Rolls-Royce Completes UltraFan Build

JohanTally · Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:30 pm

Rolls Royce has assembled the first Ultrafan and it is moving to the test facility. The other Ultrafan thread was locked so I'm posting here to avoid creating a new thread.

https://www.avweb.com/ownership/engines ... fan-build/

zeke · Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:08 pm

This is just start of a long road of testing

LaunchDetected · Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:24 am

Which "new" technology is the most likely to cause issues during testing?
- Composite fan ?
- Power Gearbox ?
- Lean burn combustor ?
- Advance3 core ?

BowlingShoeDC9 · Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:25 pm

Are the variable pitch blades still in this or did that get canned?

SteelChair · Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:56 pm

Its exciting to see them moving forward, but as previously mentioned, this is a first step in a very long road.

As far as where the greatest technical risk exists, who can say? My guess is that has yet to be identified.

Also, you have to assume that PW's lawyers are watching closely. They'd probably like nothing better than to file a lawsuit over IP/patent issues.

John80 · Thu Dec 22, 2022 6:01 pm

There is a nice album of pictures on the (publicly accessible) Rolls-Royce Flickr site below.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rolls-roy ... 304494352/

Chaostheory · Sun Dec 25, 2022 7:57 pm

Partial cutaway from 2019:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rolls-roy ... 486636881/

xl0hr · Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:52 am

RR has finished the Ultrafan demonstrator and is getting ready to test. https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2022/19-12-2022-rr-ultrafan-technology-demonstrator-build-complete-and-getting-ready-to-test.aspx

I have a couple of questions about its future that I thought might be fun and insightful to discuss here.

Best case scenario, when would it be ready to be mass produced? I seem to recall lightsaber citing 7 years?
Is the Ultrafan an engine without a plane? I'm not sure A is neoing the A350 soon. People here seem to assume it'll be on A only. Why? What about B? Could it go on the 787-10 plus a potential stretch? B778?
related to above: how scalable is it? what's the potential thrust class for Ultrafan to provide superior SFC in?
could it never enter service as timing was bad? (RR cash issues due to fanblades, Covid, ...)
could it thus end up as a proof of concept feeding into a new development in 10 years or so?

SteelChair · Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:35 pm

xl0hr wrote:
RR has finished the Ultrafan demonstrator and is getting ready to test. https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2022/19-12-2022-rr-ultrafan-technology-demonstrator-build-complete-and-getting-ready-to-test.aspx

I have a couple of questions about its future that I thought might be fun and insightful to discuss here.

Best case scenario, when would it be ready to be mass produced? I seem to recall lightsaber citing 7 years?
Is the Ultrafan an engine without a plane? I'm not sure A is neoing the A350 soon. People here seem to assume it'll be on A only. Why? What about B? Could it go on the 787-10 plus a potential stretch? B778?
related to above: how scalable is it? what's the potential thrust class for Ultrafan to provide superior SFC in?
could it never enter service as timing was bad? (RR cash issues due to fanblades, Covid, ...)
could it thus end up as a proof of concept feeding into a new development in 10 years or so?

Regarding number 2....GE has an exclusivity agreement woth Boeing for the 777x. RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A.

In the past, a new engine technology has been THE enabler of a new generation of airplanes. If it works, Ultrafan will find a home.

jeffrey0032j · Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:58 pm

SteelChair wrote:
xl0hr wrote:
RR has finished the Ultrafan demonstrator and is getting ready to test. https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2022/19-12-2022-rr-ultrafan-technology-demonstrator-build-complete-and-getting-ready-to-test.aspx

I have a couple of questions about its future that I thought might be fun and insightful to discuss here.

Best case scenario, when would it be ready to be mass produced? I seem to recall lightsaber citing 7 years?
Is the Ultrafan an engine without a plane? I'm not sure A is neoing the A350 soon. People here seem to assume it'll be on A only. Why? What about B? Could it go on the 787-10 plus a potential stretch? B778?
related to above: how scalable is it? what's the potential thrust class for Ultrafan to provide superior SFC in?
could it never enter service as timing was bad? (RR cash issues due to fanblades, Covid, ...)
could it thus end up as a proof of concept feeding into a new development in 10 years or so?

Regarding number 2....GE has an exclusivity agreement woth Boeing for the 777x. RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A.

In the past, a new engine technology has been THE enabler of a new generation of airplanes. If it works, Ultrafan will find a home.

You left out the market leader, the 787 has RR as an option and I think a reengine will come soon.

Also, don't forget that Boeing engineers have spent time (possibly even more than Airbus) on RR factory grounds assisting RR with the Trent 1000 fixes and have seen the Ultrafan up close.

And while Boeing says the technology does not exist, if RR can show that the Ultrafan is efficient enough, maybe we could see it on the next Boeing narrowbody/NMA. This is a sector that RR has been wanting to break through.

Boeing757100 · Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:46 pm

jeffrey0032j wrote:
And while Boeing says the technology does not exist, if RR can show that the Ultrafan is efficient enough, maybe we could see it on the next Boeing narrowbody/NMA. This is a sector that RR has been wanting to break through.

This is what I've been thinking too... The technology is scalable and can basically be used between 25,000-100,000 lbs thrust, so it's certainly possible that it can be used for that roughly 40,000 lbf sweetspot that is currently occupied by the 757, but we'll have to wait and see.

JohanTally · Thu Dec 29, 2022 5:36 pm

SteelChair wrote:
xl0hr wrote:
RR has finished the Ultrafan demonstrator and is getting ready to test. https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2022/19-12-2022-rr-ultrafan-technology-demonstrator-build-complete-and-getting-ready-to-test.aspx

I have a couple of questions about its future that I thought might be fun and insightful to discuss here.

Best case scenario, when would it be ready to be mass produced? I seem to recall lightsaber citing 7 years?
Is the Ultrafan an engine without a plane? I'm not sure A is neoing the A350 soon. People here seem to assume it'll be on A only. Why? What about B? Could it go on the 787-10 plus a potential stretch? B778?
related to above: how scalable is it? what's the potential thrust class for Ultrafan to provide superior SFC in?
could it never enter service as timing was bad? (RR cash issues due to fanblades, Covid, ...)
could it thus end up as a proof of concept feeding into a new development in 10 years or so?

Regarding number 2....GE has an exclusivity agreement woth Boeing for the 777x. RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A.

In the past, a new engine technology has been THE enabler of a new generation of airplanes. If it works, Ultrafan will find a home.

These exclusivity agreements typically have an expiration date which for the A359 Trent XWB-84 is in 2030. The current Ultrafan design would likely only work for a A35K or 777X but if they do scale down the Ultrafan it opens the door for other options.

rbavfan · Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:14 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Its exciting to see them moving forward, but as previously mentioned, this is a first step in a very long road.

As far as where the greatest technical risk exists, who can say? My guess is that has yet to be identified.

Also, you have to assume that PW's lawyers are watching closely. They'd probably like nothing better than to file a lawsuit over IP/patent issues.

PW was not the first to use a gearbox on a jet engine. ALF-502/507 series on 146/Avro RJ used them.

SteelChair · Thu Dec 29, 2022 9:48 pm

rbavfan wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Its exciting to see them moving forward, but as previously mentioned, this is a first step in a very long road.

As far as where the greatest technical risk exists, who can say? My guess is that has yet to be identified.

Also, you have to assume that PW's lawyers are watching closely. They'd probably like nothing better than to file a lawsuit over IP/patent issues.

PW was not the first to use a gearbox on a jet engine. ALF-502/507 series on 146/Avro RJ used them.

Well that's true. That engine was quite unreliable IIRC. Also, PW publicly stated (sorry no link) that they had obtained several patents. I'm sure that they'll defend those patents vigorously.

kalvado · Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:41 pm

SteelChair wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Its exciting to see them moving forward, but as previously mentioned, this is a first step in a very long road.

As far as where the greatest technical risk exists, who can say? My guess is that has yet to be identified.

Also, you have to assume that PW's lawyers are watching closely. They'd probably like nothing better than to file a lawsuit over IP/patent issues.

PW was not the first to use a gearbox on a jet engine. ALF-502/507 series on 146/Avro RJ used them.

Well that's true. That engine was quite unreliable IIRC. Also, PW publicly stated (sorry no link) that they had obtained several patents. I'm sure that they'll defend those patents vigorously.

RR also has lawyers, and their design is likely tweaked to minimize, if not avoid, IP issues.
PW cannot patent mere concept of geared engine. It has to be some smaller details, which may or may not be worked around.
It may be interesting to look at PW patents, but simple "Pratt Whitney gear" brings something like 4800 patents.
Two seemingly interesting from the first page:
https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2845161C/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8814502B2/en
Effectively exchanging HP and LP shafts in the middle of the engine... interesting idea....

xl0hr · Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:44 pm

So apparently scalable between 110 and 445 Kilonewton so it might be an engine for a SA? Boeing might be very interested... What an anet surprise.

How long would be EIS though? More design work, testing, getting ready to mass produce?

xl0hr · Thu Dec 29, 2022 11:50 pm

SteelChair wrote:
[...] RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A [...]

So why pay money for another engine to be available? RR has 100% already. Is the extensive margin (selling more A350 vs B787 or B777X) worth it?

SteelChair · Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:00 am

xl0hr wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
[...] RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A [...]

So why pay money for another engine to be available? RR has 100% already. Is the extensive margin (selling more A350 vs B787 or B777X) worth it?

Because customers want it?

JonesNL · Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:31 am

xl0hr wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
[...] RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A [...]

So why pay money for another engine to be available? RR has 100% already. Is the extensive margin (selling more A350 vs B787 or B777X) worth it?

Seeing the current market demand the A350 needs a kicker if the sales don’t pick up in the next 2 years. From the original news articles the Ultrafan was touted as almost a co-development with Airbus.
Also, both Airbus and RR have something to gain from Ultrafan/A350neo success, while for Boeing the 787neo will lead to the same status quo market share wise…

Added source: https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... ntegration

BoeingVista · Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:19 am

SteelChair wrote:
Its exciting to see them moving forward, but as previously mentioned, this is a first step in a very long road.

As far as where the greatest technical risk exists, who can say? My guess is that has yet to be identified.

Also, you have to assume that PW's lawyers are watching closely. They'd probably like nothing better than to file a lawsuit over IP/patent issues.

PW did not invent the GTF, nor planetary gearboxes, they were 40 years late with the first production GTF too so I doubt there is much their lawyers can do but watch.

CowAnon · Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:37 am

General Electric filed 34 legal challenges to Pratt and Whitney's patents. In about half of those cases, the challenges were successful in revoking some or all of the claims in the patent (if I'm skimming the legalese correctly).

https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/ptab/caselist?patent_owners=United+Technologies+Corporation&petitioners=General+Electric

accentra · Tue Jan 03, 2023 12:09 am

I have to say that I'm always astonished by the general misinformation around PW and geared turbofan tech. They did not invent it and weren't the first to offer it! See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycoming_ALF_502

I'm pretty sure RR will navigate around any patents that PW hold. At the end of the day, this is largely generic tech.

majano · Wed Jan 04, 2023 4:32 pm

zeke wrote:
This is just start of a long road of testing

This has to be true. A direct comparison is not always possible, but the PW GTF was first ground-tested in 2007 and certified in 2013. There were several precursors dating as far back as 1993.

Good that RR has progressed this initiative given the doubts expressed back in 2017 and 2018 when the Advance was first announced, but there could be at least six years from today before the engine is certified and a few further years before the aircraft under which wings it will hang enters revenue service.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_% ... ey_PW1000G

SteelChair · Mon Jan 09, 2023 4:27 pm

I did not assert that PW invented the geared turbofan.

I did not assert that PW was the first to offer a geared turbofan.

There is a history of contentious behaviour between RR and PW within the last 15 years over various issues, so I feel that my concern is valid.

https://airinsight.com/rolls-loses-pate ... t-whitney/

https://airinsight.com/what-if-rolls-ro ... r-history/

kalvado · Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:50 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I did not assert that PW invented the geared turbofan.

I did not assert that PW was the first to offer a geared turbofan.

There is a history of contentious behaviour between RR and PW within the last 15 years over various issues, so I feel that my concern is valid.

https://airinsight.com/rolls-loses-pate ... t-whitney/

https://airinsight.com/what-if-rolls-ro ... r-history/

Patent litigation is a given in any serious industry. If there would be no litigation involved, that would mean PW lawyers are not doing their job.
I don't quite believe there would be show stoppers, but some green bills will change hands.

SteelChair · Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:58 pm

kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I did not assert that PW invented the geared turbofan.

I did not assert that PW was the first to offer a geared turbofan.

There is a history of contentious behaviour between RR and PW within the last 15 years over various issues, so I feel that my concern is valid.

https://airinsight.com/rolls-loses-pate ... t-whitney/

https://airinsight.com/what-if-rolls-ro ... r-history/

Patent litigation is a given in any serious industry. If there would be no litigation involved, that would mean PW lawyers are not doing their job.
I don't quite believe there would be show stoppers, but some green bills will change hands.

Agreed.

Pratt says that they spent over 1B USD developing this engine, and more than 20 years. Sorry I can't find a link right now. Any statement that the GTF is generic tech or just another planetary gear is wrong. I'm sorry I can't find a link of PW bragging about how much they put into this gear. They clearly think they are ahead, and geared engines coming after this one may have to prove that they developed the tech on their own. PW has literally "bet the company" on this engine and its gear, and they will defend it aggressively (mho). (Sorry, I know "bet the company" is an overused term).

I remain concerned about reliability since PW has not shown an ability to produce an engine that can come anywhere near CFM56 levels of reliability. I believe that RR can produce a reliable engine, the RB211 was eventually very, very reliable. And I believe that follow on engines, other than a design defect that was noted after the engines were in service, have been very reliable also.

Okcflyer · Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:26 pm

Designing a planetary gear system that is both very high efficiency AND lightweight is non-trivial. Very challenging.

The niche players with experience (research, experience, etc) of such systems have been focused on industrial use cases which prioritize durability and efficiency -- not weight. Focusing on weight throw a huge wrench into the mix.

Aviation is extraordinarily challenging due to the need to optimize weight vs traditional design constraints.

JerseyFlyer · Wed Feb 15, 2023 11:30 am

RR and Boeing have demonstrated fuel burn and weight savings from a 6-year "short inlet" nacelle project, using a T1000, anticipated for application on the Ultrafan:

“Clearly, we expect short-inlet technology to be required for the UltraFan,” Owen says, referring to the company’s next-generation geared turbofan—the demonstrator for which is poised to begin ground tests. “That’s the next stage of the journey from our perspective. We would anticipate short-inlet technology being required for an engine the size of UltraFan purely because the fan diameters are so great.”

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/airc ... g-fan-drag

CowAnon · Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:02 pm

Kinda interesting that it's Boeing instead of Airbus that's working with RR on the short-inlet experiment. Although I don't understand why the airframe/engine OEMs haven't tried to implement this feature earlier.

brindabella · Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:31 am

CowAnon wrote:
Kinda interesting that it's Boeing instead of Airbus that's working with RR on the short-inlet experiment. Although I don't understand why the airframe/engine OEMs haven't tried to implement this feature earlier.

The news that Boeing engineers are working with RR on this and the T1000 is unexpected - at least to me, anyway.

Anybody have any insight?

cheers

enzo011 · Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:34 am

brindabella wrote:
CowAnon wrote:
Kinda interesting that it's Boeing instead of Airbus that's working with RR on the short-inlet experiment. Although I don't understand why the airframe/engine OEMs haven't tried to implement this feature earlier.

The news that Boeing engineers are working with RR on this and the T1000 is unexpected - at least to me, anyway.

Anybody have any insight?

cheers

My guess is the engine they chose dictated who they worked with on this. Why they chose the T1000 instead of another engine (maturity, availability?) is another question but not strange I think once the T1000 was chosen that they would need to work with Boeing engineers on the experiment.

reidar76 · Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:00 pm

enzo011 wrote:
brindabella wrote:
CowAnon wrote:
Kinda interesting that it's Boeing instead of Airbus that's working with RR on the short-inlet experiment. Although I don't understand why the airframe/engine OEMs haven't tried to implement this feature earlier.

The news that Boeing engineers are working with RR on this and the T1000 is unexpected - at least to me, anyway.

Anybody have any insight?

cheers

My guess is the engine they chose dictated who they worked with on this. Why they chose the T1000 instead of another engine (maturity, availability?) is another question but not strange I think once the T1000 was chosen that they would need to work with Boeing engineers on the experiment.

The project is funded under a US government environmental research program. Boeing needs to partner with an engine OEM, and in this specific research area RR have the best experience and expertise. The T1000 is the only RR-engine on current Boeing aircraft, so that's why it has been chosen.

brindabella · Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:59 am

reidar76 wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
brindabella wrote:

The news that Boeing engineers are working with RR on this and the T1000 is unexpected - at least to me, anyway.

Anybody have any insight?

cheers

My guess is the engine they chose dictated who they worked with on this. Why they chose the T1000 instead of another engine (maturity, availability?) is another question but not strange I think once the T1000 was chosen that they would need to work with Boeing engineers on the experiment.

The project is funded under a US government environmental research program. Boeing needs to partner with an engine OEM, and in this specific research area RR have the best experience and expertise. The T1000 is the only RR-engine on current Boeing aircraft, so that's why it has been chosen.

Thanks to you all; I clearly have missed the bit about the project at hand.

:oops:

Which program is this?

cheers

reidar76 · Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:45 pm

brindabella wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
enzo011 wrote:

My guess is the engine they chose dictated who they worked with on this. Why they chose the T1000 instead of another engine (maturity, availability?) is another question but not strange I think once the T1000 was chosen that they would need to work with Boeing engineers on the experiment.

The project is funded under a US government environmental research program. Boeing needs to partner with an engine OEM, and in this specific research area RR have the best experience and expertise. The T1000 is the only RR-engine on current Boeing aircraft, so that's why it has been chosen.

Thanks to you all; I clearly have missed the bit about the project at hand.

Which program is this?

cheers

Continuous Lower Energy, Emissions and Noise (CLEEN)

slick1017 · Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:07 pm

SteelChair wrote:
kalvado wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
I did not assert that PW invented the geared turbofan.

I did not assert that PW was the first to offer a geared turbofan.

There is a history of contentious behaviour between RR and PW within the last 15 years over various issues, so I feel that my concern is valid.

https://airinsight.com/rolls-loses-pate ... t-whitney/

https://airinsight.com/what-if-rolls-ro ... r-history/

Patent litigation is a given in any serious industry. If there would be no litigation involved, that would mean PW lawyers are not doing their job.
I don't quite believe there would be show stoppers, but some green bills will change hands.

Agreed.

Pratt says that they spent over 1B USD developing this engine, and more than 20 years. Sorry I can't find a link right now. Any statement that the GTF is generic tech or just another planetary gear is wrong. I'm sorry I can't find a link of PW bragging about how much they put into this gear. They clearly think they are ahead, and geared engines coming after this one may have to prove that they developed the tech on their own. PW has literally "bet the company" on this engine and its gear, and they will defend it aggressively (mho). (Sorry, I know "bet the company" is an overused term).

I remain concerned about reliability since PW has not shown an ability to produce an engine that can come anywhere near CFM56 levels of reliability. I believe that RR can produce a reliable engine, the RB211 was eventually very, very reliable. And I believe that follow on engines, other than a design defect that was noted after the engines were in service, have been very reliable also.

With regards to PW engine reliability - I would like to point out that the IAE V2500 is considered to be a very reliable engine and Pratt is a major player in the JV. This article - https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2023-03-09/iae-engine-partnership-sees-v2500-business-continuing-decades - claims that the V2500 has a dispatch reliability rate of 99.97% which is pretty damn high if you ask me. Absolutely agree that PW have had many misses over the past few decades, but I think they are fundamentally capable of building a good engine. The GTF, of course, is going through a lot of problems right now, but despite that, the improvements and innovations have led to many thousands of orders and without the GTF, projects like the A321XLR wouldn't be as feasible.

Okcflyer · Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:09 am

slick1017 wrote:
and without the GTF, projects like the A321XLR wouldn't be as feasible.

What about the LEAP-1A makes the XLR not feasible?

CowAnon · Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:59 am

I can see why General Electric would be concerned about Pratt & Whitney's many patent claims, but I think Rolls Royce would be less worried. When RR bought Allison in the mid-90s, they inherited the AE 2100 turboprop, which has a gearbox that is claimed to work for 30,000+ hours between unscheduled engine removals. That gearbox is derived from the Allison's 578-DX propfan demonstrator in the 1980s, whose gearbox design was designed to operate for 30,000 hours plus and handle up to 25,000 horsepower. So RR already had the gearbox technology and just had to scale up.

enzo011 · Thu May 18, 2023 12:03 pm

This seems new, the UltraFan has been run for the first time and begun testing.

Rolls-Royce Begins UltraFan Tests Amid Restructuring And Cost Cuts

Rolls-Royce has run the UltraFan demonstrator for the first time, marking the start of an extensive test program for the world’s largest geared turbofan and—the engine-maker hopes—the birth of a new generation of more efficient propulsion systems.

The demonstrator was started quietly and without fanfare on April 24 in the company’s specially built Derby, England, Testbed 80 facility in the first run of an all-new-centerline big-fan engine at Rolls since the Trent XWB-84 in 2010. It occurred a little more than nine years after the company revealed plans to pursue a geared architecture for its next-generation product line.

So it seems like RR is placing quite a lot of their future on the UltraFan and will hope for its success to sustain the company in the future.

Since then, despite uncertainties in the widebody market and two years of delays caused by the financial fallout of the pandemic and the costly recovery from Trent 1000 reliability issues, the embattled company has continued to gamble on the UltraFan concept as the best bet for boosting the prospects of its future engines. Rolls’ determination to stick with the program also comes amid an extensive restructuring under recently appointed CEO Tufan Erginbilgic.

Erginbilgic describes the demonstrator as “a game changer.” “The technologies we are testing as part of this program have the capability to improve the engines of today as well as the engines of tomorrow,” he says “That is why this announcement is so important. We are witnessing history in the making—a step change in engine efficiency improvement.”

While no immediate application is in the offing, Rolls expects the scalable design—covering the 25,000-110,000- lb.-thrust range—will make it a low-fuel-burn contender for future single- and twin-aisle concepts as well as for potential reengining opportunities. The company also intends to use the UltraFan as a wellspring of technology for upgrading its current engines.

So let the A350neo and A322 speculation and MOM for Boeing start. :box:

JerseyFlyer · Thu May 18, 2023 12:22 pm

A bit of detail:

"UltraFan has been designed to be 25 percent more efficient than the first generation of Trent 700 engines or ten percent better than the Trent XWB, have forty percent lower NOx emissions, and produce 35 percent less noise. And it is ready to accept 100 percent SAF. At a later stage, the engine should be capable of running on hydrogen and include hybrid-electric elements"

https://airinsight.com/rolls-royce-ultr ... irst-test/

JonesNL · Thu May 18, 2023 12:27 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
A bit of detail:

"UltraFan has been designed to be 25 percent more efficient than the first generation of Trent 700 engines or ten percent better than the Trent XWB, have forty percent lower NOx emissions, and produce 35 percent less noise. And it is ready to accept 100 percent SAF. At a later stage, the engine should be capable of running on hydrogen and include hybrid-electric elements"

https://airinsight.com/rolls-royce-ultr ... irst-test/

10% better than last generation sounds more like a regular step change, not a revolution as described by RR…

rt23456p · Thu May 18, 2023 12:31 pm

SteelChair wrote:
xl0hr wrote:
RR has finished the Ultrafan demonstrator and is getting ready to test. https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2022/19-12-2022-rr-ultrafan-technology-demonstrator-build-complete-and-getting-ready-to-test.aspx

I have a couple of questions about its future that I thought might be fun and insightful to discuss here.

Best case scenario, when would it be ready to be mass produced? I seem to recall lightsaber citing 7 years?
Is the Ultrafan an engine without a plane? I'm not sure A is neoing the A350 soon. People here seem to assume it'll be on A only. Why? What about B? Could it go on the 787-10 plus a potential stretch? B778?
related to above: how scalable is it? what's the potential thrust class for Ultrafan to provide superior SFC in?
could it never enter service as timing was bad? (RR cash issues due to fanblades, Covid, ...)
could it thus end up as a proof of concept feeding into a new development in 10 years or so?

Regarding number 2....GE has an exclusivity agreement woth Boeing for the 777x. RR is the sole engine on the 350, not sure about exclusivity, but for right now the 350 can only have RR on it. That's why it appears that it will on be on A.

In the past, a new engine technology has been THE enabler of a new generation of airplanes. If it works, Ultrafan will find a home.

Well, seeing how Leaps and CFM56s got onto 737s, it might be a good incremental upgrade for 787 and a350s.

kalvado · Thu May 18, 2023 2:37 pm

JonesNL wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
A bit of detail:

"UltraFan has been designed to be 25 percent more efficient than the first generation of Trent 700 engines or ten percent better than the Trent XWB, have forty percent lower NOx emissions, and produce 35 percent less noise. And it is ready to accept 100 percent SAF. At a later stage, the engine should be capable of running on hydrogen and include hybrid-electric elements"

https://airinsight.com/rolls-royce-ultr ... irst-test/

10% better than last generation sounds more like a regular step change, not a revolution as described by RR…

Low hanging fruit are already picked. Wait until 0.5% becomes a great breakthrough.
Similar things happen to many technologies. It is either a totally new approach, or period on continuously diminishing returns - with new approach may may not be a deal breaker.

enzo011 · Thu May 18, 2023 2:39 pm

JonesNL wrote:
10% better than last generation sounds more like a regular step change, not a revolution as described by RR…

Well the GE9X is offering a 10% improvement on the GE90 and Lightsaber has posted about all the new features it has on the engine. That is 10% on an engine first run in 1993. The UltraFan will be 10% better than the TXWB that first run in 2010. Now sure the 10% would not be on the GE90 from 1993 but the GE90-115B from the early 2000's so it seems like the same improvement being offered by the GE9X in a similar timeframe. I guess it comes down to whether one considers that a step change as well.

majano · Thu May 18, 2023 3:41 pm

enzo011 wrote:
This seems new, the UltraFan has been run for the first time and begun testing.
Rolls’ determination to stick with the program also comes amid an extensive restructuring under recently appointed CEO Tufan Erginbilgic.

Erginbilgic describes the demonstrator as “a game changer.” “The technologies we are testing as part of this program have the capability to improve the engines of today as well as the engines of tomorrow,” he says “That is why this announcement is so important. We are witnessing history in the making—a step change in engine efficiency improvement

Under former CEO Martin Easter, I would not have associated phrases like "game changer" with RR. Times change and so should we...

JerseyFlyer · Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:22 am

Trent family will benefit from UltraFan technology by 2025

“We are already bringing some of the UltraFan technologies across, including a new disk alloy. We believe we got a world lead in disk allows. We spent eight years developing a new disk alloy that has got an incredible performance that we will introduce on the Trent engines to increase their time on wing. We intend to bring it to service in 2025,”

https://airinsight.com/trent-family-wil ... y-by-2025/

kalvado · Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:26 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Trent family will benefit from UltraFan technology by 2025

“We are already bringing some of the UltraFan technologies across, including a new disk alloy. We believe we got a world lead in disk allows. We spent eight years developing a new disk alloy that has got an incredible performance that we will introduce on the Trent engines to increase their time on wing. We intend to bring it to service in 2025,”

https://airinsight.com/trent-family-wil ... y-by-2025/

Is that alloy another variety of single crystal nickel, or something else?

Sokes · Sat Aug 12, 2023 10:14 am

Could the new engine make the A350-1000 the preferred model, similar to the A321Neo being so popular?

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