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tripseven
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Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:43 am

I just flew UA 4 from SFO-JFK last night. I listened to "from the cockpit" and noticed that our 767-222 (N606UA, "City of Chicago") was identified as "United 4 Heavy" by ATC. What is the definition of "heavy" and when does a flight take on that designation? I had thought it was used to indicate a plane that was so loaded down with fuel that it would be too heavy and stressful for the landing gear to handle, thus resulting in the need to dump fuel before landing. However, this morning on our approach into JFK we were still identified as "UA 4 Heavy" after presumably burning most of the fuel originally onboard for the flight. Please advise...

Thanks
 
AFC_Ajax00
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:55 am

I think it does have to do somewhat with the MTOW and the overall size of the aircraft but im not really sure
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you long to return
 
Gib
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:03 am

Heavy = aircraft w/MTOW @/< 250,000 lbs.
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:05 am

A heavy is classified as any aircraft capable of a MTOW of 255,000lbs or more (regardless of what they actually weigh at T/O). Use to be 300,000lbs but has recently been reduced.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 2:46 am

For those of us not living in the middle ages:
A heavy has a max.T.O.W. of more then 136.000 kg.
 Big grin
 
FLY 8
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:18 am

Every Aircraft over 150 t max. TOW is regardet as heavy.
The only exemption is the 757!
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of

Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:50 am

>>For those of us not living in the middle ages: A heavy has a max.T.O.W. of more then 136.000 kg.<<

Sabena,

You mean the world doesn't revolve around the U.S.'s weight and measurement system?!?  Wink/being sarcastic
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Definition Of

Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:54 am

>>>Every Aircraft over 150 t max. TOW is regardet as heavy. The only exemption is the 757!


As they say at Hertz rent-a-car, "Not exactly.."

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Appendices/atcapda.html

Scroll down about one click's worth, and you'll see FAA's definitions. The former 300,000 lb. (150 ton) takeoff weight threshold was changed (in 1996 or 1997, as I recall) after a series of accident/incidents involving aircraft behind 757s, including a particularly ugly Westwind bizjet crash near SNA.

In one of the many other threads on this subject, someone (ATC background) stated that *all* 757s were considered heavies...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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c172akula
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 3:55 am

Although the 757 isn't defined as a heavy, with regards to wake turbulence separation it is classified as a heavy, due to the nature of turbulence with its wings.

 Big thumbs up
 
OPNLguy
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Clarification

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:01 am

>>>In one of the many other threads on this subject, someone (ATC background) stated that *all* 757s were considered heavies *for wake turbulence separation purposes* even though 757 shows as being a "large" (L) aircraft.

128K brain, 300bps fingers....  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:21 am

The term heavy after an aircraft's callsign is only used in ATC calls in the USA, nowhere else.

Why is this?

 
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c172akula
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:23 am

The term "Heavy" is also used in Canadian ATC. I'm not sure about anywhere else.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:49 am

Sorry chief, meant North American ATC!

I'm from the UK, you're all the same to me. (In the nicest possible way!)
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:00 am

In europe they use "heavy" and "long"... heavy meaning the weight of the airplane, and long meaning hte length. For example "Northwest 496 Heavy Long".. meaning the airplane is over the 250,000 pound (125 ton now i guess?) MGTOW weight and a certain length of which i am not sure of.

Btw- the heavy call sign is for any aircraft who's MGTOW is over the 250/300,000 pound mark. It may weigh under that at that point in time, but is still considered a heavy aircraft.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:09 am

The actually only use heavy in North America. I am have not heard if it is used in Asia/Australia as non of my friends fly down there.
I still think heavy is a waste of radio time, I have never been told it was a heavy without being told what type of plane it was, and you always have to be careful of wake turbulance!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:37 am

I have heard some 757s such as ATA's all coach class models called "Heavy" by DCA twr, but the USair, NW, TWA and others were not. Could it be that only some 75s are considered heavy?

Gregg
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Iainhol

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:13 am

Hey Iainhol, are you sure about that? My dad always talks about being "heavy long" when going over Europe.... it is even in the northwest Jeppesen approach and airway manuals. The specific case i remember is Milan definitely... i KNOW they use it in italy..but if my memory serves me correctly it is all of Europe. Check the regs... maybe you just havent heard it or something over there... its in the international flight regulations for northwest so i am sure there is some substance to it.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
FLY 8
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:17 am

The term heavy is also used in Europe!!

I never heard the term heavy long.
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:36 am

American operators use it the term in Europe out of habit. European operators, however, do not. Only when they operate in North American airspace do they use it, as they have to.
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:37 am

FLY 8 is it required or used? I friend of mine who is a BA pilot assured me it is not required, or atleast he never says it!
Iain
 
RNOcommctr
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Wed Mar 21, 2001 12:30 pm

Heavy can also refer to personnel in ground vehicles. Here at RNO, we once had a rather stocky operations officer who, while doing a field inspection, asked ground control for clearance to cross runway 25. The ground controller, knowing to whom he was speaking, replied, "Ops 12 Heavy, hold short of runway 25".

Hope you all enjoyed a bit (a very small bit) of humor in this thread!
Active loading only, ma'am, keep it moving!
 
modesto2
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Wed Mar 21, 2001 2:19 pm

I'm glad we've finally settled the weight at 255,000. I can't count how many times people have sworn that it is 250,000 or 300,000. Anyways, I've heard heavy used in Europe. As for the 757, "heavy" is added to the callsign for those aircraft that can exceed the 255 limit. For example, ATA's 757's have a high density configuration. Thus, they can exceed 255. However, DL's 757's (for example) are not configured in such a manner that they can carry enough load to exceed 255. Thus, DL's 757 flights don't have "heavy" in the callsign. I hope this clears things up, once and for all!
 
FLY 8
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Wed Mar 21, 2001 7:55 pm

In Austria it is a must in Germany too!
I always hear Lufthansa or some other European airline, when they say heavy!
You only have to say the term heavy on initial contact with ATC.

Benjamin!
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Wed Mar 21, 2001 10:51 pm

>>You only have to say the term heavy on initial contact with ATC. <<

This could be it, as in the US you saw it everytime, this might be the difference he was trying to explain to me.
Iain
 
AeroGlobeAir7
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:28 am

An aircraft is designated as "______ heavy" if it is an aircraft large enough to create severe wake turbulence. Such as a 747-400, or your 767-200.
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:11 am

Modesto2:

The DL 757s at SLC were being referred to as heavies on the tower frequency when I was there yesterday.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:47 am

>>An aircraft is designated as "______ heavy" if it is an aircraft large enough to create severe wake turbulence. Such as a 747-400, or your 767-200.<<


Sorry, but that is incorrect.

Severe to who? A DC9-10 series could put out a severe wake for a C172 but it not called a "heavy".

The "Heavy" designation (as previously discussed by folks "in the know") is dependent on MGTOW capability....period!
That magic number is 255,000lbs or more.

Some operator's B757 have a MGTOW of 255,000lbs ( the low end cut off point for "heavy" designation), most B757-200's are around 250,000lbs which is a non-heavy. The B757-300's MGTOW is above 255,000lbs, so they are always a designated a "heavy".

ATC treats the B757 (regardless of weight) as a heavy (in trail spacing on appraoch) because of FAA studies showing a stronger than normal wake created by this aircraft for it's size and weight.

Disclaimer: These are US and FAA designations. Your mileage may vary in other countries. Please consult your owners manual and the local "rules of the road" of your intended destination. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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The AIM Says

Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:17 am

according to the FAR/AIM 2000 glossary, page PCG A-4:

AIRCRAFT CLASSES- For the purposes of Wake Turbulence Separation of Minima, ATC classifies aircraft as Heavy, Large, and Small as follows:

a. Heavy- Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more tahn 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

b. Large- Aircraft of more than 41,000 pounds, maximum certificated takeoff weight, up to 255,000 pounds.

c. Small- Aircraft of 41,000 pounds or less maximum certificated takeoff weight.


In the AIM section, pages 7-3-6 and 7-3-7, it talks about wake turbulence for heavy aircraft separtion. Notice that the 757 is not classified as heavy..they they do have specified separation jsut for it, b/c of its large size.


I cannot find any more specs for heavy aircraft in there.. that or i just dont have the time. hope this helps clarify some things.


Ill ask my dad about the 'heavy long' thing when he gets back into the states tommorrow i think.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
FLY 8
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:21 am

small: 0-5999 kg
medium: 6000-13499kg
heavy: 135000- ???kg

Those are the international ICAO defenitions!!
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
AeroGlobeAir7
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Sun Mar 25, 2001 5:00 pm

Hmm, that's what it said in Airways in their article last month (or the month before) on the Sabena A330 Brussels-Atlanta. It did slightly puzzle me.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
OPNLguy
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Aren't Semantics Fun?

Sun Mar 25, 2001 11:42 pm

The following is a link to the FAA's Order 7110.65, which deals with most everything ATC...

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0309.html#3-9-6

In a previous message, I posted another link containing an FAA table that shows the 757 as a (L)arge aircraft. The paragraph below is one of many in the link (the one in this message) that jointly mentions the "official" heavy aircraft and the 757 in the context of wake turbulence matters.



2. Separate any aircraft taking off from an intersection on the same runway (same or opposite direction takeoff), parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet, and parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet with runway thresholds offset by 500 feet or more, by ensuring that the aircraft does not start takeoff roll until at least 3 minutes after a heavy aircraft/B757 has taken off.

In reviewing all the messages in this thread, chatting with a couple of ATC buddies, and other checking around, the best theory/rationale I can come up with is that ATC uses the "heavy" designation for the 757 on the radio due to the increased liklihood that listeners are more apt to recall the wake turbulence hazards associated with the generalized "heavy" designation than they would if they were to try to remember the "exception" that the 757 isn't officially a heavy , but for all practical purposes is treated as one.

Just my 2 cents...

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
modesto2
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:38 am

To Fanoftristars and all others who are still confused about the 757...I don't think there's a straight answer for this question. According to Fanoftristars, DL 757's are labeled as "heavy". However, after listening to many ATC communications and speaking (and watching) controllers at Bay TRACON, I still maintain that most 757's do not carry the "heavy" designation. This does not question the validity of those who believe that the 757 is a "heavy". After listening to LAX and SFO transmissions for quite some time, the only 757's to receive this designation belong to American Trans Air. I have never heard a DL 757 being labeled a "heavy". This does not mean that Fanoftristars is wrong. It just means that in most situations (if I may generalize), only certain 757's, specifically charters are labeled "heavy". And after speaking with many air traffic controllers, some controllers aren't sure of the 255 limit. My conclusion? There isn't a straight answer!
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Definition Of

Mon Mar 26, 2001 10:48 am

31 posts to answer a simple question.

How many Airliners.net forum members does it take to change a lightbulb?

Answer: 31

The 757 is not designated a "heavy". However it does use the same seperation requirments as a heavy for aircraft following it.

JET
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Mon Mar 26, 2001 11:54 am

I think the definition of "heavy" has something to do with gross weight. I believe that it is aircraft with a gross weight of over (not sure)! I know that the Tristar is defined as a "heavy".
 
JETPILOT
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RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:00 pm

32 members to change a lightbulb and counting.

JET
 
Guest

RE: Definition Of "heavy"

Tue Mar 27, 2001 10:14 am

Jusr for your information an Heavy in Canada is considered and aircraft of 300,000 lbs or over.

From the CARs http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/cars/cars/821e.htm

"light aircraft" - An aircraft certificated for a maximum take-off weight of 5700 kilograms (12,500 pounds) or less.

"medium aircraft" - An aircraft certificated for a maximum take-off weight of more than 5700 kilograms (12,500 pounds), but
less than 136000 kilograms (300,000 pounds).

"heavy aircraft" - An aircraft certificated for a maximum take-off weight of 136000 kilograms (300,000 pounds) or more.


Nicolas

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