Thoughts on slot restrictions for corporate/GA aircraft?

canyonblue17 · Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:02 pm

I work at PBI - an airport that for several months of the year sees a massive influx of corporate aircraft. On many weekends, this influx is a major factor leading to air traffic control delays - even on perfect weather days. The problem is consistent. The problem is predictable. These delays often lead to misconnections and occasionally cancelations for commercial routes. I was wondering whether some type of slot restriction would help reduce these delays? Any other thoughts or ideas?

ArcticFlyer · Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:08 pm

DCA, LGA and (during certain hours) JFK have a "reservation" system for non-scheduled operators that is essentially first-come, first-served. Not a true "slot" system since the operators and arrival/departure times change from day to day but the goal is the same, i.e. to ration traffic to/from these airports.

MSJYOP28Apilot · Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:45 pm

Before slot restrictions, how about use existing rules first. All flights arriving into these airports during peak hours must be on IFR flight plans and no VFR traffic or VFR destination changes will be accepted. No traffic accepted into class A airspace that departed VFR. Subject corporate and GA operators to the same rules the airlines have to follow. Eliminate the VFR loophole they all use that airlines are unable to use. Everyone gets treated the same going to congested airports and airspace.

GalaxyFlyer · Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:47 pm

How many GA departures are going VFR, then trying to get a clearance into the high structure? Is that causing delays at KPBI, KBCT, KMIA? I rather doubt it, having done tons of flying down there in bizjets. VFR is not a “loophole”; it’s a perfectly normal operation. In any case, there’re not causing the delays. What existing rule requires arrivals to be on an IFR flight plan?

canyonblue17 · Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:37 pm

It just seems like there has to be a solution to this. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. This situation at PBI, and I'm sure several other airports, will only get worse over time. Its not unusual on a day like today (Sunday - in season) for there to be one or two commerical aircraft lined up at the same time as a dozen corporate jets.

GalaxyFlyer · Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:40 pm

Not insanity, just a normal day at PBI. A dozen, I’ve seen twice that on any given weekday at KHPN or KTEB. An hour wait isn’t unusual at either airport.

canyonblue17 · Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:09 pm

"An hour wait isn't unusual." - Is exactly my point. It is predictable and for that reason should be avoidable with the right system.

GalaxyFlyer · Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:37 pm

The wait is common, predicting it is not easy by the nature of GA. Flexibility in scheduling is expected, so reservations wouldn’t help as you wouldn’t know when to impose the reservation system and once imposed every operator would work around it. Make reservations required for PBI, Sundays from noon to 2000; everyone lines up to go between 2001 and 2300, just moving the jam up. Impose a 24-hour system, lots of wasted slots that aren’t required.

Friday late afternoons, especially at KTEB is the mirror image of PBI on Sunday evenings. As more rich people move to Florida, it might straighten itself out as they manage their days in FL versus NY. I’ve seen phone apps that track one’s days in different tax jurisdictions to minimize tax exposure.

What area of aviation are you in at PBI?

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:41 am

But it really is predictable. A quick look at these delays over the past few years would easily show when the problem days and times are. Fridays afternoons are generally the busiest for arrivals and Sunday afternoons are the same for departures. Flightaware.com is one of several websites that already tracks daily flight totals per airport. I'm sure finding specific times during the busiest days wouldn't be much harder to determine. Then you set a limit of corporate/GA arrivals/departures during that time. You could do it first come/first serve - or issue them to the highest bidder.

ArcticFlyer · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:05 am

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Before slot restrictions, how about use existing rules first. All flights arriving into these airports during peak hours must be on IFR flight plans and no VFR traffic or VFR destination changes will be accepted. No traffic accepted into class A airspace that departed VFR. Subject corporate and GA operators to the same rules the airlines have to follow. Eliminate the VFR loophole they all use that airlines are unable to use. Everyone gets treated the same going to congested airports and airspace.

What existing rules are those? PBI is Class C which means VFR is perfectly legal. Furthermore, it is absolutely legal and sometimes helpful to depart VFR and pick up your IFR clearance in the air, or to cancel IFR and proceed to your destination VFR. Even airlines can do this under certain circumstances although they usually don't and it would rarely benefit them to do so.

You're proposing a lot of new rules rather than the application of existing ones.

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:45 am

I’m not a pilot - please explain why VFR or IFR helps pilots get into a congested airport? Specifically - does one allow a flight to get in or out of a congested airport without being counted or subject to airline restrictions. Basically - is it a dodge? And I’m talking how it’s really applied - not what it’s meant to do.

N1120A · Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:06 am

There are no slot restrictions at PBI. You might get a flow time if there is a traffic management program in effect.

DCA is unique because of the idiotic inner ring SFRA rules and basically no GA other than a corporate jet out of a DCA gateway airport is getting in there. People can and do fly VFR and IFR in GA planes into other busy airports all the time.

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Before slot restrictions, how about use existing rules first. All flights arriving into these airports during peak hours must be on IFR flight plans and no VFR traffic or VFR destination changes will be accepted. No traffic accepted into class A airspace that departed VFR. Subject corporate and GA operators to the same rules the airlines have to follow. Eliminate the VFR loophole they all use that airlines are unable to use. Everyone gets treated the same going to congested airports and airspace.

Tell me where there is Class A airspace in the US below FL180?

VFR isn't a "loophole." In many ways, VFR flying is MORE regimented than IFR flying is. Also, public use airports are there for the public. Taxpayers flying their own airplanes are as entitled as anyone to fly in.

GalaxyFlyer · Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:39 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
I’m not a pilot - please explain why VFR or IFR helps pilots get into a congested airport? Specifically - does one allow a flight to get in or out of a congested airport without being counted or subject to airline restrictions. Basically - is it a dodge? And I’m talking how it’s really applied - not what it’s meant to do.

I’ll give an answer at KLGA, in the old days, but the rules haven’t changed much. I can’t IFR reservation as a GA LGA, boss wants to go to LGA, departing from, say PNI. I file an IFR flight plan to HPN. On the STAR into HPN, i ask if LGA is taking VFRs. “Affirm, do you want cancel and get a clearance into the Class B?” It’s in a workload permitting basis and this might not work. Off we go to LGA. All very legal and in days past, very common. Same system at LGA today, but I doubt any corporates use it much.

Departing Grand Island, NB, go VFR and pick up the clearance airborne so you don’t have to use a bad phone connection. There’s loads of cases.

N1120A · Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:12 pm

Super short VFR corporate flights with King Airs and Citations into LGA are relatively common. If they don't need the altitude for range/cost, and the weather permits, it can make sense to go VFR and ATC can actually be the accommodate it. Since LGA is Class B, you're getting IFR separation services anyway.

The issue in Florida lately has been problems with the high level sectors at ZJX, which has made lower level IFR and corporate VFR a bit more common of late.

IAHFLYR · Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:55 pm

N1120A wrote:
Since LGA is Class B, you're getting IFR separation services anyway.

Class B separation with VFR aircraft isn't IFR separation. ATC provides VFR aircraft 500' vertical or 1.5 NM from VFR/IFR that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and 500' vertical or target resolution between VFR/IFR aircraft weighing 19,000 lbs or less. But, to your point you're provided separation though less than standard IFR separation.

N1120A · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:08 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
N1120A wrote:
Since LGA is Class B, you're getting IFR separation services anyway.

Class B separation with VFR aircraft isn't IFR separation. ATC provides VFR aircraft 500' vertical or 1.5 NM from VFR/IFR that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and 500' vertical or target resolution between VFR/IFR aircraft weighing 19,000 lbs or less. But, to your point you're provided separation though less than standard IFR separation.

Correct. I didn't mean IFR rules of separation, but guaranteed radar separation for all aircraft in the airspace.

ArcticFlyer · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:12 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
Class B separation with VFR aircraft isn't IFR separation. ATC provides VFR aircraft 500' vertical or 1.5 NM from VFR/IFR that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and 500' vertical or target resolution between VFR/IFR aircraft weighing 19,000 lbs or less. But, to your point you're provided separation though less than standard IFR separation.

N1120A wrote:
The issue in Florida lately has been problems with the high level sectors at ZJX, which has made lower level IFR and corporate VFR a bit more common of late.

VFR, therefore, isn't a "loophole" but simply maximizing the utilization of the available sky.

IAHFLYR · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:20 pm

ArcticFlyer wrote:
VFR, therefore, isn't a "loophole" but simply maximizing the utilization of the available sky.

True however, there is always the possibility of the controller being busy and has every right to tell the VFR folks to remain clear of Class B airspace should they not feel able to provide the separation then your out of luck.

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:57 pm

Ok - so while pulling the VFR move isn't technically a dodge - it can exacerbate an already bad situation. Either way - it adds to the need for some type of organized flight restriction into an airport like PBI or HPN during peak demand - when that demand is clearly greater than what the airport can handle.

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:59 pm

And dumb question - why isn't this topic being recycled to the top of the forum when updates are added?

N1120A · Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:21 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
Ok - so while pulling the VFR move isn't technically a dodge - it can exacerbate an already bad situation. Either way - it adds to the need for some type of organized flight restriction into an airport like PBI or HPN during peak demand - when that demand is clearly greater than what the airport can handle.

HPN has a way to do that. "Remain clear of the Class D." PBI approach can say "Remain clear of the Class C," or "PBI is closed to arriving aircraft for the next XX minutes, say intentions."

Also, the issue isn't the airports. The acceptance rate for full stop aircraft is pretty much known, and rather easy to handle at a VFR tower - which HPN certainly is. Shut down the pattern, only accept departures and arrivals, etc. The issue of late has been problems with upper level airspace.

canyonblue17 wrote:
And dumb question - why isn't this topic being recycled to the top of the forum when updates are added?

User error? It is in order of last updated for me.

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:47 pm

"The issue of late has been problems with upper level airspace."

Please explain.....thanks

Woodreau · Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:52 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
"The issue of late has been problems with upper level airspace."

Please explain.....thanks

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1482759

N1120A · Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:59 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
"The issue of late has been problems with upper level airspace."

Please explain.....thanks

ZJX is very poorly staffed for all their crossing traffic in the upper flight levels. Many TRACONs can handle TEC up to FL230 (most don't, except the really big ones like SCT/NCT/N90/C90/etc), but above that is always Center airspace. Last week, a G4 flying FNT-PGD did so at like 13000' because of this. The problem seems to be southbound traffic, not northbound.

NLINK · Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:06 pm

Airports are not paid for by the taxpayers just for airlines. GA and corporate have just as much right to them.

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:27 pm

"Airports are not paid for by the taxpayers just for airlines. GA and corporate have just as much right to them."

I agree completely. Just trying to organize both of them. It gets hard to do when there are 300 corporate jets one day and 50 the next - when the airline schedules are very predictable.

GalaxyFlyer · Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:53 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
"Airports are not paid for by the taxpayers just for airlines. GA and corporate have just as much right to them."

I agree completely. Just trying to organize both of them. It gets hard to do when there are 300 corporate jets one day and 50 the next - when the airline schedules are very predictable.

You should be at Derby Day at KSDF. There really are 300 bizjets all leaving at once.

GalaxyFlyer · Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:56 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
"Airports are not paid for by the taxpayers just for airlines. GA and corporate have just as much right to them."

I agree completely. Just trying to organize both of them. It gets hard to do when there are 300 corporate jets one day and 50 the next - when the airline schedules are very predictable.

Mr Big waits. I had a passing connection with one of the most entitled Mr Big. Months later, it gave me great amusement to taxi by without delay at TEB while he and crew got a 90 minute metering delay for South Florida.

kalvado · Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:39 pm

Very remotely related topic...
Many cities are giving some advantage to public transportation running on public streets. Multiple reasons for that, from reducing overall number of vehicles on the road to assumed environmental benefits....

IAHFLYR · Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You should be at Derby Day at KSDF. There really are 300 bizjets all leaving at once.

Or when the Super Bowl is in town......thankfully we had a great number of airports to funnel traffic and you have to have a reservation weeks out. Some FBO ramps at HOU got so packed that they had to drop off their pax and then relocate to EFD or GLS. A mad house when leaving late Sunday night and even more so Monday almost the entire day full of corporate traffic mixing in with the airline banks. Sure was a quick day at work in the TRACON as time flew by. :yes:

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:21 pm

These are all good points - but none of them solve the problem. How do you organize an influx of aircraft (almost exclusively corporate/GA) on specific (predictable) days? This isn't a one-off event like the Derby or SuperBowl - its like having those days, twice a week - for three months straight. The current system fails day after day at this.

jetblueguy22 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:33 pm

canyonblue17 wrote:
These are all good points - but none of them solve the problem. How do you organize an influx of aircraft (almost exclusively corporate/GA) on specific (predictable) days? This isn't a one-off event like the Derby or SuperBowl - its like having those days, twice a week - for three months straight. The current system fails day after day at this.

The only solution is to build more airports - which isn’t going to happen. The current system in place is going to be what we have. If there is any airport in the US where you’re going to struggle to implement any kind of reduction on private jets, it’s PBI. The amount of money that would be spent lobbying against whatever idea you come up with would be astronomical.

canyonblue17 · Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:46 pm

"The amount of money that would be spent lobbying against whatever idea you come up with would be astronomical."

I like a good challenge, but sadly I agree. And the regular Joe - paying for coach - sitting on a JetBlue A320 or Southwest 737 - trying to get home to their family on a Sunday night in season, will continue to suffer.

kalvado · Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:14 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
canyonblue17 wrote:
These are all good points - but none of them solve the problem. How do you organize an influx of aircraft (almost exclusively corporate/GA) on specific (predictable) days? This isn't a one-off event like the Derby or SuperBowl - its like having those days, twice a week - for three months straight. The current system fails day after day at this.

The only solution is to build more airports - which isn’t going to happen. The current system in place is going to be what we have. If there is any airport in the US where you’re going to struggle to implement any kind of reduction on private jets, it’s PBI. The amount of money that would be spent lobbying against whatever idea you come up with would be astronomical.

I know something like that was mentioned above... Stores and offices have "take a number and wait comfortably" system. Just as another option

GalaxyFlyer · Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:31 am

canyonblue17 wrote:
These are all good points - but none of them solve the problem. How do you organize an influx of aircraft (almost exclusively corporate/GA) on specific (predictable) days? This isn't a one-off event like the Derby or SuperBowl - its like having those days, twice a week - for three months straight. The current system fails day after day at this.

What goes on at PBI, TEB, HPN is bagatelle compared to Derby Day or Super Bowl. I was scheduled into State College, PA one morning, entered the hold with 45 minute EFC. WTF is going on here? I learned not belittle Penn State football games, sitting a cold hangar waiting for inevitable mad dash for outbound ckearance over the telephone. “void if not airborne by xxxxxZ”; is N12345 there at the phone?”

They do a reservation system in snow country for KASE, KEGE, KHDN during the winter months. The weather, terrain and ATC all make reservations necessary on weekends. Again, PBI is nothing by comparison. The problem in Florida is JAX center, the airspace structure (lots of military areas) and everything funneling into a point.

SteelChair · Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:20 am

Most posters in this thread are only looking at airports. There is also such extreme congestion in the airborne portion that on most holiday weekends there are airway flow programs to Florida because ATC claims the sectors are overloaded. It's like RVSM and RNP never even happened. The huge increase during these times comes from business jets, which really aren't business. It's rich people from the Northeast USA going to Florida.

GalaxyFlyer · Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:39 am

Put a line of weather between PNS to offshore JAX and flow gets pretty restricted regardless of RNP and RVSM. I’ve seen days where there’s maybe one hole and everybody has to fit thru it or wait on the ground. JAX Center has been a bottleneck forever.

SteelChair · Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:56 am

It happens even on non weather days. Or days when there is only green on the radar.

NightMaher · Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:32 am

At PBI, some of the congestion is from the biz-jets and commercial aircraft having to operate chiefly from only one runway, 10L/28R. There has been talk for years about rebuidling and lengthening 10R/28L into something usable by commercial/jet traffic as well. That would cut down with a lot of the congestion I see (I work at the southwest corner of PBI), but I don't know if there is a current timeline to make those runway changes happen.

IAHFLYR · Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:15 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Most posters in this thread are only looking at airports. There is also such extreme congestion in the airborne portion that on most holiday weekends there are airway flow programs to Florida because ATC claims the sectors are overloaded. It's like RVSM and RNP never even happened.

.

When I last worked in a TRACON back in 2012, ZHU had a specific number of aircraft that sector could handle and if it was going to be exceeded someone was going to hold, get an entrail number assigned to sectors that fed them or reroutes around that sector. Had nothing to do with the who the was controller at the time on the position (should have at times :stirthepot:

), strictly based upon if they were feeding arrivals into the TRACON, had miles entrail to another sector and many other metrics to determine that number of aircraft. It did not have anything to do with RVSM or RNP, in fact I'd offer RNP is much more valuable in the terminal environment though I'm sure others here might not agree.

GalaxyFlyer · Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:42 pm

Question for IAHFLYER: does cruise flight level factor into the in-trail spacing and number. I’ve flown up and down the East Coast for decades, mostly above F410. Does it help?

SteelChair · Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:00 pm

IAHFLYR wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Most posters in this thread are only looking at airports. There is also such extreme congestion in the airborne portion that on most holiday weekends there are airway flow programs to Florida because ATC claims the sectors are overloaded. It's like RVSM and RNP never even happened.
.

When I last worked in a TRACON back in 2012, ZHU had a specific number of aircraft that sector could handle and if it was going to be exceeded someone was going to hold, get an entrail number assigned to sectors that fed them or reroutes around that sector. Had nothing to do with the who the was controller at the time on the position (should have at times ), strictly based upon if they were feeding arrivals into the TRACON, had miles entrail to another sector and many other metrics to determine that number of aircraft. It did not have anything to do with RVSM or RNP, in fact I'd offer RNP is much more valuable in the terminal environment though I'm sure others here might not agree.

I think what I hear you saying is that the FAA forced operators to equip with RVSM and RNP for no reason. Stated another way: if the FAA was unable to put in place procedures or personnel to take advantage of the new capabilities, then the new capabilities were worthless. RNP and RVSM were a big splash, an appearance of progress. Perceptions were managed. But the bottom line doesn't change...the system can't even handle 2007 levels of traffic now.

canyonblue17 · Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:29 pm

"There has been talk for years about rebuidling and lengthening 10R/28L into something usable by commercial/jet traffic as well. That would cut down with a lot of the congestion I see (I work at the southwest corner of PBI), but I don't know if there is a current timeline to make those runway changes happen."

It was part of the PBI airport 10-year master plan. It would involve tearing down several hangers that currently exist to extend 10R/28L. And considering they are building more corporate hangers wherever they can find space on the airport these days (Gulfstream/NetJets/JetAviation) - I don't see tearing down current hangers likely to happen - even though a full-length parallel runway would defintely help reduce delays.

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:19 am

Airlines are subject to FCAs, AFPs, GDPs and groundstops. VFR GA traffic is not subject to these things. It definitely is a loophole. AIrlines can sit on the ground in increasing length delays as traffic as GA traffic gets in to those same airports with no delay after taking off VFR. Every single airline deals with this. If airlines tried to game the system by departing VFR, the FAA would suddenly change the rules and no longer allow the VFR loophole to avoid ATC flow programs.

Delays caused by ZJX staffing problems are not helped by VFR GA traffic that request IFR after takeoff and entry into class A airspace. When the ATC command center applies FCAs, AFPs they use the scheduled and planned IFR flights to issue EDCTS. When there is more traffic than planned, this increases delays and leads to groundstops and increased metering for spacing.

GalaxyFlyer · Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:57 am

Again, it is not a loophole, it’s the way the regulations and long custom is designed to work. A loophole is an unintended workaround the law or regulation. None of those waiting bizjets are departing VFR, then getting a clearance, that’s why they’re waiting. Having flown bizjets, I guarantee, they’re not departing PBI VFR, because they’ll likely be refused a clearance or get caught out. ATC will come down hard on an operator that tried, it’s watched.

Airlines, by their OPS SPECS, cannot operate jets VFR, full stop. EA used to use Electras to VFR during ATC slowdowns because legally they could.

ZJX’s traffic problems aren’t caused by IFR pop-ups at 17,500’

IAHFLYR · Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:40 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Question for IAHFLYER: does cruise flight level factor into the in-trail spacing and number. I’ve flown up and down the East Coast for decades, mostly above F410. Does it help?

It didn't use to factor as the airplane still had to go through the low altitude sectors. If we had an E45X going from IAH to SHV at FL250 and a B764 going from IAH to EWR at FL370 we still had to provide that low altitude sector whatever the in-trail spacing they told us to give them.

IAHFLYR · Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:45 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I think what I hear you saying is that the FAA forced operators to equip with RVSM and RNP for no reason. Stated another way: if the FAA was unable to put in place procedures or personnel to take advantage of the new capabilities, then the new capabilities were worthless. RNP and RVSM were a big splash, an appearance of progress. Perceptions were managed. But the bottom line doesn't change...the system can't even handle 2007 levels of traffic now.

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. Now mind you I've not been in a facility since the end of 2012, so cannot actually tell you if there are any advantages gain within the enroute environment though I believe there have been as I know the the Houston Metroplex or OAPM plan they did provide dual arrival routes into the TRACON airspace and are using them. Not sure if ZHU has added additional sectors to enhance their use, but would seem they have since they are able to drop more arrivals into the terminal airspace than previously when I was working. Keep in mind I never worked in a center during my 36 years so what you are reading is from my perspective in the terminal option.

ArcticFlyer · Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:43 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Airlines are subject to FCAs, AFPs, GDPs and groundstops. VFR GA traffic is not subject to these things. It definitely is a loophole. AIrlines can sit on the ground in increasing length delays as traffic as GA traffic gets in to those same airports with no delay after taking off VFR. Every single airline deals with this. If airlines tried to game the system by departing VFR, the FAA would suddenly change the rules and no longer allow the VFR loophole to avoid ATC flow programs.

VFR traffic absolutely can be subject to flow control and groundstops - I've seen it firsthand. At a previous company we had a crew that thought they were pretty brilliant and took off VFR to "avoid" the flow control at their destination and upon arrival TRACON informed them: "We are not accepting VFR traffic; remain outside Class C and say intentions." Not much of a loophole.

VFR traffic is always handled on a workload-permitting basis whether Class B, C or even D. When doing pattern work at Class D airports I've been instructed to land or leave because a string of IFR arrivals was inbound and they couldn't accomodate me without extending my downwind into Timbuktu. The IFR traffic has priority, plain and simple, and while it is true that a VFR flight might be able to slip in through the cracks (due to the reduced separation requirements) it is not a guarantee and hardly a "loophole".

N1120A · Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:13 pm

Using Visual Flight Rules to facilitate operational efficiency is no more a loophole than using Instrument Flight Rules to avoid airspace clearance issues is. I've flown light GA into 5 Class B airports. IFR arrivals every time and only 1 VFR departure. I never had an issue getting in, which would have been a lot more questionable VFR.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Again, it is not a loophole, it’s the way the regulations and long custom is designed to work. A loophole is an unintended workaround the law or regulation. None of those waiting bizjets are departing VFR, then getting a clearance, that’s why they’re waiting. Having flown bizjets, I guarantee, they’re not departing PBI VFR, because they’ll likely be refused a clearance or get caught out. ATC will come down hard on an operator that tried, it’s watched.

Airlines, by their OPS SPECS, cannot operate jets VFR, full stop. EA used to use Electras to VFR during ATC slowdowns because legally they could.

ZJX’s traffic problems aren’t caused by IFR pop-ups at 17,500’

SkyWest can and do depart various airports VFR and pick up within a certain number of miles, usually ones that don't have towers or that they depart outside tower hours. They can also cancel within a certain distance, with the airport in sight, on arrival. Alaska has their VFR operations in Alaska and I believe they can do other VFR stuff at times.

ArcticFlyer wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Airlines are subject to FCAs, AFPs, GDPs and groundstops. VFR GA traffic is not subject to these things. It definitely is a loophole. AIrlines can sit on the ground in increasing length delays as traffic as GA traffic gets in to those same airports with no delay after taking off VFR. Every single airline deals with this. If airlines tried to game the system by departing VFR, the FAA would suddenly change the rules and no longer allow the VFR loophole to avoid ATC flow programs.

VFR traffic absolutely can be subject to flow control and groundstops - I've seen it firsthand. At a previous company we had a crew that thought they were pretty brilliant and took off VFR to "avoid" the flow control at their destination and upon arrival TRACON informed them: "We are not accepting VFR traffic; remain outside Class C and say intentions." Not much of a loophole.

VFR traffic is always handled on a workload-permitting basis whether Class B, C or even D. When doing pattern work at Class D airports I've been instructed to land or leave because a string of IFR arrivals was inbound and they couldn't accomodate me without extending my downwind into Timbuktu. The IFR traffic has priority, plain and simple, and while it is true that a VFR flight might be able to slip in through the cracks (due to the reduced separation requirements) it is not a guarantee and hardly a "loophole".

Actually, IFR traffic does not have priority at a VFR Class D tower. Now, the tower will likely give priority to getting a departure with a release out, but they sequence the runway the same way regardless of VFR or IFR. They can and will tell approach to hold IFRs if needed as well, due to their own workload. I've had that happen to me.

ArcticFlyer · Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:04 pm

N1120A wrote:
Using Visual Flight Rules to facilitate operational efficiency is no more a loophole than using Instrument Flight Rules to avoid airspace clearance issues is. I've flown light GA into 5 Class B airports. IFR arrivals every time and only 1 VFR departure. I never had an issue getting in, which would have been a lot more questionable VFR.

I've flown VFR into/out of Class B airports multiple times (mainly PHL) and the controllers were always accomodating. A friend of mine even flew into JFK under VFR once and it was also a non-issue, although JFK has a reservation system during certain hours and he flew in outside of that window.

N1120A wrote:
SkyWest can and do depart various airports VFR and pick up within a certain number of miles, usually ones that don't have towers or that they depart outside tower hours. They can also cancel within a certain distance, with the airport in sight, on arrival. Alaska has their VFR operations in Alaska and I believe they can do other VFR stuff at times.

Absolutely. Most airlines have the OpSpec that permits VFR in the terminal area; you just can't operate a jet enroute under VFR except for very limited circumstances which are detailed in a different OpSpec.

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