What’s the toughest/most challenging large commercial airport for pilots to land at?

Magnum9 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:09 am

I believe the old Hong Kong airport (Kai Tak) was notoriously known as one of if not *the* most challenging large commercial airport for pilots to land at and required specialized training. Since its closure is TGU now considered the most difficult ‘large’ commercial airport or are there others more challenging and of similar population size or bigger?

davidjohnson6 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:13 am

Do Vagar in the Faroes Islands because of the short runway in the middle of the North Atlantic or Chambery in France because of surrounding mountains count as large ? Maybe London-City because of its steep glideslope ? Or Funchal in Madeira because of the cross wind ? Innsbruck in Austria ? Gibraltar because of the complicated approach around Spanish airspace ?

GalaxyFlyer · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:22 am

Santos Dumont in Rio, ASE or EGE in Colorado.

NLINK · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:32 am

Delete please

N292UX · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:55 am

Paro, Bhutan. Surrounded by 18,000 foot mountains on both sides and less than 20 pilots are certified to fly there.

Lukla is obviously a hard one to land at but I wouldn't classify that as a "large" commercial airport

jrfspa320 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:23 am

ZQN is an interesting one

cyba · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:23 am

Magnum9 wrote:
is TGU now considered the most difficult ‘large’ commercial airport or are there others more challenging and of similar population size or bigger?

TGU is closed to all jet traffic since the opening of the new airport at Comayagua, XPL/ MHSC. So I don't think that counts any more.

santi319 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:30 am

DOM has a very interesting approach.

Also MEX and LHR because of traffic volume.

N1120A · Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:37 am

santi319 wrote:
DOM has a very interesting approach.

Also MEX and LHR because of traffic volume.

There are busier airports than MEX and LHR by volume. Setting up for a straight in, in a 3 degree glide, isn't exactly hard.

Magnum9 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:21 am

jrfspa320 wrote:
ZQN is an interesting one

Queenstown, yes! How did this one escape my mind. Was fortunate to spend NYE 2018 there. Such incredible views on approach to runway 23. I wonder if 23 is always used for arrivals or if they ever come in over the lake on runway 05?

jrfspa320 · Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:51 am

Magnum9 wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
ZQN is an interesting one

Queenstown, yes! How did this one escape my mind. Was fortunate to spend NYE 2018 there. Such incredible views on approach to runway 23. I wonder if 23 is always used for arrivals or if they ever come in over the lake on runway 05?

They do use both ends

TonyClifton · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:20 pm

santi319 wrote:
DOM has a very interesting approach.

Also MEX and LHR because of traffic volume.

Heathrow is easy. Hold until told otherwise, fly the CDA, and hang at 160 until 4 miles. People act as if it’s docking to the ISS.

CrewBunk · Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:34 pm

St. John’s Newfoundland.

The only place I’ve ever seen 40 knot winds when doing a CAT II approach.

N1120A · Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:55 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
St. John’s Newfoundland.

The only place I’ve ever seen 40 knot winds when doing a CAT II approach.

That is a lot more challenging than simply being in busy airspace where ATC is giving you the same vectors as always, or you're following a STAR to an IAF and getting a formality of an approach clearance.

Another tough one is Santorini. Reasonably short, narrow runway with a mountain just off the left during prevailing winds and plenty of swirling to go around. When the meltemi comes in, they get diversions because of the lower max crosswind most companies have on the narrower runway.

Magnum9 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:53 am

I think I’ve read that WLG (Wellington, NZ) is viewed as a challenging airport to land at at times due to the runway length and having ocean at both ends, as well as the challenging weather conditions at times coming off the Cook Strait.

teachpdx · Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:27 am

Magnum9 wrote:
I think I’ve read that WLG (Wellington, NZ) is viewed as a challenging airport to land at at times due to the runway length and having ocean at both ends, as well as the challenging weather conditions at times coming off the Cook Strait.

Pax perspective, my most turbulent takeoff and hardest landing were both at WLG. So it seems plausible…

77west · Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:05 am

teachpdx wrote:
Magnum9 wrote:
I think I’ve read that WLG (Wellington, NZ) is viewed as a challenging airport to land at at times due to the runway length and having ocean at both ends, as well as the challenging weather conditions at times coming off the Cook Strait.

Pax perspective, my most turbulent takeoff and hardest landing were both at WLG. So it seems plausible…

They do plant it on firmly due to the short runway, want to get brakes in as quick as possible. Same goes for ZQN. That said, I would think Innsbruck to be just as challenging as ZQN.

Max Q · Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:43 am

N292UX wrote:
Paro, Bhutan. Surrounded by 18,000 foot mountains on both sides and less than 20 pilots are certified to fly there.

Lukla is obviously a hard one to land at but I wouldn't classify that as a "large" commercial airport

Completely agree, Paro looks seriously challenging and I’m sure has very high weather minimums

Kai Tak was as tough as it gets

N1120A · Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:10 am

Max Q wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Paro, Bhutan. Surrounded by 18,000 foot mountains on both sides and less than 20 pilots are certified to fly there.

Lukla is obviously a hard one to land at but I wouldn't classify that as a "large" commercial airport

Completely agree, Paro looks seriously challenging and I’m sure has very high weather minimums

Kai Tak was as tough as it gets

There is a VOR on the field at Paro, but I don't know exactly want kind of approach they have. I'm sure whatever it is requires a long visual segment with high mins. It was a hell of a flight in and out when I went there in 2019.

T54A · Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:30 am

TonyClifton wrote:
santi319 wrote:
DOM has a very interesting approach.

Also MEX and LHR because of traffic volume.

Heathrow is easy. Hold until told otherwise, fly the CDA, and hang at 160 until 4 miles. People act as if it’s docking to the ISS.

Agree, easiest airport in the world. They even have “follow the greens” to simplify it even further.

Latachaudhary44 · Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:28 am

The real challenge of this airport is Princess Juliana International Airport, not the beach but the size of the runway, which is only around 2.2 km long; it's very short considering many of the large aircraft of landing generally require more than 2500m to ensure a safe landing.

IAHFLYR · Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:36 pm

Max Q wrote:
Completely agree, Paro looks seriously challenging and I’m sure has very high weather minimums

The videos of the approach is just stunning to watch, what amazing crews qualified to land there.

N1120A · Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:12 pm

Latachaudhary44 wrote:
The real challenge of this airport is Princess Juliana International Airport, not the beach but the size of the runway, which is only around 2.2 km long; it's very short considering many of the large aircraft of landing generally require more than 2500m to ensure a safe landing.

Landing isn't the issue. 2300m/7546' is plenty. The issue is departure performance while maneuvering away from the mountain and/or approach to the opposite direction runway for a larger aircraft.

If you want a short runway, take a look at SNA or BUR (landing only for transport category aircraft on 8).

ArcticFlyer · Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:03 am

MDW used to be quite interesting since, in addition to the short runways, a circle-to-land approach was required when landing the 22s (specifically the ILS 31C circle 22L). Now there is an RNAV approach to 22L which has mostly alleviated this but the short runways still mean you have to plant it.

Starlionblue · Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:27 am

Familiarity is a big thing. Kai Tak was a very challenging, captain-only airport for most carriers. For Cathay, it was home port and FOs flew the approaches routinely.

The same would go for many airports. Many places are quite challenging if you operate once every couple of years, but fairly straightforward if you go there a few times a week.

GalaxyFlyer · Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:55 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Familiarity is a big thing. Kai Tak was a very challenging, captain-only airport for most carriers. For Cathay, it was home port and FOs flew the approaches routinely.

The same would go for many airports. Many places are quite challenging if you operate once every couple of years, but fairly straightforward if you go there a few times a week.

Therein lies the business jet challenge. We did a flight into Paro, with the required Druk Air pilot in the jump seat. All went well, but many airports nearly as, or more, difficult don’t have that requirement for experienced pilot to be there. A lot of French and Swiss alpine airports are easy for the familiar, a real hazard to the crew that’s never been there when the Mr. Big asks for the trip.

bhill · Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:40 pm

Whew weee!!! https://www.google.com/search?q=PARO+ai ... bLHah4XUwk

rt23456p · Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:50 am

zjyx? if you consider that commercial

Starlionblue · Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:07 am

rt23456p wrote:
zjyx? if you consider that commercial

Woody Island doesn't seem to have any particular challenges. No surrounding high terrain and a simple layout.

Florianopolis · Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:36 am

May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

GalaxyFlyer · Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:52 pm

Aspen and SunValley in my experience as a gatekeepe

N1120A · Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aspen and SunValley in my experience as a gatekeepe

Now these are good examples of challenging airports. SUN has become easier for OO pilots with their bespoke LPV approach giving pretty reasonable mins, but ASE is just absolutely ridiculous.

Alias1024 · Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:40 pm

N1120A wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aspen and SunValley in my experience as a gatekeepe

Now these are good examples of challenging airports. SUN has become easier for OO pilots with their bespoke LPV approach giving pretty reasonable mins, but ASE is just absolutely ridiculous.

Another airport made considerably less difficult due to bespoke RNP approaches is JNU. It’s still more challenging than the vast majority of airports but less so than in the past.

Starlionblue · Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:34 am

Florianopolis wrote:
May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

ArcticFlyer · Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:16 am

Florianopolis wrote:
May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

DCA when landing south (at least in the good ol' pre-RNP days)

Phlogopite · Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:28 am

One very challenging (but barely known) airport is IXL/VILH (Kushok Bakula Rimpochee Airport) serving Leh in northern India, quite active with more than 15 flights scheduled today (A320 and 737). Having experienced it as a passenger, the approach and departure are very impressive with multiple turns between the mountains, a runway at 10’800 ft, not aligned with the orientation of the valley and a transition altitude of 24’000 ft. Sporty.
I never found “official” charts but simplified ones are available on ivao India.

GalaxyFlyer · Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:14 pm

I always thought SBRJ/SDU challenging and respected the locals operating A320 or B737 out of there. Circle around the bowl to land on 4300’ with zero overrun, just a swim. Departed toward Sugarloaf thru the gap out of the harbor. Winds shifted during day to favor one direction or the other. I loved flying the Global in and out, but it’s speeds are lower than an airliner and I had a HUD.

dfwjim1 · Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:16 pm

Cusco, Peru most likely is a difficult airport...one way in and out and surrounded by mountains.

Chaostheory · Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:37 pm

Anywhere you're flying in to when it's dark and you're tired.

Memorable flight for all the wrong reasons when we had to divert from East Mids to Coventry Baginton at silly o clock. Thankfully ATC obliged us with a talk down approach.

Yikes! · Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:09 am

CYYZ: 3 runway changes from TOD to IAF. A huge horrible international embarrassment.

atcdan · Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:07 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

LAX haha

Aaron747 · Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:15 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Starlionblue · Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:36 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Combine this with Chaoetheory's comment about being tired and it is indeed challenging.

N1120A · Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:44 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Florianopolis wrote:
May I rephrase this question? Which airport is the most likely to lead to a call from your FOQA folks?

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Part of that is lack of hand flying proficiency. Spinning knobs and letting George fly those vectors they give in VMC can result in being high and overshooting final.

seat55a · Fri Apr 07, 2023 7:39 pm

jrfspa320 wrote:
Magnum9 wrote:
jrfspa320 wrote:
ZQN is an interesting one

Queenstown, yes! How did this one escape my mind. Was fortunate to spend NYE 2018 there. Such incredible views on approach to runway 23. I wonder if 23 is always used for arrivals or if they ever come in over the lake on runway 05?

They do use both ends

As I understand it for quite a while NZ had an operational advantage into ZQN being the only carrier equipped and trained for the GPS precision approach into 23. Now all the scheduled carriers do? Indeed spectacular but with the automation it's not a Bhutan level of challenge.

dfwjim1 · Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:28 pm

I wonder if Maui (PHOG) would be considered challenging by pilots due to the strong winds that blow through the area.

Starlionblue · Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:02 am

N1120A wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Part of that is lack of hand flying proficiency. Spinning knobs and letting George fly those vectors they give in VMC can result in being high and overshooting final.

At some ports where we often have to do a visual circuit, we are specifically told NOT to use the autopilot to final. Using the autopilot for a visual circuit will not result in the track you are expected to fly. The autopilot flies great but it isn't really designed to take you from downwind to final that way.

Aaron747 · Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:12 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
I wonder if Maui (PHOG) would be considered challenging by pilots due to the strong winds that blow through the area.

For sure Maui is always turbulent due to being in a valley between Haleakala and the Mauna Kahalawai on the west side. But in general the winds at OGG are usually 360-040, basically right down the runway. Not too challenging really, just gotta watch out for local GA activity.

Aaron747 · Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:15 am

N1120A wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:

Anywhere ATC keeps you high and/or likes to maintain the same runway even with significant tailwind on final.

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Part of that is lack of hand flying proficiency. Spinning knobs and letting George fly those vectors they give in VMC can result in being high and overshooting final.

Hard to disagree. If I think back to my last few arrivals in the back there, by the way the aircraft handled, the ones on KE and SQ were definitely on autopilot, whereas the ones on UA and JL seemed hand-flown.

N1120A · Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:32 am

Starlionblue wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Part of that is lack of hand flying proficiency. Spinning knobs and letting George fly those vectors they give in VMC can result in being high and overshooting final.

At some ports where we often have to do a visual circuit, we are specifically told NOT to use the autopilot to final. Using the autopilot for a visual circuit will not result in the track you are expected to fly. The autopilot flies great but it isn't really designed to take you from downwind to final that way.

Was this one the reason? ;-)

That has George written all over it.

https://youtu.be/78V66AbPGj4

Aaron747 wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

A lot of TPAC pilots say SFO is not a walk in the park due to being kept high and having to get down in a hurry to join visuals to the 28s. I think crews arriving from the east have it a bit easier.

Part of that is lack of hand flying proficiency. Spinning knobs and letting George fly those vectors they give in VMC can result in being high and overshooting final.

Hard to disagree. If I think back to my last few arrivals in the back there, by the way the aircraft handled, the ones on KE and SQ were definitely on autopilot, whereas the ones on UA and JL seemed hand-flown.

Yeah, those VMC visuals at SFO really just should be flown by hand and backed up by the FDs. Autopilots are great at most things, but they are not very good at subtle changes on tight approaches.

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