -400ERs.

IIRC from a buddy at Delta they call it the 765, which just feels wrong.

GalaxyFlyer · Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:17 am

It’s contract language

ArcticFlyer · Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:01 am

I knew a 75/6 guy at CO (back in the day) who, by choice, flew the 757 almost exclusively. They were qualified on both but the schedules were different enough that there wasn't a lot of crossover especially if you had some seniority to work with. He only touched the 767 when there was an unscheduled aircraft swap.

23463245613 · Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:55 pm

bluecrew wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Depends on the contract. DL separates out the -400 from the other 757/767 fleet pilots.

Yeah, I think internal DL designation is 7ER for 757 and 767-300ER while they keep 764 for the -400ERs.

IIRC from a buddy at Delta they call it the 765, which just feels wrong.

764 was the domestic category, 765 was international. When they merged it, 765 was the surviving name. So I’ve been told.

bluecrew · Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:07 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
bluecrew wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
Yeah, I think internal DL designation is 7ER for 757 and 767-300ER while they keep 764 for the -400ERs.

IIRC from a buddy at Delta they call it the 765, which just feels wrong.

764 was the domestic category, 765 was international. When they merged it, 765 was the surviving name. So I’ve been told.

That would make a lot of sense, yeah.

INFINITI329 · Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:43 am

Are the memory items between the 757 & 767 generally the same?

seven47 · Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:59 pm

The memory items are basically identical. But, naturally, there are differences in the QRHs and non-normal checklists since there are significant systems differences.

BoeingGuy · Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:29 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Are the memory items between the 757 & 767 generally the same?

Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

INFINITI329 · Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:51 pm

seven47 wrote:
The memory items are basically identical. But, naturally, there are differences in the QRHs and non-normal checklists since there are significant systems differences.

BoeingGuy wrote:
Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

Both make sense

Starlionblue · Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:50 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Are the memory items between the 757 & 767 generally the same?

Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

USAirKid · Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:51 am

Starlionblue wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Are the memory items between the 757 & 767 generally the same?

Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

N1120A · Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:56 am

USAirKid wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

A pilot can be rated and current on all sorts of airplanes all the time - corporate pilots do it frequently. Whether said currency is maintained through a different make and model is based on how the type rating works.

BoeingGuy · Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:28 am

N1120A wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

A pilot can be rated and current on all sorts of airplanes all the time - corporate pilots do it frequently. Whether said currency is maintained through a different make and model is based on how the type rating works.

Most Boeing pilots are rated and current on some or all Boeing models. For example, the 737 Chief Pilot might also fly the 787 and 777-9 regularly.

ArcticFlyer · Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:10 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

Not true at least historically, can't speak to current certification requirements. There are small differences in the memory items between the 737-100/200, 737CL and 737NG (and presumably the MAX as well) but all have a common type rating.

Starlionblue · Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:09 am

USAirKid wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

There's a technicality here. I fly the A330 and the A350. However, I am not rated on "both". In my jurisdiction, they are the same type rating, so there is only the one rating in my license.

I think that's how EASA does it as well.

TWA772LR · Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:50 am

Judge1310 wrote:
At United the 756 folks are qualified to fly all variants within the fleet. The only issue is when the landings qual lapses for the 764 -- then it's off to the training centre for landing requalification (LDRQ) on that type.

Very true. And during the full qual course, the students don't touch the 764 until after the check ride, and then they do the difference courses.

TWA772LR · Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:58 am

USAirKid wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Memory items have to be to same for a common type rating to my understanding.

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

I'm 99% sure the FAA doesn't let you fly both the 777 and 787 at the same time. But if you transition from one to the other, the training is condensed granted you meet some criteria but that's a low hurdle. I wonder how it would differ between the 777X and 787 vs. the 787 and regular 777. I'd go out on a limb and say the 777X is closer to a 787 overall than the old 777, the cockpits alone are extremely similar for the 777X/787.

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

ArcticFlyer · Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:44 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I'm 99% sure the FAA doesn't let you fly both the 777 and 787 at the same time.

The FAA's only say in what you fly is rating and currency. Under FAA rules the 777 and 787 are separate type ratings (unlike the 757 and 767, which are a single type rating) meaning a pilot wanting to be qualified in both would need to complete the full training program, checkride and any required OE in each type separately. If he wanted to maintain his qualification in both types he would need to maintain landing currency and whatever recurrent training/PC his company requires for each type separately, meaning twice as many trips to the sim. Oh boy!

This is uncommon in the U.S. (at least for Part 121 carriers) but not unheard of; according to APC Global Crossing is planning on dual-qualifying their pilots in the A320 and A330. Dual and multiple qualifications are more common for Part 135 and fractional operators as their training rules are different.

BoeingGuy · Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:16 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

I'm 99% sure the FAA doesn't let you fly both the 777 and 787 at the same time. But if you transition from one to the other, the training is condensed granted you meet some criteria but that's a low hurdle. I wonder how it would differ between the 777X and 787 vs. the 787 and regular 777. I'd go out on a limb and say the 777X is closer to a 787 overall than the old 777, the cockpits alone are extremely similar for the 777X/787.

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

The Flight Decks on the 787 and 777X are almost identical. Some upgrades are being made to the 787, such as touch screen displays, to bring it up to the 777X design.

Most of the 777X Avionics and Flight Controls systems use the virtually same architecture and systems as the 787, not legacy 777. The 777X Autoflight, Primary Flight Controls, Air Data, Surveillance and other systems are basically the same as the 787, not legacy 777.

So yes, the 777X is much closer to the 787 in terms of Flight Deck and many systems.

trex8 · Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:31 pm

TWA772LR wrote:

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

https://twitter.com/STDirectLaw/status/ ... 8826731520

TWA772LR · Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:27 am

trex8 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

https://twitter.com/STDirectLaw/status/ ... 8826731520

That's the one.

SEAorPWM · Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:56 am

TWA772LR wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

I don't think that's trye. I can only speak for the A330 and A350 but there are differences in the memory items. You can even have differences within type depending on equipment.

For example, when we got the A350 it had auto-TCAS, whilst the A330 did not. Different memory items. Auto-TCAS was gradually retrofitted to the A330, so depending on which tail you were flying, there were differences.

One big memory item difference now between the A330 and the A350 is automatic emergency descent on the A350.

That being said, the memory items are largely identical.

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

I'm 99% sure the FAA doesn't let you fly both the 777 and 787 at the same time. But if you transition from one to the other, the training is condensed granted you meet some criteria but that's a low hurdle. I wonder how it would differ between the 777X and 787 vs. the 787 and regular 777. I'd go out on a limb and say the 777X is closer to a 787 overall than the old 777, the cockpits alone are extremely similar for the 777X/787.

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

That's amazing work from the flight dynamics people, system architects, and coders at Airbus if they could make a 2010's wide body fly like a mid 80s narrowbody.

Starlionblue · Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:18 am

SEAorPWM wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

I recall reading the at EASA allows pilots to be rated and current on the A330 & A350 at the same time, whereas the FAA doesn’t allow it. I believe it’s the same with the 777 & 787

I'm 99% sure the FAA doesn't let you fly both the 777 and 787 at the same time. But if you transition from one to the other, the training is condensed granted you meet some criteria but that's a low hurdle. I wonder how it would differ between the 777X and 787 vs. the 787 and regular 777. I'd go out on a limb and say the 777X is closer to a 787 overall than the old 777, the cockpits alone are extremely similar for the 777X/787.

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

That's amazing work from the flight dynamics people, system architects, and coders at Airbus if they could make a 2010's wide body fly like a mid 80s narrowbody.

I fly the 90s widebody derived from the 80s narrowbody, as well as the 2010s widebody.

It is indeed amazing that the philosophy created for the A320 is still solidly in place to this day, and so effective. The A350 certainly has differences from the A330 (which is more ways than one is a large A320), but the foundational principles are firmly still there.

IMHO, before FBW this would not have been possible.

SEAorPWM · Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:38 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I'm 99% sure the FAA doesn't let you fly both the 777 and 787 at the same time. But if you transition from one to the other, the training is condensed granted you meet some criteria but that's a low hurdle. I wonder how it would differ between the 777X and 787 vs. the 787 and regular 777. I'd go out on a limb and say the 777X is closer to a 787 overall than the old 777, the cockpits alone are extremely similar for the 777X/787.

As for the Airbus, I think I saw a diagram somewhere that showed what training is involved when transitioning from one to the other. This was for the FBW Airbus planes except the A380. I know an Airbus pilot that got type rated for the A350. He said it flies just like the A320.

That's amazing work from the flight dynamics people, system architects, and coders at Airbus if they could make a 2010's wide body fly like a mid 80s narrowbody.

I fly the 90s widebody derived from the 80s narrowbody, as well as the 2010s widebody.

It is indeed amazing that the philosophy created for the A320 is still solidly in place to this day, and so effective. The A350 certainly has differences from the A330 (which is more ways than one is a large A320), but the foundational principles are firmly still there.

IMHO, before FBW this would not have been possible.

You're probably right about the FBW. I like to think of the 757/767 family as the first stepping stone in the whole concept, since it introduced the common EFIS flight deck concept and had FBW spoilers.

Starlionblue · Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:12 am

SEAorPWM wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
SEAorPWM wrote:

That's amazing work from the flight dynamics people, system architects, and coders at Airbus if they could make a 2010's wide body fly like a mid 80s narrowbody.

I fly the 90s widebody derived from the 80s narrowbody, as well as the 2010s widebody.

It is indeed amazing that the philosophy created for the A320 is still solidly in place to this day, and so effective. The A350 certainly has differences from the A330 (which is more ways than one is a large A320), but the foundational principles are firmly still there.

IMHO, before FBW this would not have been possible.

You're probably right about the FBW. I like to think of the 757/767 family as the first stepping stone in the whole concept, since it introduced the common EFIS flight deck concept and had FBW spoilers.

Agreed that EFIS is an essential component. Screens can show anything. The A320 and A330/A340 have identical screen configurations. The A380 and A350 are different. But the information on PFD and ND is practically the same. On the A330, the PFD and ND are separate screens. On the A350 they are on the same screen. But that's just the hardware running it. Interface wise it is transparent to the pilot.

EICAS/ECAM is another key component. Make fault handling work in the same way on all the types for which there will be Mixed Fleet Flying or a common rating. I can go back and forth from A330 to A350. There are minor differences in the interface, but ECAM works with the same background logic. In contrast, I was in the 777 sim once and found EICAS very confusing because it just "works different" and I had never seen it before.

If memory serves, the 757/767 were the first aircraft types specifically developed for this sort of commonality, with a common rating. All the development threads that led to these common rating for rather different aircraft seemed to come together in the 1980s.

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